Harold Hillman, April 23, 2021

Harold Hillman April 23, 2021

SAMANTHA BRENNER: So my name is Samantha Brenner, and I am here with Harold Hillman to talk about his experiences at Muhlenberg College. Our goal is to collect oral histories of people's unique experiences during their years as students to preserve the information for future generations to access. The oral history's are an integral part of our course, The History of Diversity and Inclusion at Muhlenberg College. We are meeting on Zoom on April Twenty-Third, 2021.

So we're going to start with the consent. Thank you so much for your willingness to speak with us today. To start, can you please state your full name and spell it for me?

HAROLD HILLMAN: It's Harold Sidney Hillman. H-a-r-o-l-d S-i-d-n-e-y H-i-l-l-m-a-n

SB: Thank you. Will you please share the year you graduated from Muhlenberg College?

HH: 1977.

SB: Thank you. Do you consent to this interview today?

HH: I do.

SB: Do you consent to having this interview transcribed, digitized and made publicly available online and searchable format?

HH: Yes.

SB: Do you consent to having this interview be stored in the archives of Muhlenberg College?

HH: Yes.

SB: Do you consent to Muhlenberg College and researchers using your interview for educational purposes in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations and other formats?

HH: Yes.

SB: And lastly, do you understand that you are not receiving any monetary compensation for your time today and you are not required to participate by Muhlenberg College?

HH: Yes.

SB: Should we start with a question? Yeah. Okay. So to start with the questions, I'd like to turn to your early life and ask how you became interested and sought out the college experience. Who were your major influences and how did you know you wanted to attend Muhlenberg College?

HH: Well, Samantha, my early influences. I knew that I was going to attend 00:02:00college when I was five. My father was born in 1900 in Georgia, in the state of Georgia, and so he never went to school. It was illegal then in the South to educate little Black kids. And so he and his siblings all they literally worked in the cotton fields at the age of five, six, seven or so. So my father never attended school, and interestingly enough, he never learned to read formally. But my sister and I, my sister is two years younger than me. And we didn't know that. We thought that my father, you know, was quite the reader because every 00:03:00day when he came home from work-- he was a laborer. He was an elevator repairman at the U.S. Naval Station in Washington, D.C. and he would come home every evening from work and he would put me on one knee and my sister on the other knee and he would pull an encyclopedia off of the shelf and he would start reading to us. And we looked forward to that every day, every single day. He came home and we started-- my sister and I would go jump on his lap and he would read to us for about 15 minutes or so. It was a daily routine.

And then, when I was in second grade and had started to learn to read myself, my father stopped reading to us. And my sister and I were really disappointed. We were just confused. It was such a joyful spot in our day. And so I said to my 00:04:00mother-- I was seven. And I said to my mother, "Why won't daddy read us anymore? He won't read." And my mother sat me and my sister down and said, "Your father never learned to read. He doesn't know how to read," and we went like, "What are you talking about?" You know, it was incredulous at seven. He reads to us every day. And my mother explained to us that your father wanted to instill a real love for knowledge and books. And now that you are learning to read, he's aware that you are probably going to. He's going to be put on the spot at some point. And that was a profound, profound thing for me.

My father called me Dr. Hillman when I was-- he started calling me Dr. Hillman when I was four. He would pull those encyclopedias off the shelf and he would 00:05:00just flip through the pages and he would tell us fascinating stories about places that he had never been to. And it was him, it was my father-- who was the catalyst behind me believing that I was going to university. My relatives started to call me Dr. Hillman. So at 5 and at 6, whenever I would go over to visit my aunts, my uncles, they all called me "Doc." And so I felt like I was on a predestined path to university.

My father's point being that when he was a kid and because it was illegal to teach black kids to read in 1900, he thought that there must be something in those books. There must be something, there must be some gold in those books. If 00:06:00they don't want us in there. And so I became an avid reader, an avid reader. My sister did as well. And both of us became authors as a result of the inspiration of a parent. And I often say to people, if you tell a kid that he or she is going to be crap, it will probably manifest itself. If you tell a kid that he or she will be an astronaut, they'll probably be an astronaut and that was a real insightful awakening for me. So I was destined for college. I just knew it.

And when I was in middle school or junior high school, they call it middle school over here, I had made the choice when going into high school to leave my neighborhood school in Washington, D.C., which was called Spingarn College. I 00:07:00mean, Spingarn High School, and to attend McKinley High School in Washington, D.C., which had a great reputation for its students going on to college. And so I got accepted out of my school district to attend McKinley. And that really set the stage then for me in my senior year in high school to apply to a number of colleges, including Muhlenberg. And that was sort of my path towards college.

