00:00:00ROBERTA MEEK OCTOBER 20, 2021
KATE RANIERI: So today is October 20th, 2021. I'm Kate Ranieri. I'm here
interviewing Roberta Meek at Muhlenberg College. Thank you very much. And so I
would like to start with, if we may, your early life. Tell me about what it was
that made you seek out the college experience and then who were your influences
to go to college and why Muhlenberg.
ROBERTA MEEK: Well, I came from a family where it was kind of an expectation
that we would go to college, which to some degree is why I ended up with
Muhlenberg, because that expectation meant that though I probably, in
retrospect, was not ready to independently learn without structure and was
enrolled at Yale University as a traditional student in the class of 1978, I
00:01:00didn't last for a lot of reasons, including, you know, being one of very, very
few black students on the campus at that time, but also--I don't know that they
even had a name for it back then--undiagnosed, probably because it didn't even
exist in people's vernacular, ADHD. Right. So all of that combined meant I did
not succeed in finishing. Thank God I got decent grades.
But the people who influenced me were all of the members of my family, my
grandmother on my-- my paternal grandmother was born and raised in Springfield,
Illinois. And as a black woman, you know, in the early 1900s, even though she
00:02:00was actually valedictorian of her high school class, was actually demoted so
that a white student could get that position. And although she did have some
college experience as a young person, she wasn't able to complete that for all
kinds of reasons, which frankly, I don't even know. You know, it's something
that I learned about her actually kind of recently. But she did start taking
college classes in her 70s. So I had lots of role models of returning to school,
so that after I, you know, dropped out for the second time from Yale, had moved
to Allentown from Philadelphia with my ex-husband because of his job...I started
taking my very first class at Muhlenberg in 1980 and-- as an attempt to return
00:03:00to school. And I had been an Afro-American Studies major at Yale, which is now
probably African-American studies. I don't think they converted to Africana, but
there was no such thing at Muhlenberg. So history, which was a love of mine, was
the course-- the first course I took.
And why Muhlenberg? Because in Allentown it was close by. But importantly, I had
heard of Muhlenberg because my very best friend in childhood-- her father was a
Lutheran minister and lived up the block from us at the Lutheran Seminary in
Philadelphia. And he had always wanted her to go to Muhlenberg College as a
Lutheran college. So I had heard of it. I hadn't heard of some of the other
00:04:00institutions around. Plus, Muhlenberg was one of the only liberal arts schools
in the area that was actually at that time offering evening courses for adults.
It was called the Evening College at that time. So I think that answers that
part of the question. But that's how I ended up at Muhlenberg. And then, you
know, it was, of course, here, the vicissitudes of life get in the way. So
children, divorce, all of that, attempts to come back multiple times. But
finally, in 2004, after my daughter-in-law, who was not even out of her late
teens, had two children and was taking college credits, I thought, I guess I
don't really have an excuse not to finish my degree. So I came back in 2004,
taking two classes every semester through what had become Wescoe [the Wescoe
00:05:00School], which has now changed names again. But I took a traditional major, so I
was a history major, which meant that I had experience with lots of the faculty
who were not adjuncts through Wescoe and graduated in 2006, proudly.
KR: Yay, thank you. And I believe there was a further-- you furthered your
career and your education elsewhere.
RM: Yeah, having been a history major, I got involved in a fabulous project,
which was an oral history project actually, with a couple of the professors at
Muhlenberg who were collaborating with the senior center in Allentown and
00:06:00Touchstone Theater in Bethlehem. And it was an oral history project which began
as an oral history of the African-American experience in Allentown, but then
expanded to Bethlehem and Easton over the years. And so I got involved in that,
which ended up turning into an original theatrical production, which I got
involved in. And all of that, that particular process, plus an independent study
course that I took, and then my honors thesis that I did, all made me want to
continue. And so I went to Temple as a history doctoral student. And what I was
really looking to do was actually not teach. I had no thoughts of being a
professor. I actually wanted to do some more creative work like I had done with
00:07:00that production. And one of the things I knew was important was to get some of
the funding that we had gotten. It was required to have people who had specific
credentials. So I thought, you know, if I were to have some of those
credentials, maybe I could, you know, spearhead some additional projects.
And then I ended up, guess I'm not supposed to say names, but someone in the
Media and Communication department who I knew from other work I was doing at the
time, allowed me to teach a summer course because they needed someone to teach
race and representation, which is one of your courses, and you were kind enough,
Kate, I guess I can say your name since you're on here, you were kind enough to
share your syllabus and all kinds of other things because I was like "[T]each?
I'm not even done with grad school. What are you talking about?" But she had
00:08:00seen me in the work that I had done and knew that I could do the teaching thing.
And that's how I ended up starting to teach in the summer of 2009 and fell in
love with it, you know, and therefore took me in a whole different direction,
which was, you know, my final career before retiring, which is happening at the
end of this year as a conclusion to this particular journey began, kind of, out
of just, happenstance, that I needed a job that summer and ended up being a
wonderful 12 years or 13-- almost 13 years of work.
KR: Lots of things going on, too, during that time.
RM: Oh, yes.
