Interview with Dr. Harold Marks, January 17, 1973

PHILIP SECOR: This is Philip Secor speaking. I am the dean of Muhlenberg College, talking to you from the Muhlenberg Room of the college library, on this the 17th day of January 1973. This tape is intended to be part of an oral history of Muhlenberg College consisting primarily of conversations with senior members of the college community. Dr. Katherine Van Eerde, professor of history at the college will be conducting this afternoon's interview conversation with Dr. Harold K. Marks, emeritus professor of music at Muhlenberg. Professor Marks is the oldest living Muhlenberg professor in terms of total years of association with the college. He received his baccalaureate degree in 19[0]7 and became a member of our faculty in 1913. I am delighted that Professor Marks has agreed to 00:01:00help us inaugurate this oral history project by talking with Dr. Van Eerde this afternoon. Dr. Van Eerde.

KATHERINE VAN EERDE: Thank you Dean Secor. Professor Marks, you are enabling us today to tap some of the longest memories that we can have at our disposal in regard to the early history of Muhlenberg. I think we'd all be most interested in hearing about your reminiscences of the time even before you were a student at Muhlenberg, then when you were a student at the old buildings downtown, your part in the move, the very early days when your father Dr. Clement Marks attracted to his home and yours a number of the very early eminent authorities and professors at Muhlenberg. Can you start by telling us about those days?

HAROLD K. MARKS: Yes [coughs] I am very happy to do so. I remember as a boy, some of the 00:02:00professors used to visit our home. One of the faculty members that I remember very well is Dr. George T. Ettinger, Dean of the College at that time. And I always admired Dr. Ettinger as a boy, and then of course when I came to college, I was in his classes for four years in Latin. And I'd like to say this in regard to Dr. Ettinger as well as another one of the former, old faculty members, Dr. Wackernagel. I've always said this, that uh, it is not always that a man's virtues may be discerned in his deeds or distinguished achievements, but very often an action of small note, a short saying, even a jest may reveal a man's 00:03:00real character. And I think that Dr. Wackernagel were men of-- Dr. Wacknagel and Dr. Ettinger were men of culture. Both of them had a-- had a broad liberal arts education. They also had a keen sense of humor. It has been said that humor has the earnestness of affection and would lift up what is seemingly low in our charity and love. Now, why did the students in my time and even before my time revere these men? And I would say I-- I believe it's because they humanized their knowledge. They were kind. They were benevolent. And I think that would sum up pretty well the characteristics of these men. The um-- I never knew Dr. Seip of 00:04:00course you asked me to [inaudible] some of the men that I knew--

KVE: Excuse me just a minute Professor Marks. This is Dr. Seip's dining room table that we're sitting before. It was this table here. It was given to the College, and it sits here in the Muhlenberg Room. So now that you, who knew Dr. Seip are present, let me present to you his dining room table.

HM: Pardon me?

KVE: This is Dr. Seip's dining room table.

HM: Oh is it, but that's very -

KVE: According to Mr. Davidson, yes.

HM: But coming back to Dr. Seip. When I entered Muhlenberg as a freshman in the fall of 1903, Dr. Seip, was President, of course. And he lived on the west wing of the-- of the College. I never got to know him very well although I'd 00:05:00heard him preach. And it was quite an effective preach. I remember him preaching a Baccalaureate sermon; I was just a young chap and attended this Baccalaureate service. But my one thing I remember of Dr. Seip, was that after a week or two when I, after I had entered at college-- the freshmen. We had-- this was a sort of a tradition. We had what they call a "stair rush." Now the-- in other words sophomores tried to prevent the freshmen --

KVE: ah yes, getting up --

HM: --from, you've probably heard--

KVE: I've heard of this, from getting up the stairs --

HM: They tried to prevent the freshman from going up the steps. They were these old-fashioned circular steps going up to the second floor. So I remember, that 00:06:00when we got out of a class, and our next class was on the second floor. Here we got to the set of-- and of course here is this human barricade you might say, [KVE: a mass] these legs and arms intertwined forming a human chain, and the idea was to prevent us from getting up to the second floor. This I remember so well, because, I remember trying, trying to dislodge one of these fellas, thought he was sort of a weak link in the chain, and we finally got him up and of course they closed ranks. In other words, this thing got so tough after a while. We'd jump over the one group, and we'd pull them out again and in other words, the thing really ended up in a fight. I might say that eventually the fists started to fly. Well, and then there was a good deal of shouting of course, 00:07:00yelling, and I can still see Dr. Seip coming out of his office, a kindly old gentleman, and he held up his hands, he say, "Gentleman, gentleman! This must cease, this must cease! If you do not stop this fighting, I must report you to your parents." I'll never forget that.

KVE: [laughs] The ultimate threat in those days

HM: Yes. So um-- well, that is about the only time I got into contact with Dr. Seip-- of course was professor of Greek. But-- and in November, I believe the November of the same yes-- actually Dr. Seip died in November, November 28th. And I remember the student body went into mourning for Dr. Seip. I-- I recall 00:08:00wearing a black band on my left sleeve, and uh, how long that period was I don't know what the usual length is, I don't know, but I wore that black band out of respect for Dr. Seip. So uh, I might say this too, that in the old days, when I came to Muhlenberg, we were told by the upperclassmen that we should always respect the professors. When you meet a professor, doff your hat out of respect to the professor. And I know we did that. You'd meet Professor so and so and Dr. so and so-- you remove your hat and bow graciously. Well, coming back to Dr. Seip, and then after Dr. Seip passed away, Dr. Wackernagel was the elected, acting President for the rest of the academic year, that was until June 1904, that's 00:09:00right. So, coming back to this stair rush, I should've told you this, it ended in a fight that I remember distinctly. I was a town student of course, a day student, we lived in Allentown. And, when I came home, I remember I had very little of my shirt left. As I recall one of the sleeves was completely [laughs] torn off. And I know my parents were amazed, oh "what happened down there?" Well of course I had to explain about this stair rush, you know.