Susan Falciani Maldonado: Well, Hailey has joined us. So, Hailey, I don't know if you want to jump in with the next question and also introduce yourself.

Hailey Petrus: Yeah. So hi. My name is Hailey. I'm a sophomore at Muhlenberg. My intended major is business with a minor in innovation and entrepreneurship. And I'm the president of the Black Student Association here. And my next-

HH: Fantastic.

HP: Thank you. And the next question is, so could you describe for us what it was like entering Muhlenberg? What ways were you involved in social and curricular activities? And what were some of the more memorable moments during your years here?

HH: Oh, let's see how to-- So in my senior year, the first semester of senior year, so in the fall of 1976, in D.C. they sponsored the, at the D.C. National Guard Armory, every year they had a college fair where colleges and universities from around the U.S. would all pile into representatives from colleges, would pile into the armory. And then they invited busloads of seniors to the Armory. I think we had about two hours each. Each high school had about two hours where 00:09:00the students would mill about and the tables were lined up there. And so I had no-- I had no inclination towards any particular college or university. So I went over and sat down at Georgetown University's table and picked up an application, but I was largely just sort of moving around the tables and had probably about six or seven applications and college looking at, you know, little pamphlets and things like that. And I was getting a bit tired. My arms would fall. I was getting tired. There were no seats at other tables.

And I was in the "M" section and there was this woman sitting at the table, a Black woman. Her name was Janice Williams, and Janice was in the admissions 00:10:00office at Muhlenberg. And there were two seats at our table empty. So I plopped down at the seat, I plopped down in the seat. And she started to talk about Muhlenberg College. And we chatted for about the better part of a half hour. It was time to leave. I left, went home and really pondered my choices.

I ended up applying to four universities and including Muhlenberg and low and behold, I was accepted by Muhlenberg. This is in the day when, of course, all communication was by mail. And so I applied and I don't know, maybe two months later, I received a letter from Muhlenberg College saying that I had been accepted and I was over the moon because that was a big deal. There was a big 00:11:00deal for my father. It was a big deal for my mother, was a big deal for all of my relatives. Dr. Hillman was on his way to college. And so I didn't know anything about-- I didn't know anything about Muhlenberg. I didn't know anything really about affirmative action. I didn't know anything about diversity and inclusion. All of those were constructs that would eventually unfold in my life. So I would say that I didn't do my best homework on Muhlenberg to appreciate what I was stepping into.

I grew up in D.C. D.C. was and still is predominantly a predominantly Black city. My neighborhood was completely Black. All of my schools, my elementary school, my junior high school, my high school had, I think, two white students. But that was my environment. As a matter of fact, I had never prior to stepping 00:12:00foot on Muhlenberg's campus, I had never had a conversation with another white kid. I never I had never sat down and actually met and had a conversation with a kid who was white. And so that gives you some context then on my experience, when my father, my brother, my mother and my sister drove me up to Muhlenberg. We parked right there on-- I can't remember the street now-- off of Chew Street. Right across, and a college entry point, like a campus entry point right there. And they dropped me off. I had my foot locker. And they pulled off and I turned around and faced into the campus, and I would dare say my world changed forever.

It was quite the experience. I was assigned to Martin Luther dorm. I don't know if it's still there. Is it still there? Is it still there? There were, I think, five Black students admitted that year, so Muhlenberg was making a concerted effort at that point to diversify. But again, I just didn't have a construct in my psyche for diversity, inclusion, etc. And it was really magical for me because there I was for the first time in my life now, on my own, a young adult, a teen, 18 years old and facing into this new world. I found it a bit daunting. But the five Black students, we all sort of clumped together like this. We met 00:14:00each other immediately. I didn't know anything about social kinship theory then. The notion that no matter where you are in the world, you gravitate towards people who look like you, remind you of you, and there we were clustered together.

And I, I would say that it was really like an adventure for me in my first year. And so there I was getting to know new students. A lot of the students were from Pennsylvania, particularly the Philadelphia area. I started making friends with the freshmen on the floor. It was a bit daunting for me in terms of that-- in terms of that first year. We would sit, all the Black students would sit together in the cafeteria, and some of the white students would say to us, why do all Black people sit together? And we would say, why do you all sit together? 00:15:00It was, you know, sort of hilarious in that respect.

I struggled my first semester academically, and that was a surprise for me because I had done very well as a student in middle school, and, especially in high school. But there I was now officially in college and for the first time really struggling academically. And I was trying to get my head around it. There were some white students who would remind us that we were tokens, was the word. And so that was when I began to get a sense of what affirmative action was all about. And believe me, in that day, it seemed to be tantamount to numbers and 00:16:00compared to today, where inclusion is a significant component in tandem with diversity.