KR: If we can just go back just for a moment, think about when you were a
00:09:00student, I'm assuming, that-- that could be totally false--that you probably
didn't have time for a lot of social activities on campus when you were on the
Wescoe School, is that or did you?
RM: No, because I was a single parent, I was self-employed, so I was a
consultant doing a bunch of different things. But what I will say is because I
was not in one of the accelerated programs and was in a traditional major, I
ended up learning a lot more about things going on. So I would go to talks and
those kinds of things, because at that time-- I would say it's improved
somewhat. But for the most part, adult students don't necessarily even know
about a lot of the things that are going on, even if they had the time. And so I
was fortunate that, you know, as I said, I was in a major where I would hear of
00:10:00things because I-- and because I was a consultant and was flexible, I could take
day classes, you know, Saturday classes. I wasn't always all adults.
So I learned about things from other, you know, traditional-age[d] students who
were part of the residential college experience. I did not do social things
because number one, people are-- especially half of the classes tended to be,
you know, as young or younger than my children, but also because I didn't, you
know-- the college experience, which I experienced all the way back in the
1970s, you know, you're meeting new friends, you're making lifelong friends, all
of that. That wasn't part of what I even required out of a college degree and
the program by the time I was taking it as an adult. But as I said, I did attend
00:11:00a lot of things that-- and one of the things I did as I became, a teacher of
students who were also adults because I often made sure that my classes included
Wescoe students, was I would make sure that they were aware of a lot of the
things that happened on campus, because that was something that-- for example,
the honors program I found by-- because I'm a nerd and I was reading the catalog
and found out that there was such a thing and therefore, you know, asked about
it and pursued that. Otherwise I wouldn't have known it even existed.
KR: Thank you, so go ahead.
SUSAN FALCIANI MALDONADO: Could I ask one?
KR: Yeah, course.
SFM: Roberta, thank you. So as you said, when you first in 1980, I believe, when
you first started attending courses at Muhlenberg, even the early precursors of
00:12:00the Africana studies program were not yet extant, even in any courses being
offered. But we know that by around '84 or so, by the mid-eighties, there had
started to be at least a Black history course taught by a white professor. But
of course you were a student at that time and perhaps intermittently. Can you
speak at all about the first time you became aware of any offerings or movements
in this direction?
RM: The first time that I actually took any courses like this and was really
aware of it, was when I returned in 2004. I had taken courses in the early 1980s
and then wasn't able to because of raising my son and then in the 1990s, I came
back and by that time they had a program through the Evening College, which
00:13:00again, I can't remember when Wescoe became the name, but they had a program
where you could get a degree like kind of in human resource stuff, which, you
know, I was a unionist at the time, so it was like, that could be useful. So I,
that's the first time I actually tried to matriculate was in the early 1990s. So
I wasn't-- at that point I wasn't even taking traditional courses. I was taking
specific courses that were evening courses. So, yeah, I don't think I really
became aware of any of that until I returned. And Charles Anderson and Mary
Lawler were in the midst of trying to propose that because at the time I
returned, they had, I don't remember if it was African-American or I think it
00:14:00was African-American, not Black, they had like in the history department, they
had a way that you could almost get like a certification, basically, that you
could kind of track with that way.
So obviously, there must have been courses and they were in the midst of trying
to get it approved, which might have even been the year I graduated in 2006. If
not, it was right after that where they ended up having an African-American
Studies program that became official. And that's when I started taking classes,
which is also how I got involved in the project that I talked about. So, yeah, I
wasn't aware of when that got started. And I do-- I know the professor and
admired the professor who started the program or teaching, who also started
courses in women's studies and public health and all of that. So. Trailblazer.
00:15:00
KR: Yes, God rest his soul.
SFM: And I will say as far as the naming thing is concerned, certainly feel free
to do so, it's just, if anything particularly pejorative were to come out, that
would --might call for a redaction. But yes, Dan Wilson, may he rest. He was a--
RM: Oh, and I just mentioned two other people, so therefore...
SFM: And that's what made me think of it, of course, this is part of building
the history is who were the players?
RM: Who were the players? That's right. Well, then I really would like to
actually name a couple of people, which is Su-- Susan Clemens-Bruder was my
mentor and adviser who worked with my independent study courses and was the
advisor on my honor's thesis. And Judy Ridner was the other professor that I was
working with, and Ethel Drayton-Craig, who was the Multicultural Life director
00:16:00at that time, and those are the folks who I worked really closely with on the
Black history project that we were working on. And I don't know that I would
have ended up in grad school or in the play or a lot of other things, if it had
not been for for them and it was, Judy Ridner's class, which was the
African-American experience, part two, which is-- I teach, I've taught now--
which actually introduced me to the project that I ended up working on because
she was going to be on sabbatical and said, "Well, there's this; I'm not going
to be teaching courses, but you might want to talk to Susan Clemens because she
is working on a project we're working on" and blah, blah, blah. So, those names
are really important because one of the first collections of oral histories on
the Black experience in the entire Valley, you know, there's been several others
00:17:00that have been happening in recent years, funded by some of the humanities
projects, et cetera, with Lehigh and and others. But, I mean, I don't know this
for sure, but I would venture to guess they were some of the first to, kind of,
make that happen.
