Interview with Anne Nugent, July 13, 1975

BREMER: This is Chaplain David H. Bremer speaking from the Muhlenberg Room on the afternoon of July 13th, 1975. With me today are Ms. Anne Nugent, Associate Dean of Students, and Professor Claude Dierolf, who for many years, uh, was a colleague of Ms. Nugent's in the office of the Dean of Students. Ms. Nugent, who came to Muhlenberg College as Dean of Women in the fall of 1958 is retiring on August 31st of this year. She has consented to share with us today some of her memories of her time at Muhlenberg.

Anne Graham Nugent came to Muhlenberg College from Temple University where she was Assistant Professor teaching in the field of Early Childhood and Elementary Education. Before that, she was an instructor at the Iowa Child Welfare Research Station at the State University of Iowa. She is a graduate of the University of California at Los Angeles and has a master's degree from the State University in Iowa.

Anne, let me begin by asking you to reflect on, uh, those early beginnings of your career at Muhlenberg, and how was it that you happen to come to Muhlenberg?

NUGENT: Well, I went to Temple University in 1949. And the first year I was there I lived in the top floor of Dr. Mrs. J. Conrad Seegers house out in the Mt. Airy section. Coming out okay? (laughs)

BREMER: I think it's recording.

NUGENT: And, uh, so I got fairly well acquainted with Hazel and Dr. Seegers during that year. And he was, um, the director of the--it wasn't really College of Education at that point, but it was the unit that dealt with Secondary and 00:02:00Elementary Preschool Education, Business Education, all the other kinds of education courses. It seems appalling that I've forgotten the title but-- (both laugh)

So, I was fairly well acquainted with them and, uh, it was not too long after that, that he was being approached to come up to Muhlenberg and be president of the college. And I know that he and his wife did a lot of soul searching at that time. He knew that the college was in bad financial straits, that uh, that needed somebody who had the ability to work and a lot of dedication to Muhlenberg. And from him, I heard about Muhlenberg for the first time in my life. And finally in 1952, they did decide to come up to Allentown, so that he 00:03:00could be president of the college. Of course, he had strong ties with the college because he was a graduate of the class of 1913. And uh, Mrs. Seegers had been on many college campuses for a number of years, and she was extremely devoted to Muhlenberg too.

As I saw him after those years, he began to talk about the possibility of having women as part of the student body. And um, I know that he, Pastor Shlenker, and a dear old pastor, whose name I've forgotten, who has died since--the man who, um, was lame and--

BREMER: --oh yes, from um, the Saint--

NUGENT: (both talking) He was involved with the committee that, um, explored coeducation.

BREMER: Yeah, I know what you mean.

NUGENT: Mhm. Um, he used to tell me about what was happening and then, uh, I heard the college had become coeducational. And sometime in the spring of 1958, after he'd been gone from Temple for six years, I guess, I had a phone call from him one day asking me if I would come up and talk to him and also with Hazel, and I wasn't quite sure what it was about. I thought maybe they needed somebody in education, or something of that kind, but I came up one spring day--and that was when you had to come up the old 309-- (laughs)

BREMER: Right, yeah. (chuckles)

NUGENT: And Dorothy Seegers gave me, uh, very explicit directions about the turn 00:05:00off from 22, and how--what a sharp turn off it was to get to Cedar Crest Blvd. So, uh, I talked with him and discovered that he was looking for somebody to be Dean of Women after the first year of coeducation because the previous dean was leaving to go to another college. And so, I debated, and I talked with a few people, and I finally thought perhaps this would be a good experience for me that I did it.

BREMER: Anne when you arrived at, uh, Muhlenberg, it was certainly a different school than it is now. (laughs)

NUGENT: Yes indeed.

BREMER: And, uh, coeducation had just started. And it uh--we had one year of it. Although, as I recall, a very small group of women students--

NUGENT: Ninety women, I believe.

BREMER: Ninety women as beginning that first year. What are your, uh, 00:06:00recollections of that early, those early years of coeducation at Muhlenberg?

NUGENT: Well, one of the first things that happened to me was when I got into the office--and at that time we were civilized, we started after Labor Day--uh, was going out to the leadership conference at the Ormrod (laughing) with you and with Claude--

BREMER: (chuckles) Oh my, yes.