So we -- now, you spoke of Dr. Seip, and I might say this, that then of course in the meantime, Dr. Haas was elected president. And uh, if I remember 00:10:00correctly, I'm just trying to figure, yes he came in the fall of 19[0]4. And at the same time that Dr. Wackernagel-- er, at the same time that Dr. Haas came, there were two new men appear on the faculty. The one man was Dr. Robert Horn, who was a graduate of the College and he was elected Mosser-Keck Professor of Greek Language and Literature. He was quite a young man at the time. And also, Professor William Reese. Now Reese came from-- Reese was a Lafayette man and I may be wrong about this, but I believe he was teaching in one of the high schools, probably Phillipsburg High School or something like that. But Reese came here as instructor, well actually, he was named as Professor of the 00:11:00Natural and Applied Sciences as I recall. Now prior to that time, of course, now there was a great-- eh Reese said I remember, I got to know him very well, he said "you know you have a lot of school-- you've got a lot of class spirit here." There was great rivalry, for instance, between the freshmen and the sophomores. I mentioned the stair rush at that time. Now the next big event, of course, as the sophomore - freshman football game. I remember that. Now there was great rivalry of course. And Dr.-- Professor Reese said "No, I think there is a lot of class spirit now but what we need here is more College spirit! That's what you need here, you fellas. You want to get out and want a [inaudible; coughs] from Muhlenberg the way the boys at 00:12:00Yale show their loyalty" or some of the other large universities. So he did, I would say that Reese thought of things going in that respect-- started to create a fine school spirit. I think we owe a good deal of that to Professor Reese for that.

Now of course there were many incidents that happened, I spoke of Dr. Seip. Then, of course, during Dr. Wackernagel's period that he served as acting president. Now [inaudible] I said that Dr. Wackernagel had a great sense of humor, and it is true and so did Dr. Ettinger. But in doctor--I must tell you something more about Dr. Ettinger. Some years ago I wrote down reminiscences of Dr. Ettinger, which I 00:13:00call "Ettinger-isms." Some of the things that happened in class. Now the boys often ask me, some of the men say, what kind of a teacher was Dr. Ettinger? Well I said, I'll give you an idea, what kind of a man Dr. Ettinger was. Now for instance, suppose you were translating something in Latin, for example, suppose we were translating-- I recall one time we were translating The Odes of Horace and we came across the-- we came across the Latin word "convivium." Well, the so, the Doctor stopped and said well, well "Now gentlemen, let's take this word 'convivium,' now what does it mean of course. Well this, of course, translation 00:14:00means it's the Latin for a feast or a banquet. Now of course, we all know what a banquet is, you fellas have had your occasional banquets, and of course you know as a rule there's a good deal of eating and of course there's some drinking too. Now unfortunately some fellas seem to think that a banquet is only a success if half of the other-- if half of the fellas are lying under the table." And then he'd give us sort of a lecture and then--and we got something from that [inaudible] that might consume some time. Now perhaps we did sidetrack the man, but nevertheless we got something there, you see, something personal, as I say it humanizes [an audience?]. I remember another time, he'd say "what is the value of studying Latin?" and he said "now you know many of our 00:15:00English words come from the Latin." And then he'd take a word like this for example, now he says "now you take the Latin word 'pes', for a foot and 'pedes.'" Well then he said [inaudible] "all these English words that are derived from this 'pes,' pedal, or pedestal, or pedestrian, and so forth, peddler, and so forth. Now, he says "gentleman, why bother about this, where do all this words come from?" "Well," he said, "the important thing is this, one of the finest things that you get right down to the root of the matter," as he could, let's get down to the root and in that way we get a greater appreciation. Things like that which uh, meant much to me.

KVE: You know this human quality that you're talking about in these professors, 00:16:00the professors in a period of around 1900, I think is exemplified in that mural, I believe it is, in the rotunda of the administration building where Professor Wackernagel is standing, a great figure, with a little figure of Preston Barba and his hand is on Barba's shoulder and you see the relationship as almost a friend to friend or father to son, between this professor and the student.

HM: Well there are many instances of that, for instance, these men were very quick with repartee or retort. Never try to get in an argument with Dr. Ettinger, I always said that. And Dr. Wackernagel always had a good answer. I recall, now I must tell you something, I spoke about Ettinger. Then of course I remember Ettinger saying it one time, "there's nothing worse than an educated rascal." I'll never forget that. Or he'd say, he'd say um, if he'd hear of the boys cutting up, certain pranks or like that, I can still hear the Doctor say, "well, boys will be boys." 00:17:00You see he was-- Now Wackernagel, of course, he had his, some amusing things happened. I must tell you about the Doctor. Eh, one day, and I may have been a-- I may have been one of the students at that time, we cut out a picture from one of the current magazines, and I think there was some ballet dancers, or it might have been a picture of a ballet dancer, rather scantily clad of course, and I remember we took it up to Dr. Wackernagel's desk and we said "Doctor, what do you think of that?" And his prompt reply was this "Gentlemen. When I want meat, I go to the butcher shop." Which is a pretty good reply. Very clever. So I always enjoyed that. And then, one thing, I must plead guilty to this, speaking 00:18:00of Dr. Wackernagel. This happened in my freshman year. We had no modern facilities in the old building as I recall, there was a washroom, I forget that, either twenty-four or something and that was right above Dr. Wackernagel's recitation room -

KVE: Now excuse me, this will be down in the old buildings, right?

HM: In the old buildings, that's right.

KVE: Down at 4th and Walnut, that's what you're talking about.