And so, like many colleges and universities, I think Muhlenberg was wanting to increase, diversify, by bringing non-white students onto campus, but there was really no concerted effort around inclusion. Is what I'm-- Is what I'm saying. And so I felt like I was always standing out and that was a bit different for me and a bit awkward for me as well. I was introverted, shy and a bit to myself, and I didn't really have a sense of belonging broadly. It was me and the other Black students, but in terms of feeling incorporated into the culture, if you 00:17:00will, we were sort of on my own then.

I didn't experience anything negative in a real harsh kind of a way. I wandered into a party in my freshman year with a white girl who I had met over in one of the dorms, and everybody was drunk at that party and I heard the N-word and decided it was time for me to leave. That was the only time that happened to me at Muhlenberg. But it reminded me that there was sort of an "in" group and maybe perhaps an "out" group around it.

So in my first semester. Yeah, I struggled. I got I think it was three C's and two D's and I had a conversation with my parents when I went home at the end of 00:18:00that semester about whether or not this was really for me. And my mother in particular said, look, you know, there are other options, but you gotta, you know, so make a decision because I know this isn't a whole lot of fun for you. And then I went back that second semester and an interesting thing happened.

I never knew what a fraternity was and I never knew what rush was, you know, in that sense of "being rushed." But there was a lot of the freshmen on the floor who were being rushed in that second semester by fraternities, all the freshmen on the floor, except for the three Black freshmen. And so whereas the other freshmen were going down to the fraternities in the evening too, they were "courting" them and bringing them down, treating them to dinner, making them feel special, wanting to increase their membership, we weren't getting any invites and that really stood out for me in the sense of we know who these 00:19:00fraternities are and why aren't we getting invited down.

It was in February of 1978 during that rush season when it's right around 7:00 p.m. one evening, I got a knock on my door and I opened it up and there were three white freshmen standing there, and they were in some of my classes, and they lived on the same floor with me so I knew who they were. And they said, "Harold, we just talked to the upperclassmen down at the fraternity." The fraternity was Zeta Beta Tau. It was the only Jewish fraternity on campus, and they said "We talked to the upperclassmen and told them that there was this Black guy up in the dorm and he wasn't being rushed by any of the fraternities." 00:20:00And we said to them, "Hey, can we go up and invite Harold down for dinner?" And the upperclassmen of ZBT said, "Go get him. Go get him and bring him back down to dinner." And so I just finished a book and I wrote a story called Guess Who's Coming to Dinner from the famous movie.

That invitation to dinner that night changed my life. Significantly. I walked into the fraternity with those three white freshmen and the upperclassmen all got up from their seats, they came over to the door, they shook my hand, they welcomed me, and they led me to a seat at the table. It was a Thursday night. They were at ZBT on Thursday nights, it was the big dinner night and I had never seen anything like it. I sat down at the table. They were curious about me, had lots of questions, and for the very first time since walking onto that campus, I 00:21:00felt a sense of belonging. I didn't realize that, that sense of belonging had dissipated in the end of that first semester. But wow, it was powerful. And they invited me back down-- and invited me back down and then invited me to formally pledge ZBT.

My grades shot up significantly. So going from three C's and two D's to that second semester where I began to thrive. And really I didn't know much about Dr. Maslow and his hierarchy of needs then, but that need to belong was very real for me. And it's associated with thriving. And I literally began to thrive in 00:22:00that second semester. I earned three B's and two A's. And later in life, I would attribute that to feeling like I belonged and making the point that when people don't feel that they belong it does impact performance. I make that case in the business world now, but I certainly experienced that myself and my world changed significantly then.

Sitting with these kids at ZBT, these were kids who had come largely out of the Philadelphia area. Many of them were pre-med. Several who were pre-law. These were kids who were going to, after Muhlenberg, even go to medical school or graduate school. They had aspirations that were much bigger than mine. And it really sparked and inspired me to think big and to think broadly around it. I 00:23:00would eventually become president of ZBT in my senior year, which was an awesome experience for me. I jokingly tell my friends over here in New Zealand that I was Obama before there was Obama. And it happened in Zeta Beta Tau fraternity.

And so that was a real turning point for me. I knew I was going to make it. I knew that I belonged. And then things took off. Hailey, you want me to just continue talking about some experiences?

HP: Yes, that's fine.

HH: Would that be helpful? I majored in psychology. And I-- I actually went down that path towards pre-med. But I didn't like the-- I didn't like organic chemistry, I didn't like physics, I didn't like-- I just didn't like them. I just didn't. I was more-- at that point in time. Now, in terms of how some 00:24:00people are wired, you know, we're wired in different ways. And I was wired as a real social, gregarious kid. And I just had a real intense curiosity for human behavior. And so I majored in psychology and then went down that path and was really excited about it.