KR: Names all sound kind of familiar, people that I've met, of course, worked
with. Thank you very much. For-- there's a few places that we were thinking
about and know that you have a lot of background as, not only a student from
what you've shared this far as in terms of your history and the history of the
black experience in the Lehigh Valley, but when we think about what's going on
at Muhlenberg, where-- what were your early recollections through today, if you
00:18:00will, of what-- and this is a broad question so, you know, I'm just going to
open up the floodgates here and [you] say whatever you want to add, in the sense
of-- when you first started, I know that when you started with "Race and
Representation" that summer, what was going on on campus in terms of their
concerns? Is your recollection of diversity, diversity or equity or inclusion or
just diversity? How did you-- how do you see it? Remember it?
RM: Well, actually, I'm going to go back a few years before that, when I was
still a student, between 2004 and 2006. At that time, the Black students on
campus, part of BSA, the Black Student Association, had a number of complaints
that they wanted to air and had approached the Dean of Admissions, I think,
00:19:00would have been the title at the time, and the institution as a whole,
basically. And I happened to see that there was a BSA meeting, I happened to
have been involved at Yale and the Black Student Association at Yale, and I was
like, "I wonder what this is all about?" And I stopped by a meeting, where there
were probably five, a handful of students--not all Black, by the way, there were
white allies who were part of the group--and they were talking about approaching
the administration about some of their concerns about courses, about particular
professors, about admissions and needing to increase both the faculty and
student body with faculty of color and students of color and particularly Black
00:20:00students. And they were going to be meeting with the Dean of Admissions and the
Provost at the time.
And I gave them a little bit of advice because, you know, that's what I did. And
so I had said, you know, I'll happily attend that meeting. But, you know, I
prefer not to be talking because I'm not-- you need to advocate for yourselves,
and so I showed up at the meeting, which was in Seegars in front of the
fireplace, and I sat back and I was listening and they were expressing their
concerns and then the Dean of Admissions said, "Well, you know, I hear what
00:21:00you're saying--" I don't remember the exact words, but the crux of it was, you
know, "[B]ut one of the reasons that we have had difficulty recruiting Black
students is because when students visit, you know, you share negative things
about the college." And the person who was the pres-- I don't even remember, so
I couldn't say her name because I don't remember her name, but the person who
was president of the BSA at that time, you know, attempted to advocate for
themselves and basically was like pushing back a bit and, you know, he pushed
back, and I could not help it. I had to-- I said, I mean, I remember it was
pretty ugly. I said, "I cannot believe that you just said that to these
students, you have put, squarely on their shoulders, the responsibility of
00:22:00increasing enrollment by Black students. How dare you?" I remember pointing my
finger. "How dare you?" I said, you know, at that time, maybe it was 30 years
ago, I don't remember because I was in college five million years ago, but
whatever the time would have been since I was at Yale, I remember saying "I
cannot believe that you are putting this in this way," which is the same stuff
that I was fighting, you know, the administration at Yale University, however
many years ago, it was at that time.
And I literally said, "How dare you?" You know, so I hadn't intended to get
involved, but they couldn't have defended themselves. They had no ammunition. It
was not a time when activism on campus was in vogue. So kind of that kind of
00:23:00protest skills and that kind of thing that I would say students for the most
part have nowadays, because of many years of things building over the last few
years, but I'm not sure, even if they had had that that they wouldn't have had
enough students to do much push back. So I know and I know that that's recycled
through because-- so this is tangential. Again, I'm sorry, I'm not directly
answering your question, but, you know, the protests that happened on Through
the Red Doors, I think it was. In 2019, probably, I think that was the class
that was graduating-- some of that same kind of thing got said because they had
been smart and strategically placed their protest on a day when they knew that
lots of people that would affect the institution. And unfortunately, it tends to
00:24:00be the same concerns over and over and over again. So that predated my being a professor.
When I came in to teach that summer, a number of the students, you know, one of
the things at that time there was still, I don't know, there were probably less
than two percent Black students on campus, if that, and a course like "Race and
Representation," as it has consistently done, tends to have-- it does not have
the lone Black student in the class, there tend to be several students who were
in the class, and I believe all of the students who were in the class the
following fall, who were of color, were part of, I think it was called "Jump
Start" before it was the "Emerging Leaders," and I heard from students about
00:25:00concerns regarding particular professors who were teaching some of the courses
in what at that time were still, I think, African-American Studies or teaching
any of the Black-focused courses, some were allowing, you know, as part of kind
of "because it's in the text," the articulation of the N-word, for example. Or
saying that Black literature didn't exist anymore because it was based on one
particular book by a scholar who, frankly, I-- I don't admire at all who made a
ridiculous argument about, it had phased out was no longer considered Black
literature, so there were complaints about the approach.