HM: This is down at the old building. Now the boys used to see-- we had some boys, quite a few boys boarding at the school. And then, of course, we had a good many boys commuting in those days, those that lived in town. But anyhow, coming back to this, I believe it was "Twenty-four" they referred to it, that was the washroom. What they had there in the [inaudible] I don't know [inaudible] very seldom I got there, but anyhow, there must have been a bucket up there and we used to 00:19:00pull tricks on Dr. Wackernagel's class, and that's why I mention this. And I happened to be one of the-- one of the culprits in this particular case. And I said the Doctor's recitation room was directly under this washroom, "Twenty-four" we would call it. And eh, it happened on a hot June day I believe, or in May, and uh, one of the boy-- the chairs incidentally, were like bar room chairs in this room, very comfortable chairs. And one of the boys was leaning over the edge of the window, like this, and he always had a habit of doing that. So one of my friends and I said, let's have fun today. If that fella sits there again, we can go upstairs and we can fill a bucket of water and we'll pour that water, which we 00:20:00did. So we filled the bucket of water and let this thing fly out and of course there was a good deal of commotion in Dr. Wackernagel's room and the boys were yelling and shouting, you know. So the next period, I happened to be-- have a class with Dr. Wackernagel, so I came in, very soberly, and Doctor was teaching, of course, and boys were reciting. And finally, after about ten minutes or so, he looked up with a sly look he looked at me and said "Mr. Marks. Were you one of those John the Baptists?" [KVE (laughs)] He was on to me. So...but he took a good nature, you know.

KVE: I get the feeling there was a kind of prep school atmosphere about a great deal of the early Muhlenberg College--

HM: Yes that's right --

KVE: Boys had a lot of high spirits --

HM: Now another funny thing. The professor of Mathematics at that time, eh, it was Dr. Bauman. Bauman of course, was pretty strict you know, he's pretty tough, so to speak. And, he didn't have the sense of humor, of course. that eh, Dr. Wackernagel had or Dr. Ettinger. But I recall, the class-- now Dr. Bauman, now-- this in the new Administration Building at the present site of the College. And Dr. Bauman's classroom was directly above Dr. Wackernagel's room, and we were having a class in astronomy, I believe, astronomy with Dr. Bauman and we heard some shouting going on there, and you know the boys they would probably 00:22:00interrupt a class every now and then perhaps tell a story, or Doctor so and so and so and so, and eh, at any rate, there was a lot of commotion. And I can still hear Dr. Bauman say--and we started laughing-- "Gentlemen, gentlemen, don't bother about the lower regions. Don't bother about the lower regions" [KVE: (laughs) hewas up in the skies] that was enough for me. So the next period I had with Dr. Wackernagel. And I went up to talk [inaudible] and said "You know Doctor, I've always been your friend and anyone that makes, casts any reflections on you or your classroom, anything like that, I resent it! And as your friend I've got to tell you something, I don't like to tell you, but I feel I should tell you.' "Well what is it?" And well I said, "last period we were up in 00:23:00Dr. Bauman's class in astronomy and we heard some commotion down here and laughter, and of course we started to laugh, and then he said 'Gentlemen, don't bother about the lower regions.'" And Wackernagel quickly replied, "Huh. Does he think that's heaven?"

KVE: [laughs] Very good. You know, you began doing a little bit of each man. I think in the Ciarla, the year that you graduated, you're commended for your mimicry and I can see that you haven't lost your ability.

HM: And then of course one of the boys I remember in my class went up to Dr. Wackernagel one day and said "You know, Doctor"-- he'd been cutting up you know, and finally this fella said "You know Doctor? We all have a warm spot in our hearts for you." And Dr. Wackernagel replied, "Yes. But I could not boil a soup on it." 00:24:00[KVE (laughs)] Now the other incident I must tell you, which I always enjoyed, was this. Eh, in my, maybe in my--I don't what year, freshman, sophomore year, doesn't matter--I've taken sick one day and the doctor diagnosed the case as German measles. Well, I couldn't go to college for several days. So one day, Dr. Wackernagel inquired where I was. "Where is Mr. Marks?" And one of the boys there went "Doctor, he has the German measles". Wackernagel said, "Do the measles now have nationalities?" I'll never forget that. [inaudible] now he was quick like that, very quick. So, so many things that I remember about the Doctor were really lovely. I remember one-- coming back to Dr. Wackernagel, I remember that-- or rather Dr. Ettinger. One day he said, "Gentlemen, an educated man is 00:25:00never cock-sure of himself." I'll never forget that. Then he started-- see Ettinger was-- this might have been Latin class. "Now gentlemen, of course now you know afterall-- you know on the one hand this might be true, you know, and the other hand that might be true. You have to always balance things carefully before you're cock-sure of yourself." Things like that. So those things have stuck to me and now you can imagine that here I am at my age and I haven't forgotten all these --

KVE: The aphorisms that they left with you.

HM: Yes.

KVE: Professor Marks, I think one of the things we'd be most interested in hearing is about the great shift from downtown to what was then the outskirts of 00:26:00Allentown. When Muhlenberg College moved out to the West End.

HM: Yes. Well, in my junior, pardon me, in my freshman year, in the fall of 1903, we knew that the eh, new buildings were being constructed and we knew that we'd be moving out there say between Christmas-- during the Christmas vacation and 1904. That was after-- that was in my sophomore year. So, some of us-- a few of the boys and I, we were--we found that we could have some work to do during the vacation period, the Christmas vacation period. And I remember, we had horse-drawn vehicles to transport to the new buildings whatever we had-- 00:27:00books presumably.

KVE: Desks?

HM: Yes and probably some desks--

KVE: -- and probably some chairs.

HM: Yes I remember Dr. Wackernagel's old desk, the boys had inscribed their initials on. You know I think that desk is around here somewhere--

KVE: Is that so?

HM: So we were-- and incidentally, how many days we worked I don't know, but I'd say perhaps the greater part of the week. For which we received a dollar and a quarter a day. And that was good money at that time, I was very happy with that. So, now my-- there's a classmate of mine who's still living who claims that they were horse-drawn sleighs. Now that I don't know, I'm not gonna, I thought they were just horse-drawn wagons. He said they were sleighs, that might be, that I'd forgotten entirely.