I was shy. I was bashful. And in my classes in my freshman year, very quiet. The professors tried to draw me out. I was sitting around a lot of the white kids who again were-- had gone to schools where, you know, they had the best of an education that high school kids can have. Many of them had studied for their SA, was it SATs? Yeah SATs back then, they had tutors. They knew how to study. When 00:25:00I went down to ZBT and was just hanging around the fraternity, I would see the upperclassmen studying. They would have index cards and then they would have highlighters and they would be going with it. [Motions with hands] And they would-- and I would dare say that I actually learned how to study in my second semester of my freshman year, just following the example of some of the fraternity brothers who were doing very well academically.

But I was pretty quiet. It was in my sophomore year when I took a sociology course. Dr. Baldridge was the professor's name and it was Sociology 101 or something like that. We were talking about civil rights. The topic in the course turned to civil rights. And Dr. Baldridge beckoned me to his office in my first 00:26:00semester of my sophomore year, and he said to me, "Harold, You're very quiet in class. And we are now on a topic on civil rights, and you need to bring your voice to the table and you need to share some perspective on what it's like to be Black in America." He said, "A number of these kids in this class-- in your class have never really sat down with a Black kid before to experience his or her perspective. And so you can't sit silent in class. You have to bring your perspective." And I said to Dr. Baldridge, "What's perspective?" And he said, "It's your life experience rolled up into what you would call it, bias or wisdom that only you can give." And that was the first time that any teacher or 00:27:00professor singled me out, pulled me in. I didn't know what mentoring was then, but he was mentoring me and he turned my voice on.

And I absolutely thrived in that class. I felt like a superstar. But the first time at Muhlenberg in a class and this was a white professor who sat me down and said to me, hey, your voice is going to make a huge difference in the impact that you can have. You need to learn how to bring perspective into a conversation. And that was a powerful moment for me. There was a galvanizing moment for me at Muhlenberg.

I had largely positive experiences at Muhlenberg. I began to do really well academically at that point. I knew that I wanted to be a psychologist and-- and 00:28:00so I just immersed myself fully in those courses. And what else, I worked in the admissions office. I was in a work study-- Muhlenberg extended a full scholarship to me because my parents couldn't afford university. And that was something that I was really grateful for. And to keep my grades up, which was something that was important to me, and Zeta Beta Tau also through their national fraternity also extended a couple of grants in terms of me just having a sufficient quality of living while I was there.

What else can I tell you? What else can I tell you?

SB: I guess I can jump in with another question. You talked about how Muhlenberg 00:29:00wanted to diversify their campus, but they really didn't have an effort surrounding inclusion. And in 1976, you wrote a piece in the "Muhlenberg Weekly" called "Black Faces Challenge to Identity Maintenance." And in the piece, it highlighted the Black student body population at Muhlenberg. But within colleges as a whole, I guess just thinking about this piece, what drew you to write it? Was it your experiences at Muhlenberg College and what kind of reaction did you want to get in the piece that was published in the paper?

HH: I haven't seen that since. I haven't seen that since the seventies, so I can't even remember what's in it. I think I was invited by the editor of the campus newsletter to write a piece and to provide some perspective on what it was like to be a Black student at Muhlenberg. Seriously, Samantha, I have no 00:30:00idea what I wrote here. You need to send it to me. But I think I probably was just sharing some perspective on what it's like to be one of a handful of students there. And I remember writing it. I remember showing it to my mother. And she was pretty proud of me because there I was, you know, in the campus newsletter. But for the life of me, I cannot remember what I wrote.

SFM: I can, that will be in an email to you as soon as we're done here.

HH: That is-- that would be-- that would be fantastic to see that.

SFM: I sent it around for everybody to read this morning. So we are, yes-- so it's a little unfair. We're much more up on it than you are. But one thing I'll just interject just slightly here is that in that piece you referenced--the Association of Black Collegians was the BSA of its day. And in that piece, you had mentioned that when you arrived, there were about 20 Black students. And by 00:31:00that point, when you were, I think, a junior, possibly a senior, at that point, there were only 10. Can you-- can you speak a little bit about what you remember of that organization and efforts to infuse it with energy or you know, events that they had and anything about it?