00:26:00
So I was hearing some of that as somebody teaching students in 2009, through
like 2011 or so, kind of before I became full-time faculty officially, so they
were folks who were in my evening classes. And so there were concerns about how
people were being treated and importantly about kind of the insensitivity about,
it is not that white faculty cannot teach courses on race and or on Black
history or anything like that. That's ridiculous, because there are many, many
fabulous scholars out there. It was the way in which faculty were assumed to be
schooled enough or have expertise in areas that they didn't. Right? So if you're
00:27:00going to have faculty teach it, there should be an extra layer of, number one,
sensitivity, but, number two, some kind of expertise where they've done some
research on something, something, rather than an assumption that anyone can
teach those courses. So those are the kinds of things I was hearing in my early
years here, because I wasn't, you know, I wasn't on campus kind of full time
until about, I'm trying to think, I think the Fall of 2012 is when, you know, I
pretty much had an office and was here with some regularity. Not sure of any of
that is what you asked me, but there you go.
KR: Thank you. Susan, do you have a question? No. OK.
SFM: Oh, no, I don't. I just wanted to say thank you, all of that was amazing
00:28:00and exactly-- you know, that's why we opened the floor. You know.
RM: If you give me the floor, I will take it. So there you go.
KR: I'm all for that. So, as you're mentioning these things, I'm thinking about
when Jump Start was started and then and then changed to Emerging Leaders. But
then there was also the change, I think when Kim Gallon came, she changed the
name to-- this is after Charles.
RM: Right?
KR: Africana Studies. She was the one that made the change. So, we're talking
about 2009, 2011, you were talking about that time frame, about '11 and '12, and
I know there was a big push on diversity when we had President Helm supporting
00:29:00it ([I'm]being careful here), but there were a lot of students, which is the
same thing that you're talking about at the same sort of thing that we hear from
students in the '60s and '70s, some of the similar this is-- it's like Groundhog
Day in a way, you know. So there were students that were organized and wanted to
approach the president like, that was the Diversity Vanguard.
RM: Yeah, that was actually in spring semester 2013 and you know what, what had
happened was between 2009 and 2013, let's use that time span, one of the things
that I know had started to happen was the Jump Start program. One of the flaws
of the Jump Start program was that it was trying to be more of a bridge program
00:30:00than it was trying to be one that was about bringing a cohort in and doing
things to assure retention, right. So a bridge program is, you know-- the
concept of a bridge program historically had been one in which there's an
assumption that students couldn't have gotten in without some special
dispensation, right? And unfortunately, the recruitment that was done for those
early students, indeed, brought unprepared students to campus with no supports
that would have allowed them to succeed. It was not that these folks were not
just as smart as any of the other students, but their under-resourced schools
00:31:00that they came from, right? And it's kind of like my daughter when she went to
Swarthmore, it was like, you are brilliant and you will do fabulously there. But
understand that the Allentown School District did not prepare you for the
writing skills and the critical thinking skills you're going to need. You have
them innately, but you are going to have to use every resource available to you
in that first year or so or it's going to smack you in the face. Right?
And so many of the students who entered in, you know, who were in those early
classes, you know, may be graduating sometime between 2009 and 2012, for
example, really struggled, and many, in fact, were you know-- they might have
come in wanting to be premed. Well, we know premed is notorious for weeding out
00:32:00students, and students of color in particular were weeded out pretty early. But
importantly, you had people who wanted to be psych majors or whatever, who,
because they performed poorly in the early part of their tenure, and again,
largely because not only the shock of being on, like we call it, predominantly
white, well, at that time we're talking really, really white, but also not
having-- like the Writing Center wasn't set up for any kind of remediation.
Right? So you had students really floundering, and what happened is they ended
up channeling a lot of students who had interests in other areas into American
Studies because they thought they should be able to do fine with this, right?
It's not as challenging and there are some who I know to this day are resentful
00:33:00of having been channeled into that, because I know one student in particular who
was in my "Race and Rep[resentation]" class, probably the second time or third
time I taught it, so in those early years, who wanted to be a psychology major
and wanted to go on to graduate school for that and had no grounding to be able
to do that because they had been really steered to take classes which they
thought would be easy enough for her to, you know, to get a degree.
So those are the kinds of-- those are the kinds of concerns that, as we got to
2013, were percolating. By then, it was called Emerging Leaders, there was a
small cohort of students who had come in and they were in the class of 2015, I
00:34:00think. Is that true? I think so. 2014, 2015. Who wanted to see the same stuff
that we see time and time again, more faculty and more students, et cetera, and
there was a visiting professor who actually was a CFD, the Consortium for
Faculty Diversity. Am I able to say his name? It's not like he's not sort of
famous on campus, but he made a Martin Luther King speech that rocked the world.
We all sat mouths agape and many of us were quite happy, it was said, but he
really critiqued the institution. Number one, he had arrived as-- the CFD
00:35:00program in theory is to prepare diverse faculty to actually become tenure track
and tenured faculty. Many institutions that participate in the program do not
simply have a revolving door of one-year CFD that actually does not guarantee
that the person will end up with a position. But it is you know-- they're
bringing folks in to mentor them to go find faculty positions, tenured faculty
positions on campuses that are liberal arts campuses, but also often have the
anticipation of a position that might open, that they could apply to and not be
given preferential treatment, but that there is the chance of a full-time
position, permanent position. We, at that time, did not use the program in that
00:36:00way. We used it as a revolving door of having somebody of color on campus. And
so at that time, there were three of us, the visiting person, Kim Gallon, and
me. And I was not tenure track, so we had still one tenure track Black faculty
member. And, you know, it was not that he had been promised a position, and in
fact, when you come in for just a one year CFD, you're essentially on the market
the moment you hit the campus that you are on. So if there isn't a position
available, unless they are going to convert your position, you're basically
looking elsewhere. Right. So that was always the case when we had somebody on
campus and I don't know how many preceded him. I don't know how many people have
00:37:00been on campus prior to his arrival, but during his tenure, that one year, you
know, he was asked, basically, as Black faculty tend to be, asked to kind of
participate in all kinds of things, including being kind of a mentor to Black
male students on campus, like officially, like, not just where that happens,
which it does, you know, we've become informal mentors and advisers to students
across campus, regardless of whether that's our formal role or not.