KVE: Was it exhilarating to get out here? Did you feel a sense of greater expansion and freedom--

HM: Well yes --

KVE: -- or did you miss the old campus?

HM: Well strange to say, I must say that even that-- you know where the old 00:28:00College was situated where Trout Hall is now situated. And Trout Hall, incidentally, that's the headquarters for the Lehigh County Historical Society. And incidentally in that building at that time, that's where the College treasurer lived. In that particular-- I didn't know it at the time but this building was-- had a such a historical past. But we looked forward to it, yes, we looked forward to coming up because this was a modern building and yet there have been times where-- the College was so small at the time and we knew everybody, there was a certain intimacy there that sometimes I sort of miss the old campus. But we were glad to come out here and of course it took a while and of course we 00:29:00only had one building you understand and that was the Administration Building--

KVE: Now Ettinger, now named for your professor--

HM: --Now the Ettinger Building, the Administration Building. That's all we had and of course we had the Power House. And the Power House, part of that was the chemical laboratory. I remember taking a course in chemistry and we did all our laboratory work in the-- in the Power House. I recall that very well.

KVE: You never got mischievous in the labs-- you boys never got mischievous in the labs and tried to blow things up?--

HM: No, never. No. But I'll never forget one fella in my class...the experiment called for something [laughs] and you should add to it H2O. And I'll never forget this fellow, he was a [inaudible]. He said "Oh, Professor Reese," he says "it says add H2O! Where's the H2O bottle?" [laughs] I'll never forget 00:30:00that! Amusing! Yes, that's all we had and then of course we had the athletic fields, no grandstand--

KVE: No is that so? People just stood?--

HM: Pardon?

KVE: People just stood to watch games?

HM: People-- I remember people driving up. Well, I had no car at the time but people would drive up in their automobiles along the sidelines on the-- where that would be the south side, yes. The north side is the grandstand today, correct. But there was no grandstand there at all. But then the south side they'd drive their cars in there. But I'm told that-- in some cases people stood along the sidelines, a lot of people stood along the sidelines. Now, I'm told that at one time instead of selling tickets, they used to pass a hat and take a 00:31:00collection. I don't know if that's true but I know they did sell season tickets at one time, season football tickets. I remember when I joined the faculty I bought one of those season tickets, and that way I could see the games you know.

KVE: Did someone collect it then?--

HM: Pardon me--

KVE: Someone checked the ticket each time then presumably if you were the possessor of a season ticket--

HM: Yes well it's so long ago that I've really forgotten some of those details. But you see, now you can imagine how difficult it was in those days, I don't know whether I should discuss the matter of athletics, but when I came to Muhlenberg, now you might be interested in this, we had twenty-eight seniors, we had nineteen juniors, twenty-two sophomores, and my class seventeen, only seventeen--

KVE: Oh small--

HM: Now of course, in our sophomore year a few more may have been added, and of course, we may have had some losses too. Not necessarily that they failed but we-- in other words they say, by the time we graduated, I think there were sixteen or seventeen that received their degrees when I graduated and that's all. So you see in a total student body of eighty-six you're gonna have quite a time to get a-- to have a football team.

KVE: Yes. Whom did you play?

HM: Well, now that's an interesting question. So coming back to 19[0]3, I had played some football at the high school, I was interested very much in trying to get a team but we just couldn't get enough men. So we had no eam. Now there 00:33:00may have been another reason for that because I'd seen a picture in an old Ciarla of the football squad in 19[0]2 and they're a pretty good size group, but one man standing there on crutches. Now this fella [inaudible] had broken both legs in scrimmage and I'm told that that didn't go down very well with the faculty. So then I would say that athletics weren't particularly--

KVE: Emphasized--

HM: --popular at that time you see, although they had some football games, but then-- then in my sophomore year, they did manage to get a team together and played a few games. Now you asked the teams, well the teams we played were like Kutztown Normal School at that time, or Perkiomen Seminary, or Wyoming Seminary.

KVE: Not Lafayette.

HM: Not Lafayette. That came later on, you see. Then I noticed some people said, well you're just playing these prep schools, why not play colleges? Well, we had a small student body, we couldn't get any--[inaudible] the first time we played Lehigh were the Lehigh Scrubs as I remember. You see, we had to build up gradual, until when the student body became large and we had more men to--

KVE: choose from--

HM: So actually the first professional coach, as I recall, was a man of the name of Dr. George Barclay, who was a dentist. Now he coached the football team in the fall of 1906. As I recall he was the first professional coach we had. Now I'm pretty sure of that. Then they started to play-- prior to that time you 00:35:00bought your own, you bought your own uniform. We've had some kind of [inaudible] because every boy, every player paid for his own uniform [inaudible].

KVE: Well, who was your coach?

HM: Well then my-- coming back to 19[0]4 then, a former Muhlenberg student who had been in the Spanish American War and then finished his [inaudible]; he was a member of the Reformed faith. He had spent some time at Muhlenberg, delightful fella by the name of George [Lutz]. And he became a Reformed clergyman, he had graduated at F & M. And one day he came down to campus and he-- at the old College, and I remember him speaking to us, saying "You know I used to be at Muhlenberg, even though I'm not a graduate, I still have a love for the old institution. I'd like 00:36:00to help you fellas. And he coached us for a few games--

KVE: --very interesting

HM: --in 19[0]4. Then in 19[0]5, we still didn't have a professional coach, and I remember a man by the name of [Singmas?] that would play the football at Gettysburg, he offered his services. And Professor Reese and Dr. Jacobs, who was in the history department, apparently he had had some experience. So then we had these coaches to help us along and then we had a number of what the games were, I remember Perkiomen Seminary but what the others were I don't know. But I do know this, but I do know this that I played-- now it was the fall of 19[0]5, yes 19[0]5 and I remember very distinctly that after the Perkiomen game, my father stepped in and he said "Now young man, 00:37:00I want to tell you something" he said, "now you're playing football, and I have never approved of this." He didn't like-- was afraid I'd be injured, and he said "If you're gonna follow my profession, if you're gonna get into music, you've gotta play the piano and organ and suppose you break your fingers? What then?" He said, "I suggest you get out of this thing." So then I hung up my uniform in the fall of 19[0]5 to my regret. It was a hard thing for me to do, but I did it--

KVE: What position did you play, Professor Marks?