HH: Yeah, we had a-- in Martin Luther dorm, in the basement. We had a room that was the BSA, Black Students Association, and we would meet up once a week-- the Black students. And it was really us just basically sharing stories and experiences and a strong affiliation, all the Black students knew each other pretty well. And it was, again, that whole notion of social kinship. And it was-- it was a helpful organization in terms of, again, a sense of belonging. 00:32:00But I think also we probably wanted to make a difference and have some impact, particularly in terms of making life a bit easier for Black students who were at that point integrating into a white college environment.

So it was a-- I don't-- I'm trying to remember if we had a president. So, yeah, we had a president. We had a vice president. I don't think I was. I don't think I held a position in terms of formal position with BSA. But-- but in my estimation, it seemed to fade a little bit and fizzle a little bit towards my junior or my senior year.

But by then, I was living in the fraternity. And fully immersed in that fraternity environment. So I probably detached a little bit, not fully, because, 00:33:00again, the Black students all-- we all held tight. But I was the only Black student who belonged to a fraternity at that time. We see. So that's how that's really my memory was. It was a-- it was-- the Black students were-- we all had a fair degree of familiarity with each other, considered each other to be a part of our respective support system. And so, yeah, that was the BSA at the time-- at the time was a real opportunity-- it provided an opportunity for us to just get together and talk. That's what we did. We just talked-- we talked about experiences, how we could support each other. Those types of things.

HP: So thinking about your time at Muhlenberg, if you could start over, is there 00:34:00anything that you would do different? And in what ways did your experiences at Muhlenberg impact the trajectory of your life, as well as what would you like to see for future students of color at Muhlenberg College?

HH: Muhlenberg was a positive experience for me. I'm really grateful to Muhlenberg. It gave me a springboard into the rest of my life, which I really am grateful for. Muhlenberg was a largely positive experience for me. It did change the trajectory of my life big time.

My academic major was-- my academic adviser as a psychology major was Dr. Tom Maiser. And I really liked Dr. Maiser. At that time, students were assigned a faculty member as an academic advisor and I was in my junior year. And Dr. 00:35:00Maiser and I were talking about graduate school. He was a psychologist. He had a PhD in Psychology. And by then, I had determined I wanted to have a PhD in Psychology. And so Dr. Maiser and I were talking about a number of different options in terms of graduate school.

And he said to me, "Harold, why don't you apply to Harvard University for a degree in education?" He had gone down a similar path. And I said to him, "I'll never get into Harvard. That's it. What are you talking about?"

"You will get into Harvard University," he said, "give it a shot here. I think you'll get into Harvard." And I applied to a number of other graduate schools.

This was now in my senior year at Muhlenberg and I applied to Harvard. The other 00:36:00programs that I applied to were PhD programs in Psychology. The program at Harvard was a Master's degree in education. And Dr. Maiser said, "Look, apply to Harvard. It will do wonders for your career." And I said, "OK." I largely applied to Harvard because my academic adviser suggested that I do so. And lo and behold, a few months later the envelope dropped in the door. And there was an acceptance letter to Harvard University, inspired by this professor, and I was over the moon.

It was a bit of a dilemma because I had been admitted to the University of Pittsburgh and accepted into the PhD program in psychology. And I went to Dr. 00:37:00Maiser and said, "What do I do? What do I do?" And he said, "Call up the University of Pittsburgh. Tell them you've been admitted to Harvard for a master's program, a one year master's program, and ask if you can defer your admission to the clinical program by a year." And the University of Pittsburgh said, "Yes, we will defer your admission by a year. Have a wonderful time at Harvard," and off I went. So Muhlenberg was the catalyst for me to take a jaunt up into Cambridge, Massachusetts. I did very well there. Which would then spin me back in the direction of studying to be a psychologist in a PhD program.

So that was two examples. There were two examples of white professors. There were no Black professors at Muhlenberg at that time. But I often highlight the role that two white professors played in my trajectory. One who encouraged me to 00:38:00bring my voice in perspective, which was a turning point in my confidence in the sense that I really had something to contribute that others might be able to benefit from. And Dr. Maiser, who just kept prodding me to "apply, apply to Harvard" as an idea. And it just turned out to be a fantastic experience for me.

So the experience at Muhlenberg, I just had largely positive experiences. Like I said, I've never had what I would call a horrific negative experience in terms of encounters. And I got used to standing out, that whole notion of fitting in and standing out. Prior to Muhlenber, my big emphasis was on fitting in as an 00:39:00introverted junior high school and high school student-- I wanted to fit in. And part of it was-- a part of that was me not yet coming to terms with the fact that I was gay. And I was still trying to "get my Black on" in a white college setting. So being gay took the sort of a secondary seat.