But he was actually asked to kind of participate in some of that, which is crazy
because you're there for one year, which means you were setting up the students
for a very bad experience of losing the person that they kind of rely on as a
faculty mentor. And so he critiqued all of that. He critiqued specific
administration folks, some of whom were sitting in the audience. So it was
00:38:00tense; as much as I was happy, I was cringing a bit because I was like, holy
moly, what's happening here? But it was fabulous because he had already gotten a
position, right. So it was not a question of even sour grapes. This was-- he
knew he had nothing to lose and said what needed to be said. And the students
were fired up, both the Black and brown students in the audience and white
allies, and they began to gather after, like, small clumps, they didn't leave
the room, right? And what can we do? What can we do?
And the response from the president of the college--perhaps [he] would deny
this, the timing is very interesting--very shortly after that, we got the campus
00:39:00wide email that had to do with the diversity statement for the college and
asking for input in tweaking it and some of those same students were like,
excuse my language, "I'll be damned. You're trying to rein in that conversation
as if you're doing something." And they were angry and I was in teaching "Race
and Representation" in the library. And what is it, B-6, whatever that room is,
the big room down there. And I see students [and the] Multicultural Life
director come and knock on the window and call me out and I'm like, "What is
up?" And what was up was that students from SQuAd [Students for Queer Advocacy],
BSA, Comunidad Latina, and the Asian Student Association, there was a small
00:40:00group of the students who were really fired up and had drafted a letter that
they wanted to know if I would be willing to sign that they wanted to send to
the-- they wanted to take to the president's house that night, demanding a
variety of things. And I said "I'd be happy to sign it. But let's talk strategy."
So, I talked them off the ledge of-- it is not that I had, you know-- hell, I
had, you know, shut down the Yale Daily with other students, you know, over
something that had happened on campus. So it was not that I had any problem with
even storming the castle. Right. But in an era where protest was not the norm,
and on a campus like Muhlenberg's, that kind of very aggressive, not assertive
00:41:00but aggressive tactic should be held off for a different day, not as your
first-- in my opinion, not as your first entree, because it would shut down any
kind of negotiating that could happen. From my own experience in the union, from
my experience as an activist, I gave them my advice and it was up to them
whether they took it or not. And I said, you know, give it in the morning.
Right? And don't go over and knock on his door tonight; it won't be received
well. And they followed that advice, and I'm really glad they did, because it
opened up some channels of communication. And so that continued in the meantime,
that same evening, there were-- is this OK for me to say? So that same evening,
00:42:00more students, including those students who had come knocking on the door,
gathered, I think it was in Seegers-- one of the rooms in Seegers, and began to
kind of talk more collectively about what they were looking to have happen. And
then I think it was the following night, I'd have to look back at dates. I have
a whole file on Diversity Vanguard, but very shortly thereafter, they called an
emergency meeting of any students interested in the topic at the Multicultural Center.
And at least in my experience with Muhlenberg, again, I cannot swear to-- I know
that there were things that happened in the '60s and late '60s and early '70s,
but my guess is there wouldn't have been enough students to do what happened
00:43:00that night where it was like 80, 90 students or so who converged on the
Multicultural Center. And again, I do not believe in telling young people how
they should protest. However, if they ask for advice, I am willing to give it.
So I gave a lot of advice and I said, "You know, what you want to do is break
into small groups, get an idea on what people are looking for." You know, we
pulled out the big paper to, you know, brainstorm on. And then once the students
have left, we can then do kind of a multi-voting thing and figure out what the
priorities are out of all of those and/or massage the language so that we can
get it so it makes sense to the administration. And so, you know, that all
happened and we continued to meet several times to put out-- to make that list
00:44:00manageable, and so they drafted something to ask for a meeting with the
administration and they asked specifically-- again, I suggested, "You've got to
make sure it's in your space. Don't be sitting across the table where they're in
their kingdom."
So the administration did agree and they met in the Multicultural Center and it
was pretty much most of the cabinet was there and the representatives from the
student organization. So, Diversity Vanguard, which I don't remember if they had
named themselves before or after that meeting, but I think there were about 12
of them at that time, you know, it tended to be the president or the president
and vice president of each of the organizations, which, again, was something
00:45:00that felt new. And again, you're looking at the history. So it'll be interesting
to know whether this was new. But if anything, it was new in the last couple of
decades where you had across the spectrum, right, affinity groups coming
together as a coalition for-- looking for change. And one of the things that
those who were working alongside me, working with the students, we have them do
some research. What are the statistics of the number of students, Black
students? Latinx students, students, Asian students and faculty. Get those
demographics, get those numbers so that when you are asking for something, you
are not talking from nothing. Right? And so their demands-- I mean--I could--I
was so proud. They just, they were so-- they put it out passionately, but, you
00:46:00know, perhaps we're talking the politics of respectability, you know, everybody
who's dressed nice so that they came off in a way that could not be poo-poohed.