HM: At that time I played halfback and-- yes I played halfback at that time. As I recall it was halfback. But here's the thing you see, we had to do this, not having enough students then we'd call in outsiders. We'd call in ringers as 00:38:00you call them, have you heard that?--

KVE: --that's been done some other times too--

HM: --so actually, actually when we played that one game with Perkiomen, I remember we had an assortment of players, but how many Muhlenberg men were there? I don't know. [KVE (laughing)] But as I recall, one of our halfbacks had played football at Lafayette, we took him along. And someone else, some automobile dealer eh big heavy fella. He played guard or something like that. Then-- in other words we had [inaudible] I guess nobody questioned us at that time--

KVE: I hope you won--

HM: What's that?

KVE: I hope you won the game!

HM: Oh! We won the game! [laughing] but that was funny that ringer business we used to get a kick out of that.

KVE: Professor Marks, I think next we might turn to the story of the Alma Mater. Your name is indelibly associated with that and you've got a lot of details to 00:39:00set us straight on.

HM: Unfortunately I have been-- I have been given the credit for that composition and-- but I'll tell you the story as I know it. In the Ciarla-- I believe the first Ciarla was published in 1893. Now whether it was in this Ciarla-- anyway there was a student in the class of 1895 by the name of Edward Kistler, Edward H. Kistler. He was a member of one of the old Allentown families and he had a lovely voice. Now I didn't know him at that time, I was just-- probably only six [or] seven years old at the time, and he had sung in a chorus, a 00:40:00male chorus and also a mixed chorus in the city and he had a glorious bass voice. I do remember that because I-- as a matter of fact when I began to sing in this chorus later on I sat aside him; I learned a good deal from him. Well this man entered the-- entered the ministry--

KVE: Evangelical--

HM: Evangelical correct! Now Kistler must have been impressed with this male chorus. And at any rate, he wrote this alma mater for male voices. Not for a-- it wasn't even written for a group, as we say, in unison. He had, for instance, in four parts, there's first tenor, second tenor, first bass and second bass. It was written for a male chorus. And the theme always reminded me so much of a 00:41:00song by Schumann. I'm trying to think of the eh--

KVE: "Dedication"--

HM: "Dedication" right.

KVE: --I'm just quoting stories you told me earlier--

HM: --you're right about that because I discovered that later on. However, I knew very little about this song. In fact, we had no college songs when I first came to Muhlenberg. But then in 1914 or [19]15 evidently somebody had dug up this Kistler alma mater and made a very crude arrangement so it could be sung by a group. Well, I looked over it; they never asked me about it, but they had some of these copies printed, and the arrangement was really atrocious, I thought. Now 00:42:00some student had done this who didn't know anything about harmony. So I thought, well if they're gonna revive this thing then what I'll do is rearrange this thing and make it suitable for the student body to sing. And that's the way it came about.

KVE: I see. Well, your name is just associated always with it--

HM: --I know--

KVE: --so I thought it was yours--

HM: --I know, and they always give me the credit and all the credit should go to Kistler.

KVE: --well, not all--

HM: --all I did-- all I did was the arrangement, that's all. And then of course I arranged it later on for the college choir. I made a new arrangement there which is more suitable than the original arrangement. So Kistler--[audio breaks]

KVE: Professor Marks, you came to the College as an instructor in music in 1913, 00:43:00rather unexpectedly, I believe. Will you tell us about the circumstances of your coming and then about your work in the music department, please.

HM: You see, Father-- Father had died in October 1912 and of course I did-- I recall helping the boys, the Glee Club, they'd call me once in a while and I've give them some of my advice because I had been a member of the Glee Club as a student and was of course naturally interested in that work. So then in, I would say July or August 1913, I was elected organist at St. John's Lutheran Church. Now I do remember in the old days the College used to call St. John's the College Church, so maybe the boys attended services there as well as some of 00:44:00the other Lutheran churches like St. Michael's and so on. So I remember Dr. Haas came to me in, say, August and said "How would yo like to take your father's place? We'll have you there as an instructor of music." So naturally I was delighted; I never expected it. I joined the faculty. So I began my work in the fall and I continued the same courses as Father-- now the idea of these courses was this. Dr. Haas felt in 1905, already that they-- that they ought to have so-called cultural courses in the arts or music, for instance, like that. So I carried on the work the way Father had started. As I recall, the one course was in 00:45:00rudiments and harmony...I believe that was one course, rudiments and harmony. And then the other course was in history and appreciation. Now as I recall they were two hours. Then I was supposed to train the Glee Club-- [audio breaks]