NUGENT: --and beginning to get acquainted with some of the student leaders. And there weren't too many women among them. They had been included as part of the group, but I, I think, you two had, kind of, selected a few women that you thought should be included.

DIEROLF: (unintelligible)

NUGENT: That's right. And, uh warning about the beats meals at Ormrod. Before I came up here, people down at Muhlen--uh at Temple said, "You're going to be 00:07:00spending all your time deciding about shorts and jeans and, uh, you must have some white gloves to wear." Well it was true, in those days, I mean with the white gloves and (unintelligible) to wear on my head. (laughs)

BREMER: Was the union built--oh no

NUGENT: (both talking) Oh no, oh no--

BREMER: No the union--

NUGENT: We had the old, uh, student center--

BREMER: --oh yeah, the old student center--

NUGENT: Not the Commons, the old shack--

BREMER: Yes, but we didn't really begin with the...those sit-down meals with the women--

NUGENT: (interjects) Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

DIEROLF: Right down over in the old place--

NUGENT: Sure, in the Commons we had sit down meals, uh-huh, uh-huh.

DIEROLF: (both talking) That started with coeducation.

NUGENT: And we had a rebellion there one, uh, year--and I don't know if it was the first year or after that--because the quality of the food. And, then we got a new food manager, uh, but it was kind of interesting--family style service and 00:08:00people did look forward to--

BREMER: But was it--it was a sit-down meal twice a week, was it?

NUGENT: No, every night.

BREMER: Every night it was sit-down?

NUGENT: Except maybe weekends.

DIEROLF: Yes, not on weekends, but every night during the week, I think.

NUGENT: And I did spend a lot of time talking with the house mothers--at that time, we had Mrs. Himelman and Mrs. Eschelmen--about whether women students might wear shorts to go and help decorate floats, um, whether they could wear shorts if they were leaving the campus, or jeans, to go on a picnic, uh, what kinds of shorts. And at that time, we didn't have short-shorts. We had Bermudas and--there was another name.

DIEROLF: Jamaicas?

NUGENT: Jamaicas, uh-huh. The Bermudas were knee-length, but Jamaicas were not fit for consumption here on campus.

DIEROLF: Or was it culottes?

NUGENT: Well, that was a little bit--those were more, uh, decent according to most of our feelings at that time. And we spent a lot of time on curfews and on women who didn't get in on time and Women's Council functions. I think very effectively really in terms of government of the residence halls, including commuters, um, in activities that were going on--because there was a fairly good group of commuters at that time and they were active. And--

BREMER: I recall that there was, uh, when coeducation was first proposed, there was a great deal of resistance from the present student body, from the alumni, and even from the faculty. And uh, most of the people teaching at Muhlenberg at that time had gone to men's colleges. They were very, I don't--were there any women on the faculty? I don't recall.

NUGENT: Oh, yes. Dr. Mortimer was here, and Ms. Funk was a member of the faculty at that time.

BREMER: (both talking) Yes, I know Ms. Funk.

NUGENT: And Janet Stamm came the same year I came.

BREMER: One of the things the faculty thought would be that coeducation would bring down the, uh, academic standards of the college.

NUGENT: Well, it turned out to be slightly different.

BREMER: (all laughing) It certainly did. In fact, uh--

NUGENT: We've raised the standards of the college.

BREMER: Yes, and it did, uh, many other fine things, I think for Muhlenberg, too. It, uh, it provided, well, it certainly enriched the musical and artistic (unintelligible) life of the college--

NUGENT: Foreign language field.

BREMER: I recall, uh, the resistance of--

NUGENT: Even the English department.

BREMER: Oh, yes.

DIEROLF: Particularly the English department. (all laugh)

BREMER: I recall the pre-Theo students at Muhlenberg and how, uh, upset they were when I invited a coed to read a scripture for the first time at one of the chapel services, and I'm sure that they thought the roof was going to fall in. 00:11:00In fact, I think they boycotted that service, and, uh, how different things are now.

NUGENT: Well, I remember, too, that first year, the, uh, Freshman Tribunal, and the way that the members of the Tribunal--and I think that the first year I was here I think there were only three women on the Tribunal--the way they bore down on the freshmen women in terms of regulations and knowing the songs and being able to repeat the pledge and all kinds of things--and women were scared of them, they really were.