And again, you know, I know that's to some degree sometimes poo-poohed, but it
worked with this administration where-- and the demands that they were asking
for also had been echoed to some degree when the faculty had met and kind of
come up with some plans as well, which was, you know, more faculty and staff of
color, more students of color.
And specifically we're looking at Black students and Black faculty and all of
the affinity groups had agreed that the focus could be with a privileging of
the, you know, the Black experience on this campus, because that was who had
00:47:00received the brunt of a lot of the stuff that happens on campus and where the
majority of folks in the Emerging Leaders program, for example, and their
demands included that, but then they asked-- they demanded, they didn't ask--
they demanded that there would be a diversity-- like that we have a diversity--
a strategic plan for diversity which had never existed in the institution. So
that's kind of all happened. And, you know, the matter of-- I think the meeting
with administration was on February 1st and MLK Day had been maybe two weeks
prior. So it all happened pretty quickly. And the administration did respond by
creating a Diversity Council to kind of look at the issue. And that's where it
gets tricky. Because that took way too long and was way too-- was not
00:48:00transparent at all. Long winded answer, so you open that floor and the
floodgates will fill out, so.
SFM: Well, two thoughts, I mean, in talking about how the students who had come
in even up to 2012 in those-- the period from when you started teaching,
absolutely reflects what we know from the record about student experiences in
the '60s and then what those folks have echoed. We have one amazing quote for--
and I can't wait for you to hear these when they're public. We have one quote
from one participant from the class of '77 saying, you know, "they-- of DEI they
wanted the D, but they did nothing for the E and the I and there just-- there
was no support." So, that is a theme consistently. And what you say about it
00:49:00being new for the affinity groups to come together then at this point, that is a
true statement. That is-- that was a first.
RM: Yeah, yeah.
SFM: Thank you so much for speaking to that.
KR: And also the notion that there was no urge to be active politically, to be
protesting anything. In fact, one of-- Sallie [Keller Smith]-- who said that one
of her professors called Muhlenberg a "hotbed of tranquility."
RM: And Muhlenberg wasn't alone. I mean, the reality is that even when I was in
college and, you know, from '74, you know-- I was in the class of '78-- there
was certainly still activity, kind of reverberations from the '60s by that
point. In the-- you know, 1980s, early '80s, you started to have, like, against
00:50:00apartheid, for example, but in terms of campus-- campuses across the country,
for the most part, by the time you're getting to, you know, 1990s and early
2000s-- for the most part, they're fairly quiet. So Muhlenberg was not an
anomaly in any respect. And in fact, the kinds of percolation that was happening
here was how it started to happen on other colleges. You know, at that moment,
there were-- I'm trying to remember, there was, I can't remember if it was
Smith, I don't know if there was some college that, like that spring, that same
spring had closed down the entire campus to have a day of reflection based on
problems they were having because somebody had scrawled some horrific thing on a
00:51:00building or whatever. So it was starting like, the trend was starting again for
activism, and then, of course, by 2014, we're pretty much in full bloom by then.
And that's not just, again, Muhlenberg, but across the country. So we were
following national trends in many ways, but it's still very personal when you're
talking about your own campus. It wasn't like when you had SDS [Students for a
Democratic Society] or those kinds of things in the '60s where you had-- or SNCC
[Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee]-- where you had mobilizations across
the country, where you had chapters and those kinds of things. So they were
individually, you know, erupting and we were part of that early front that
starts to happen by the time you get Black Lives Matter. About a year-- about a
00:52:00year later; year, year and a half.
KR: So, the DSP [Diversity Strategic Plan] kind of spun out of-- kind of lost
its momentum. It seemed like. Is that?
RM: Yeah, yeah. You know, the DSP was comprised-- like a number of folks who
were on Diversity Vanguard demanded positions on that-- seats at that table. I
was asked by the president to be on it, and I--you know, people go, well, you
never refuse the president--I refused the president because when you sit at the
table, your perspective changes, it's important that people be at the table, but
it is important that people be on the outside who can keep the folks at the
table focused and I felt like that was my role and several of the Diversity
00:53:00Vanguard members felt that same way and-- at the beginning, you know, the
problem also is with college campuses, you're talking about this, this thing
started in January. The DSP didn't really get started until the very end of the
spring semester. So it was really starting to work over the summer. That's
always a problem because by the time you return, many of the leaders who had
made that happen, right, because that would, that would that would, I don't know
if it would have eventually happened, but it would not have happened at that
moment in history without student demands. And, you know, half the leaders were
already graduated, right, or going to study abroad, so that allowed things-- and
whether they admit it or not, the administration knows this, right?