About the course? Yes. Well, I continued those courses and in 19--, let's say in the 1920s, say around 1922, around there, Dr. Haas felt that I should 00:46:00accompany the Glee Club. Prior to that time, the Glee Club went out on their own, but then he thought I should accompany them and direct them at their-- these various concerts. So I recall one incident he said "I want to tell you something," he said. "I understand now these boys were entertained in private homes," in other words, in pairs. And I said that reports come back that these boys stay up pretty late nights. They don't get to bed in time, and he said "I think that you sorta-- you better check into that thing." He said "these boys are up at all hours of the night and of course their hosts naturally want to be very courteous to them and show them a good 00:47:00time, but they keep them up too late, and I think you ought to see that these fellas get to bed in time." Well I said "Doctor," I said, "for instance now the Glee Club's going to sing in Lancaster in a few nights; you don't expect me to run around Lancaster and check on all these fellas while they're in bed?" "No, but talk to them about this thing and see if you can't do something about it so they get their rest." So I had a little talk with the boys and I said "Boys, you know we're in a tour." We were in a tour at that time; we were giving about five concerts as I recall, a series, and then I said, "Now I'll tell you what I wish you'd do. We have to keep in shape," I said, "we have quite a few concerts," and I said, "you want to be in good form and I said if you stay up too late and don't get your rest 00:48:00I don't know what's gonna happen. I would suggest that you get to bed at a reasonable time". "Fine," one of the boys said "I think that's a good suggestion." All right. So at the-- at Lancaster, there was a campaign for the College at that time and Dr. John Brown, former head of the-- Chairman of the English Department, he accompanied the club and he made a few addresses at these different concerts, spoke to the people and made a plea for their support in this campaign. So after the concert at Lancaster, one of the Muhlenberg-- one of our great supporters in Lancaster, a man who was quite an influential businessman down there said "Now gentlemen, I wanna take you fellas to dinner," meaning Brown 00:49:00and myself. Well, we accepted the invitation and this was after the concert, so about 11 o'clock we sat down to a wonderful dinner. So we sat and we chatted and then finally about 12 or 1 o'clock our host said to us "Now gentlemen, I'd like to take you up to my store." He had a-- He was selling-- he had some kind of a stationary store and he also had some beautiful works of art which he wanted us to see. And actually we were absorbed in looking at these fine pictures and everything, and finally I looked at Dr. Brown and said, "Doctor it's getting pretty late, I think it's 2 o'clock, so we better go to our hotel." Brown said, "I guess that's right," so we started for our hote,l and we got down in the middle of the town in 00:50:00the square and on the opposite side of us here were the two freshman, members of the club. And I had just told these boys to get to bed in time. And all they said "Good morning professors!" [laughs] I'll never forget. So they had me on the spot. So it was something. And then I-- we had the Glee Club of course--

KVE: About how large? About how many in the Glee Club?

HM: The Glee Club was-- we started out in the beginning with say about sixteen and by that time we may have had four-- sixteen, eighteen, or so. And then the boys wanted to organize a jazz orchestra, and then we had to get into that. I wasn't particularly keen about that, but that's what they wanted. So we got along very well. So then, about 1930 we heard about this bequest had been left to the College; somebody passed away and then the College was eligible for a certain sum 00:51:00of money for the construction of a chapel. And then Dr. Haas said, now he said, "What we want to do is, we want to get an organ in there." So I was designated to go and look around and see what kind of organ, and the Ladies' Auxiliary by the way, they appropriated $20,000 which was a nice sum of money at that time. So I went around to different cities and tried to get the best advice I could, of course, and we installed the organ in the chapel and the chapel was dedicated in 1931. Now the point was that they were going to have vesper services every Sunday afternoon. And there was a demand for the choir to sing at other churches outside of the city. So frequently we'd have a service at say 3:30 in the afternoon, and then 4:30 or so we'd pack our gowns and so forth, get into a bus 00:52:00and we'd go to Reading or we even went as far as Philadelphia. It was a pretty hard day. And that was from about 1931. But the transition from a Glee Club to a college choir was not an easy one. I have always said I paved the way for my successors because a lot of the old-- I lost some of them, my singers, because all the old Glee Club, they thought of the good times they had, you know what I mean. They'd stay away overnight, you know several nights, now you get in the bus and you come back the same night. And the boys didn't, you know-- some of them didn't take to that. So it was really uphill work I would say for a while, until we got accustomed to the idea of a choir.

KVE: Professor Marks, was there any kind of chapel before the Egner Memorial--

HM: Yes. Yes we had an old chapel. I'll tell you, in the Ettinger Building when this was then the Administration Building--

KVE: That had everything didn't it?--

HM: That's right. The east side...now I'm just trying to figure what offices are in there now. The entire east side, the entire length--

KVE: The President's office, the Treasurer's office--

HM: That's right, the entire east length there was the chapel. Now how many you could seat there I don't know, but that's where we had--

KVE: Well, you said it was closed, didn't you? It was closed, it was closed on that east end too, wasn't it?. There wasn't an exit there or entrance--

HM: There was no exit, correct. You're right about that. There was no-- that's right. So that was our old chapel. And we'd come in and all we had was a piano, I think somebody had presented an old worn out organ to us at one time didn't work out--

KVE: Pump organ probably--

HM: Yes, I believe one of those old organs. And, of course, that's where we had our 00:54:00chapel service, and some classes were held in there later on. But that was where the old-- and of course boys went to chapel regular, they were supposed to go and a very simple service. I know Dr. Wackernagel, he was the chaplain, he had charge, and it was a very simple service, just the singing of a hymn or two or something like that.

KVE: But the Glee Club, which was in existence in the time of that chapel, wouldn't of course, have been singing in chapel. [HM: no]It's that when the Egner Memorial Chapel was built that you begin to develop the college choir [HM: that's right] I've got it. I didn't understand that.

HM: And I'll tell you, whether this is of any interest or not, I might say this, that I told you about how difficult it was to make an abrupt change, you might say, from a Glee Club to a choir. It was rather-- I can easily see the 00:55:00students' viewpoint. So when we had this first vesper service, one of the first veser services, and of course, we had no vestments, no gowns, boys just wore their street clothes. And one of the boys came to me one day and said "I think we ought to be vested." I said, "I agree, that it would be very nice but as I understand it there's no-- we haven't the necessary funds for vestments." And so in the meantime, I spoke to-- this is just another side of Dr. Haas, how generous he was. So I went to Dr. Haas and I say "Doctor," I said, "these boys think they ought to have vestments." He said, "I agree," but I said, "There's no money." He said, "I'll tell you what you'll do," he said, "You write to Cottrell and Leonard. Thats right, Cottrell and Leonard [inaudible] and you get an estimate on what a gown 00:56:00would cost." Now gowns weren't as expensive at that time, but I believe it was-- the material was poplin as I recall, and a black gown with a cardinal yoke. "So," he said, "you get an estimate," and I got an estimate and I think they said we could get these gowns for five dollars a piece [KVE: oh my], I think that was the price. Now he said, you order just as many as-- and I said "I think we'll need about 40, cause you may get some additional members." He said, "You order those gowns and you let me have the bill." And so I ordered the gowns and I got the bill and I gave it Dr. Haas and Dr. Haas paid the bill himself.