But I had carried that sense of just needing to fit in so that I don't create too much attention was sort of my strategy when I was a high school kid. And Muhlenberg actually, I had no choice but to stand out. And so I got comfortable with standing out. My self-esteem increased significantly. And as the four years progressed, I found that I was just more confident and found that I was becoming more literate about the world, about people and those types of things. And so a 00:40:00really positive experience, really positive at Muhlenberg College. Really cool.

HP: I know you, like-- you mentioned that your experience was really positive, but if there was one thing while you were here that you could have maybe changed or made better; if they gave you, I don't know, one wish, one-- Was there anything that you'd think would be like, OK, that's the thing I like, I want to change, I want to make better. Something you want Muhlenberg to work on.

HH: Yeah, it would probably fall in that category of inclusion, and that is maybe making a concerted effort for students who do stand out for whatever reason on any demographic factor, don't have to navigate that path alone in sort of a hit and miss strategy. There was no strategy in terms of helping students who were different than the majority to actually find their way in. So we were sort of on our own. We had Janice Williams over in the admissions office and she was really cool.

And so I worked over there part time in terms of work-study. But a number of us gravitated towards Janice. She was really our mentor on campus, which made a huge difference for me, but that was it in terms of welcome to a new culture, if you will. And good luck sort of navigating your way in. Some Black students did well, some Black students left. As the numbers that you indicated earlier, Susan, would indicate that the numbers dwindled over those years. I think a big part of that was the fact that there was no concerted effort on the part of the college to help students who were minority students actually find their way. 00:42:00Perhaps this was finding an upperclassman to pair up with every freshman coming on board. The BSA, we were largely on our own, without a-- what I would call an adult faculty member or administration member sort of, you know, helping us navigate and figure out what was what and those types of things.

So I would say-- Hailey, what I would say is that what would have probably made a difference for me in that first semester when I struggled would have been some kind of a roadmap and helping to put the experience in perspective for me. We were sort of on our own, navigate your way in and find your way. And so I would say that that would make a-- that would make a-- that would have made a big 00:43:00difference in terms of me getting more immediate traction in my first semester there.

And yeah, diversity. Diversity back then was a numbers game. There were-- there would be occasional white students who would use it as I mentioned earlier the word "token" or "quota". There were a couple of times in my freshman year when I was reminded that I might be taking the seat of someone who was more qualified than me to be there. But these conversations were more-- we were all 18-, 19-, 20-year-olds sort of finding our way.

There were a lot of white students on the floor who were curious about my experience of attending a predominantly white college at that-- at that time. And again, I would say nothing dire or-- or daunting for me to encounter in 00:44:00terms of explicit racism. It just wasn't a part of my experience, except for just a couple of incidents. But it wasn't a part of my experience at Muhlenberg. And so I would just say that if we had to do it all over again, it would've helped to be assisted in a bit more in terms of a structured process to fit in without losing who you are as a person.

HP: Thank you.

SB: And you also talked a little bit about your relationship with Dr. Maiser and Dr. Baldridge.

HH: Yes.

SB: And just thinking about your relationship with them, was there any-- were there any other professors that you've taken their class or that you have the same relationship with or really mentored you? And were there any classes that 00:45:00stood out to you that you really enjoyed other than the one class you mentioned?

HH: There was a professor on the other end of the spectrum who taught Botany. He was a botanist and he was in the science department. I can't remember his name. My fraternity brothers, many of whom were pre-med, had to take his course. It was a required course. And they described him as a bigot and a racist who-- I can't think of his name right now. And they would come back and say, "Harold, you know--" because there were no Black students in that program and in that class. And they would come back and say, "Harold, this professor said this and that. He said-- we don't think he likes Black people. He makes jokes all the time" and those types of things. And so I had the option of an elective in my 00:46:00junior year. And so I signed up for this class. And my fraternity brothers were all going like, "You're in his class? You're in class?" I went, "Yeah, I'm in this class." And I never experienced any of that. I had never heard any of that when I was in this class because-- I actually signed up because I was just curious about whether or not-- and they were curious about whether or not he would carry on if he actually had a Black student in his class. Not a peep from him-- I actually enjoyed that class, I got a B in that class. And it was-- had nothing to do with my major in terms of psychology. But I just wanted to, I guess I was curious in the-- in the sense of-- I wonder if this guy will actually say those things if there's a Black student sitting in this class and he never did. Never did.

He was real curious about me. I had cornrows at the time. And he was intrigued and fascinated by my cornrows. He never said anything, but he just absolutely could not take his head, his eyes off my hair. And-- and I was just there. I saw-- what I signed up for that class just to see if-- I just wanted to see if, in fact, what I was hearing about him would play itself out. But never, ever, not once got anything from him on that. That was a different experience in terms of a professor. But the--Dr. Maiser and Baldridge were the ones who stood out for me in a significant way at Muhlenberg.