00:54:00
Same thing happened with the work that was being done in 2019. The majority of
that leadership of those students were seniors. Right. And so by the time you
come back in the fall, you've got a whole new class entering and you've got
people who don't even know it existed. Right. But importantly, because-- you
know, one of the things that I kept asking faculty representatives to demand was
that you have an outside facilitator for that, because if you have the president
of the college, as well-meaning as that person may be, that's not, that's not
going to be a facilitated process that is in any way neutral or fair, because
it's skewed by folks who are deeply invested in, not necessarily in a positive
00:55:00way, but deeply invested in the status quo and in. making sure the institution
is OK. Right?
And so because, you know, there was a refusal to have outside facilitator and so
the process took almost two years and by the time it was done and they were
rolling out like having people come and, I don't know, they did one of those
roundabouts where you go and you look at whatever was being proposed and you
give feedback. There were so few people on campus who would have even known what
that was about to begin with, that the kind of feedback that really would have
been needed to keep folks on track wasn't happening and it had gotten diluted.
And it's not like some of the things that came out of it were not good, but they
were not what the original intent was. So, for example, one of the things that
00:56:00came out of the DSP, which folks were so proud of, was the gender neutral-- the
first gender neutral bathroom on campus. Important thing; was not part of the
original plan. It had skewed so far from increasing faculty, staff and students
on campus, particularly Black students, which was the original thrust, that--
but it was still important, it's still an important part of history because of
the fact that we had not had a strategic plan like that. And so that when the
new president was hired and, what was it, 2015 maybe, something around there,
that was something that the Board was saying you need to have at least some
focus on, right?
And that's when I think-- I think that's when there was really a beginning of a
00:57:00push that have not happened under the previous administration of increasing
faculty and staff numbers and, you know, we had training from an outside
consultant who came in and, you know, trained on DEI and we have done a
significantly better job. I mean, you know, there's not just one, two or three
Black faculty anymore or faculty of color more generally. The real trial now is
retention, whether people actually make it to tenure, because prior to this, you
know, Charles Anderson made it to tenure, but left right after. Kim Gallon left
in her third year and people since then have left prior to and that is not
because they were doing poorly, which is a real reflection on the institution
and our reputation, you know, in terms of people attracting candidates, people
00:58:00who hear these things, you know, that there's a revolving door. So we've done
better. And we've got some folks close to tenure now and that will be the proof
of the pudding, whether we are in a state of change and advancement is if we get
folks over that tenure line who then stay. And to date, we have not done that, so.
KR: When we move to June of 2020, we have the letter that comes out. Black
faculty letter-- with many of the things that they're asking for-- demanding--
are the many of the same things, it seems, we've been asking people before, way
before any of us, you know. What was your read on that and how that-- how that's
00:59:00looking like the impetus that got it there? I mean, obviously the impetus has
been there for a while. But do you have a few words about that? I really
appreciate it. It's-- I think it was-- it seemed to have a bit of heft, if you will.
RM: Yes. It had heft because the folks who contributed to the actual drafting of
the language are incredibly talented. And one person in particular and I'm
sorry, I've got to, I've got to name: Emmanuel Kucik is phenomenal. And her
wordsmithing is phenomenal, but it was a collective effort of a number of
faculty. I will say I was one of the people who signed it. I definitely looked
it over, but I cannot take credit for drafting that letter. What I will say is
that I wrote my siblings upon reading the final draft and said, "I'll be damned
01:00:00if this is not what my father was fighting for, as you know, for the Black
presence at Penn back in 1970 to '76; it is the same stuff, the same stuff we
were fighting for students, the same stuff that Black faculty were fighting for,
you know, 50 years ago, which is really criminal at this point." What I will say
is what the impetus was obviously, the kinds of protests that were going on
created a real momentum and sense of urgency.
But importantly, it was one that-- it was a strategic moment to be able to make
these demands because people were listening across the country in a way,
including on our campus, in a way that they might have meant to be, but in
actuality, if you don't change A or B, C is always going to be the same A plus
01:01:00B, equal C; if those components A plus B don't change in some way, C is not
going to change. And we were kind of in that station where we would keep doing
things but not things that would change dramatically how the institution
functioned. And because of the political moment, it was an opportune moment to
make those demands, and the letter was brilliant, received a lot of support from
allies and I will say thus far, I think the institution is thus far responding
well. I think that there are, I mean, I have seen definite efforts to make real
the kinds of things that they say they want to do regarding DEI.
01:02:00
Even the term DEI, I find just-- I don't know. I used to train on pluralism and
diversity. Right. So during the '80s and '90s when that was the fashionable word
and that's the problem, it becomes a buzzword, to some degree for many
institutions, and it also becomes a protective device for the institution to
stave off some of the protest. But I will say that this administration does seem
to be receptive and seems to want to make real those things and different
departments. You know, the Theater Department-- Theater and Dance Department
spent months trying to kind of talk through how they can approach things
differently, whether that's casting or choosing the kinds of productions that go
on. So I see a real effort again. I don't know, you know, it depends on when
01:03:00you've got a turnover of students every four years, it's hard to say whether it
will be sustained, but I think it was, again, the first that I know of it does
not mean it was the first, but it was the first of that kind of, kind of letter
of demands that was presented and that had received-- that was received
positively by the institution itself. Does that answer?