KVE: That's a great story--

HM: Now, at the end of that first year-- all that was shortly after we had these 00:57:00vesper services. Then at the end of the season, say in the beginning of June he said-- now he said "These boys have been very faithful. I'll you tell you what you do," he said. "I'd like to give these boys a banquet." And at that time the Hotel Allen was still in existence, that's where the First National-- the First National Bank is located there, and that was the Hotel Allen. He said "I want to give these boys a dinner." Good enough. So he made an appointment he says-- how many men there are. And now he said, "I'll tell you what else I want you to do. I want--these boys have been faithful. I want you to go to the bank." And at that time the gold hadn't been called in, you see, and you could get five dollar gold pieces. Now he said "I'll tell you what I want you to do, I want you to go to the bank and I want you to get gold pieces for each of these thirty-eight or forty members," 00:58:00and he says, "You get little boxes and you put these in there and that's gonna be a gift for their faithfulness and serving in the choir." So I went to the bank and got all of these gold pieces in little boxes. I brought them to the dinner, and Doctor made a speech and thanked the boys for their service, and he said he had a little something for them here and each boy got a five dollar gold piece--

KVE: That's remarkable. That must have been right in the Depression years, wasn't it?

HM: Yes it was. I'd say 1931--

KVE: --'32 maybe--

HM: --about '32. That's right because the gold hadn't been called [KVE: No] in yet--

KVE: --that's right until '33--

HM: So I thought that was very, very gen-- but he was very, very friendly to the choir, and I knew he often said "I wish we could remunerate these boys in some way or another." So he did leave a sum of $50,000 after Mrs. Haas-- after they 00:59:00both passed away. I still have a copy of the will. $50,000 for the [inaudible] to be used for-- to get preachers and also for the music of the chapel [KVE: Isn't that nice] I think it was supposed to divided fifty-fifty or something like that as I recall--

KVE: --He appreciated the work you did as well as the students--

HM: Yes. Now a lot of those things have been forgotten but he was really very liberal in that respect.

KVE: I'd like to go back if you don't mind for a moment--

HM: No go, please do--

KVE: --to something that I didn't get around to asking when we were talking about your student days. Literary societies were a major feature of most colleges around the turn of the century [HM: yes] and Muhlenberg had at least two [HM: that's right] the Sophronian and the Euterpean. And you were a 01:00:00Sophronian I believe, [HM: I was Sophronian that's right] would you tell us a little about that?

HM: Yes, I'll, you know, that's rather interesting. I believe I discovered this in one of the old Ciarlas, I'm inclined to believe there was also a Franklin Literary Society.

KVE: I thought there was a third, but its name I couldn't remember.

HM: But when I came to Muhlenberg, there were two, Sophronian and the Euterpean. And you'd be surprised how these upperclassmen put pressure on you to join their different--why they, they put as much pressure on you as they would I guess if you joined a fraternity or something like that. Ooh yeah, I remember a relative of mine used to say that the out-of-town boys, boys from distant cities like that, they'd join Euterpean and the local men would join Sophronian. And these fellas thought well this is terrible, I didn't join Euterpean, well I joined Sophronian because my friends were all Sophronian. Now my personal reaction, I 01:01:00think those-- I hated to see them passing away, I'll tell you why. When they passed I don't know the [inaudible]. But I will say this. We'd have meetings Wednesday afternoons as I recall. Sophronia used to meet on the top floor of the Administration building, the Ettinger Building. The west end that was one big hall, it wasn't divided. And then we'd come in there and-- eh, let's see. Well, we'd have essays for example, recitations, and-- eh what else did we have. Oh! We'd have debates! That I thought was a good thing, we'd have debates and above all things, impromptu speaking. I remember now if you were called upon 01:02:00[what the fine was I don't know] they would assign you a topic and you were supposed to make a-- whatever the length was two or three minutes, make an impromptu speech on this particular subject. If you didn't do it, well you were fined a quarter as I recall something like that.

KVE: I see. Did you ever meet the other society in debate? Or were these all intramural--

HM: --never met no. As far as I recall in my time, this was all in our own society. But there was great rivalry between these. Why that was I don't know. I could never see that.

KVE: Well, my brother went to a small college, a German college, in Ohio in the '30s and there were still literary societies then. And he still has his friends among the boys of the literary society he belonged to and the others are from outside. But that's as late as the '30s.

HM: Is that right. So I always felt, it was a good thing, I felt they had their 01:03:00merits as far as [inaudible] you had to attend of course and I remember one of the [laughs] one of the favorite subjects for debate was this, even at that time, the yellow peril [KVE: (laughs) TR, yes, yes] I'll never forget that, the yellow peril. Imagine back in nineteen-four and five, having a debate on the yellow peril.

KVE: But that was Teddy Roosevelt's phrase for the Japanese--

HM: Pardon me?

KVE: --that was Theodore Roosevelt's phrase for the Japanese

HM: Yes I think so--

KVE: --it must have come from that. Tell me another thing would you please-- was everyone at Muhlenberg College either a member of Euterpean or Sophronian? Or were many outside both societies?

HM: I believe everyone joined one as far as I know. They all joined either one 01:04:00or the other as far as I know.

KVE: And one further question please--

HM: Pardon me?

KVE: One further question. There are a number of books in Muhlenberg's library which have plates inside saying gift of the Sophronian or gift of the Euterpean literary societies, did you have dues? Did you have drives to collect money and then give books to the library?

HM: I don't know how they raised the money but-- but each, each, each society had its own library.