SFM: Well, I think it's interesting, so you've mentioned Janice Williams.

HH: Yes.

SFM: We actually the other day-- we spoke to Daniel Bosket, who was class of 00:48:00seventy-five, and he's still in Allentown and he's been very involved. She-- she ended up very involved with the school board district. He is able to put us in touch with her. So she is actually somebody that we would like to speak to this summer.

HH: Janice is--Janice is alive and well?

SFM: And in Allentown. Yes, lives right down the street from him, apparently.

HH: Goodness gracious. I absolutely as a-- as a result of this conversation, I please, please, please help me find a way to send an email to Janice Williams. I would love to do that.

SFM: I will as soon as we get-- he promised to put us in touch. So I will-- I will definitely do that. Is there anything that you would say-- this is something that, you know, Kate and Tony and I often in other realms of interviews that we-- that we ask, is there anything that you would say to Muhlenberg students today, particularly students of color? Recommendations, 00:49:00words of wisdom?

HH: Yeah. I would say to back yourself. I would-- I would give them a little bit of more insight around the inherent tension associated with fitting in and standing out. But the stronger gravitational pull towards fitting in where all of a sudden you start to step away from your authentic self and begin to, if anything, mimic or replicate the behaviors of the majority in the interest of fitting in, being deemed acceptable, enhancing your chances of being accepted. Sometimes you really do step away from your authentic self. I didn't know much at that time. I didn't really know much about the tension between those two 00:50:00extremes fitting in and standing out.

And so I would say to minority students at Muhlenberg today, I would just-- I would just lay out that continuum and say that you're probably going to experience this pull towards the majority where if you don't have what you would consider to be the-- I was a-- I was a shy freshman. And again, I wasn't used to bringing perspective in those types of things. And so my inclination probably was to fit in. And I couldn't hide who I was. But I was relatively mute in my freshman year. It really wasn't until the second semester and then into my sophomore, junior and senior year where I began to turn the volume up on my voice a bit. So my advice would be, don't mute yourself. In terms of who you 00:51:00are, listen keenly to the inner coach, which reminds you that you are a powerful person. You're a beautiful person. Don't begin to minimize what makes you different. In the interest of surviving, essentially. So I would really emphasize that whole realm of standing up.

And I would do what Dr. Baldridge said, which was very often when you are the only woman or the only Black person or the only gay person or whatever it may be in terms of demographic, you really should see it as a bit of an obligation to bring that perspective, to broaden the view and the point of view and those types of things. And so my advice and my counsel would be, don't lose yourself 00:52:00in majority culture. Find a way, really find a way to sort of acknowledge and demonstrate that you are very proud of who you are and your background. Those types of things, is what I would do.

I would also-- I would, I think it does help in terms of pairing people up, the buddy system, those types of things. And so in addition to colleges and universities, Muhlenberg in particular, back then, it would have been helpful to have a program that helped integrate students into the-- into the campus. And it might have been a good idea with-- with the other Black students, sort of paired us up a bit, sort of a big brother-big sister scenario of just somebody who you knew that you could go and talk to and have conversations with in those types of things.

SFM: Thank you so much. Does anybody else have any questions that you'd like to ask Harold now? And do you have any questions for us?

HH: How many Black students, Hailey, are at Muhlenberg? I've-- I'm dying to know.

HP: Honestly, I don't know.

HH: Is it more than two hands?

HP: Yes, more than two hands! There's quite a few in each class. So the Association is pretty large right now. So, yeah, there's-- there's a lot more, but I don't have an exact number.

HH: But that's good to hear. Like in the 20s, 30s?

HP: I think probably like the 30s or 40s.

HH: Okay, okay.

HP: Yes, it's a lot more. We also do now have an Emerging Leaders program, which is kind of what you were talking about. They've started-- so I'm a sophomore, so 00:54:00when I was an incoming freshman, I had previous Emerging Leaders. It's like a pre-orientation program.

HH: I love it.

HP: Like students of color come in early on our Emerging Leaders program. We get like mentors and we get to like, see the campus, the freshmen come in. So we do have that now. It was a lot of help. It did help integrate us into the college and we got to see and like meet with the Career Center and stuff like that and get the resources a little bit ahead of time before like other freshmen came in. And it was a great role of help.

HH: That's excellent to hear. That's exactly what I was trying to convey a little bit earlier. It would have been helpful to just sort of learn to navigate my way into a completely different culture back in '73. So that's really cool to hear. And BSA is still alive and well! Congratulations, Madam President!

SFM: And one other this is-- this is more Hailey's news, but actually, for the first time in this fall, they-- the BSA is going to have their own house.