KR: Yes, thank you very much. It was-- I thought it was a very profound moment
for certain, you know just...Susan, do you have any questions?
SFM: Well, not, not a question per se, but I did want to say this, and I'm happy
to have this be on the record: years ago when I was new, you came and mentioned
01:04:00to me that your daughter at Swarthmore, that you-- through your connection with
her, of course, you had come across a site that talked about Swarthmore's
diversity history, and you had said to me, you know, "I wish we could have--
what do we know about this? It would be cool if we could have something like
that here." And--
RM: Good memory!
SFM: Since you said that to me, I started, whenever the opportunity presented
itself, to create a document that had every piece of history and mention and
movement, and this just accumulated over years and years. And it's thanks to the
partnership and the practice that I built with these other two partners on this
project that we finally worked-- the project that we're doing right now and the
fact that we were able to include students in it and the fact that we were able
to collect oral histories around this is a seed that you helped to plant. And it
01:05:00is while it is six or seven years down the road, I'm delighted to have you be a
part of it, and I can't wait for you to see it.
RM: Me either, I'm excited about it. Well, that's really wonderful. I did not
even remember that, but I'm glad to have planted a seed.
KR: When you think about advice that you would give students--we ask this all
the time, no matter whether-- what era that we're doing or on topic or whatever,
but-- any advice to students of color that you would give, and I know you give
them all kinds of valuable advice, but for the record, let's put it this way,
what kind of advice would you give them?
RM: I think the advice that I have given is students are the most powerful group
01:06:00on campus. And don't forget that you have that power, you know, does not matter
how old you are. You were the reason the institution exists, so, don't ask
permission to do what you think needs to be done, to make the place a place that
you can call home as well, because that was one of the things that was happening
a lot in the 2013-2014 timeframe. Where they would, you know, students would
come-- not always students of color, sometimes white allies-- who would sit with
some of us and kind of lay out what they were thinking about doing, but in a way
that was kind of asking for permission.
And that's the advice I gave, which is, you know, I'm not asking you to, you
01:07:00know, get totally crazy and violent, but I'm saying protest, you're completely
within your rights to do that. You don't have to ask permission and, in fact,
asking permission to some degree minimizes what you are trying to do. So I'm
happy to give advice. But don't ever ask me whether it's OK. You know, in the
words of Ella Baker, who was one of my idols, she advised SNCC, right? She did
not guide them or tell them what to do. She said, this is your battle. I am here
as a resource. But you don't have to ask me how to do this fight. And I think
that's really key because young people have been the folks who have made the
most substantial change in this country since its founding. And I think that's
01:08:00who's made the most difference on this campus.
So the Black faculty letter is really, really important. But again, if we hadn't
had other things percolating that were student-driven, and if it weren't that
political moment, I'm not sure how the institution would have responded to it.
So I think that's the most sage advice I can give, you know, this is your home
for four years, so you demand what you need to make it a place that is safe,
happy and healthy for you. All right.
KR: I think it's great advice because I've used the same thing, just pretty much
the same stuff. But, Zaire was-- the President of the Student Body--was talking
about the protest that took place outside of the Sports Center on the day that
01:09:00Red Doors announced-- he said those are particularly-- him as a freshman, he was
talking about what it felt like. He was like, "I think I'll just watch" and then
pretty soon he was jumping in, you know? So I think it's really important for
them. There was a lot of, you know, momentum going on it seemed like.
RM: There has been periodic momentum, and again, that's one of the difficulties
when you're talking about the turnover that happens on a college campus, just by
its very nature of being a four-year institution, you also have what-- was
really great that semester was that so many of the seniors were involved because
a lot of times, for example, with BSA organizations across the country, when you
get first-years and second-years tend to be really, really gung ho. And then as
you get closer to graduation, you know, you might be applying for jobs, you
might be applying for grad school and your focus, it's rare that you find really
01:10:00heavily involved seniors in things like affinity groups and leadership
positions. And-- but the danger is that, again, by the time you come back in the
Fall, those people who have been pivotal to that particular protest are gone.
And therefore, it kind of went [audible "pop"] for a while until 2020, which,
you know, George Floyd changed the world in that regard. You know, we had never,
you know-- whether you're talking about the modern civil rights movement-- we
have never seen protest on the basis of race like we saw with that particular,
lynching, I'm going to call it, legal lynching by police because you're talking
01:11:00about the volume of people in the streets, and the diversity of the people in
the streets, right? Yes, there's always been white and non-Black allies, [but]
not to the numbers that we had consistently day after day in the streets and
then across the globe, because anti-Blackness is a global problem like white
supremacy and coupled with anti-Blackness is a global reality, and again, one of
the things I said, I was very hopeful with that summer, but I said we have to
see what happens. Does it sustain itself? And to some degree, it's dipped again.
So we shall see, we shall see. But yeah, I think there's like that's how, that's
01:12:00how protest goes. It's rare that it's sustained for years and years on end,
unfortunately or fortunately-- I don't know. It's unfortunate because the
problems don't seem to get fixed and then the protest wanes or it gets co-opted.
The DSP was a co-optation.
SFM: So, Roberta, thank you so much for participating in this. We very much
value your time and your perspectives. And it has been a pleasure.