KVE: I see and then they were combined to this one--

HM: --that's right and when the College moved out here, or rather when they dropped these societies then I think they simply put--

KVE: --amalgamated the books--

HM: As far as I know yes. But they had some excellent books in those libraries--

KVE: --there are some good ones, some classics--

HM: Yes, ery, very good.

KVE: Mr. Davidson has written an article on these societies and I have read it, but I can't find it and he's out of the country right now so I'm not as informed upon this as I really ought to be.

HM: I think they had their merits. I always felt, just my own judgement, that 01:05:00there was something valuable about those-- about those literary societies. That's the way I felt about it.

KVE: Well they were good practice certainly in reading and writing no doubt--

HM: Pardon me

KVE: They were good practice in reading and writing--

HM: I think they were, yes, I think that's right. And you had a-- whatever the impromptu speech was I know they could be outlandish [laughs] subjects. What are you gonna say, well you're supposed to say something --

KVE: How about women's suffrage, that must have been a good subject at that time--

HM: I don't remember--

KVE: Didn't come up around here?--

HM: But I'll tell you what the-- what the societies used to do. They'd have, occasionally they'd have a little ah-- what did they call them...reception! I remember my first year we had a reception for Sophronia down at the old building and whatever they had, they had a lunch and I think I had a recitation and something 01:06:00like that--perhaps a piano solo or something like that. I remember the boys of coursesaid, ah bring your girl along if you had a girl or bring some girl along for these affairs, they were very nice--

KVE: Very nice indeed.

HM: I know we had one eh, we had one of these receptions out here, Sophronia in the new building and-- I remember that very well. Dr. Barba came out and he had whoever he had, some girl and, eh, I don't know who I brought, doesn't matter anymore. But we had a wonderful evening. A nice social evening and we enjoyed it thoroughly. [audio breaks]

Speaking about student pranks, and Dr. Ettinger used to tell this story how some of the boys used to take their physical culture as an elective at 12 o'clock midnight when a heavy coal wagon was taken apart downstairs. The various 01:07:00parts and the coal were quietly carried up to the fifth floor and put together again. Dr. Ettinger commenting on this prank called it a fine illustration in the concrete of the processes of analysis in taking apart the wagon on the first floor and of synthesis of putting it together again on the fifth floor. The Doctor used to tell that story and I've heard about that. That was before my time. Now there was nothing bad about that-- there's nothing malicious about it--

KVE: No! It's hijinks, it's youthful fun--

HM: It's like Dr. Wackernagel used to say [inaudible] "you boys aren't-- you're not bad boys. You're just mischievous." Things like this you know.

KVE: Professor Marks I'd like to ask you to exercise one of your gifts that 01:08:00still remains. It's noted in the Ciarla of the year you graduated as your most favorite and natural piece of acting. Your mimicry of the inhabitant from your native Emmaus on beholding the National Bank building for the first time. Could you do that?

HM: Yes, I used to do this: I'd pull my hat down as far as I could. Then I look up...I open my mouth and look at the building and the first time I see this high building, I used to do that--

KVE: Picture of a man stupified by this grandeur I suppose--

HM: That was my trick [KVE (laughs)]

KVE: Very nice, I wish we could have had that on living color as well as...sound--

HM: -- That's correct about that [audio breaks]

KVE: Professor Marks, you've been with Muhlenberg College a long time from your 01:09:00beginnings as a student through your service as head of the Music Department. You retired in 1952. And as you look back over those years of your involvement with Muhlenberg, what do you think are the changes in faculty, in students, in ideas if there are some, from the time of your beginnings, your earliest associations to those at your retirement.

HM: Well, as I look back, actually my retirement was-- would be in 1951. I remember they had a dinner for the-- for the members of the faculty who were retiring at that time. And then of course I was told, later on notified that I could 01:10:00continue for another year until they found a successor. Now of course I've seen so many changes it's so hard, of course-- what the student body was in 1952, what the number was I don't know, could I say five hundred or a thousand, I don't know. It's hard sometimes, sometimes I can hardly imagine, when I look at the-- when I think of the student body when I came to it in those early years and the size of the student body today, that's simply amazing to me. However, I always felt this, that the College has always made forward strides. I think that even in my time I felt that the academic standards certainly were higher, no question about it. We had 01:11:00excellent people come in and the faculty was larger naturally, and I have always felt that Muhlenberg has been forging ahead as I say, and I think we rank very high among institutions. I recall meeting a man not too many years ago and we got to talking about colleges. He told me he was a graduate of a technical school-- wanted to know where I'd gone to college and then I told him and he pronounced it "Mullinberg." "You've been at Mullinberg. You know I've heard a good deal of Mullinberg." He said it's a mighty fine school, he said, and he said that, "now my training" he said, "now I'm a retired ATT engineer." I believe he had graduated at Stevens Institute, as I recall. And we got to know each other quite well and 01:12:00in the course of our conversation he said, now he said "I had a thorough scientific education" he said "I'm retired now," but he said "there's something I had missed and I envy you having gone to a liberal arts college. That's one thing that I miss." And I thought that was a wonderful thing; he said "I envy you, I wish I had had that opportunity to have a good liberal arts education and that's what I think every engineer is missing."

KVE: That's exactly the theme on which I'd like to end, Professor Marks. I know that your ideal of a liberal arts man is the one that people who are still engaged in the liberal arts teaching adhere to. You said the other day that you were reading Montaigne's essays [HM: yes!] and I came upon something that seems to me to be descriptive of you within that wise book: "A wise man never loses 01:13:00anything if he has himself." Which is a statement loaded with the significance of the importance of learning what is important and being able to live by it. You seem to me to exemplify that well.

HM: Well there's another thing that I enjoy about Montaigne and that's this. Where he says that...eh, oh. He speaks about-- he'd rather have-- he said "I may have wrinkles--" I'm paraphrasing this, "I may have wrinkles on my face but what I'm trying to avoid is wrinkles in my mind" [laughs].

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