HH: Get out! Excellent. By the way, are there any sororities now at Muhlenberg college? There were no sororities.

HP: Yes.

HH: There are sororities, excellent!

SFM: Nineteen-- 1984 was a big year. That's when sororities came in. So there were-- there were three initially. But that also was the year at which they finally did hire the first Black faculty member, was in 1984.

HH: Eighty-four.

SFM: Yeah. And that was also the same year that they first hired someone to be a minority affairs director too, you know, and that passed. And you'll see when we 00:56:00share our site with you, when it's-- when it's finished, there's some of this timeline information. But to actually start to have someone whose professional role was to concentrate on matters of inclusion, but always recruitment. That was always a big part of it. But that was-- that was the first year that they-- both of those things occurred at the same time in eighty-four, along with sororities.

HH: In 1984 alone. Yeah. Fantastic. It is the-- if I-- if I could do it all over again, if I had a magic wand and, and go back to the sixties and early seventies in what was called affirmative action, the "D", the diversity, "D" and "I." The "I" didn't exist as you all may know, that wasn't even the word that we used. I didn't even know-- inclusion only popped up certainly in my realm here in New Zealand over the last two decades. So I would probably put "I" before "D" -- 00:57:00inclusion and diversity and some matter of fact, I would make it a point to put the "I" before the "D".

I use the analogy of soil and plants. And for me, inclusion is about healthy soil and if you're going to put healthy plants in unhealthy soil, the end result is going to be they will wither and die eventually. And back in the early days of affirmative action, and certainly in my experience at Muhlenberg was, the emphasis was solely on the "D." And that is, let's try to get new diverse plants on campus, but there was no focus on cultivating soil to make it rich and inclusive and that is the-- I think the insight and the lesson learned from America's journey on the diversity path, is that I showed up three decades later and really in many respects should have precluded the "D." If you get the "I" 00:58:00right, the "D" will. You'll-- you'll find healthy plants starting to thrive attracted to that healthy soil, but also thriving in it. So to use that analogy, it sounds like Muhlenberg has started to focus on the soil, started to focus on the soil back in the eighties.

SFM: And there is still much to be done. It's-- Muhlenberg has had its fits and starts. It really-- their efforts will be made and they'll fall on their face and then more funding and more efforts will be made. And then, so it is-- a march of progress is not-- not linear.

HH: Well. Yeah. Yeah, look, my experience with Muhlenberg was a pretty positive experience, all told. And in retrospect, I know of Black students and minority 00:59:00students who have had far less positive experiences. And, you know, those who went to school right around the same time that I did and even afterwards there. So I owe Muhlenberg a lot in terms of providing that opportunity for me. A full scholarship, which, you know, just really grateful for the springboard into the rest of my life, which was a really-- has just been a really enriching and invigorating trajectory for me. And the foundation is Muhlenberg.

I was there, by the way, in 1976 when Billy Joel performed it. He performed in Philadelphia and all of us, the fraternity, a lot of the fraternity brothers and 01:00:00we went down because the song "Allentown" was, was number one then and that was one of the highlights was going down to Philadelphia to see Billy Joel in concert singing "Allentown."

SFM: Thank you so much for this. Thank you for meeting with us so early and, and for sharing your memories and your stories. And we just are, we are so grateful for-- for your time and thank you.

HH: Thank you

SFM: We will prepare this and transcribe it and send you copies so you'll have the opportunity to review and redact if you choose. But we hope that, we hope that we share it in its entirety. So over the-- over the course of it, we'll get that to you probably-- well we have to get through this to the finals and everything-- but, you know, over the course of the next month or so, we'll get that typed up and shared. And then we will, well, I'm going to share your article with you right away, of course. And as soon as I get contact information for Janice.

HH: Yes!

SFM: But also, as you know, as-- as the project comes together in addition to the oral histories, the actual websites that the students are working on as we go through the archives and tell the different stories from the different perspectives they're working on. So we will make sure you see all of that.

HH: Fantastic. I really appreciate that. I am-- I am going to write to Janice Williams this weekend when you send me her contact details. Wow. Wow. Absolutely. I want to say, I want to say, as a 66-year- old man now, I want to say to her, thank you. Because she really was our mother hen. You know what I mean? She looked after us. We could go over to the admissions office. And I guess she was really the equivalent of the guy you mentioned that had been assigned to the role in 1984. And so I really look forward to reaching out to her. Thank you all for the opportunity to connect. I hope this adds some value for you.

Kate Ranieri: Immeasurable, thank you so very much. It's just been a delight. Thank you.

HH: Thank you all. Take care.