I remember one particular man who was in college that year and then he took a leave of absence, and then he came back later on, and I had him in a Child's Psychology class--which is rather interesting, for me (laughs). And then I saw him recently, at his 15th reunion. And, uh, I guess that's one of the greatest 00:12:00satisfactions to see, uh, students go through the college for four years and see the way that they develop from, um, what I sometimes consider a rather unfinished state. And then see them when they graduate and see them as alumni, you know, of the college at reunions or as they come back for other kinds of activities. And some that I had very little hope for, I must say, turned out to be very nice people (laughs) in later years.

BREMER: Anne, I believe you always had a group of freshmen advisees with you.

NUGENT: Up until last year. I had a group--as a matter of fact, the son of one of our Board of Trustees members, among my first group of freshmen advisees, and he wondered how in heaven's name he had ever gotten the Dean of Women as his advisor (laughs) and so did his family.

BREMER: (both laughing) I think one of the misnomers, uh, about that position you held is that someone in the position of Dean of Women or Associate Dean of Students, as you know, you've held that title for the last...well, since--

NUGENT: --1968, I believe--

BREMER: --'68--that someone in that position would only be dealing with women students, but that certainly has not been true, has it? (laughs)

NUGENT: (both laughing) Fortunately, it hasn't. Well, I must say the first years I was here, um, I worked primarily with women and with women's activities, and then as they patched on men's activities with them, too. In the last few years, I think I've gotten acquainted with a wider group of the male student body than was true the first few years.

DIEROLF: Well, we've integrated all the way around, uh, for a long time, the working Women's Council, for example, and very closely. Maybe you 00:14:00should say something about Women's Council because it's something of the past now, it's no longer in existence, and uh, if anyone can speak about Women's Council, you can.

NUGENT: Well, I found Women's Council established when I came here. And the first president that I worked with was Jayne Kuntzleman, "Moxie", who was the daughter of Pastor Walder Kuntzleman. And they had, um, a constitution set up, they had regulations set up. What I had to do was to get acquainted with them, and I really appreciated the house mothers because they looked at the curfew hours that were set for the women in those years--I think in 1957, although I haven't found a '57 M-Book in my file--that freshmen women were supposed to be in Brown Hall, which was then West Hall, at 7:30 p.m. in the evening and not to 00:15:00go out afterwards, and upperclass women had another hour added on. But there weren't very many upperclass women, they were mostly freshmen and sophomores when I came here. There had been a few transfer students come in the first year and the second year, but not very many.

And uh, they took--had women's council meetings, which the house mothers and I attended, and they considered social events and suggested improvements in some of the physical facilities that, uh, they were coping with in the residence halls. Although, Mrs. Seegers did a magnificent job in re-constructing that building into a women's residence hall, and she worked hard at it.

BREMER: She was quite an interior decorator for women.

NUGENT: (chuckles) Yeah. One very smart thing that was done was not to fill Brown Hall with students the first year of coeducation. The women lived on the first floor south and on the second floor, and the third floor was being completed the year, the first year that I was here in 1958. And then our enrollment in women began to go up, and we found that we needed additional spaces for women. We took over Bernheim House one year for the Junior Counsellor program and then expanded to Walz Hall, which at that time was called Prosser Hall.

DIEROLF: Right, yeah.

NUGENT: And then, eventually to Prosser Hall. I got the verdict from Women's Council. But, uh, that was a group of women I really got very well acquainted 00:17:00with. The majority of them were extremely conscientious, they were nice people to work with, um. A number of them are women that I keep in contact with through the years--primarily at Christmas time. Amy Lou Hawman, who is now Mrs. Thomas Reinshill, was in the class of--that came in 1958, and her three sisters have since come to Muhlenberg, two as freshmen and one as a transfer student, so I have known the Hawman family for a long time. And they've all been active in various kinds of things on campus, and Amy, and Betsy, and Judy, were all active in Women's Council the years that they were here. But I mention this because I was invited to go out with the Hawman's after their last daughter, Isabelle, 00:18:00graduated this year, so that it was kind of a beginning and ending for them and for me. And I was very pleased about it, I must say. (laughing) I had a great time too.

That was a time when I cooked more than I do these days and was more energetic, so I usually invited Women's Council over for a meal at least each semester at my apartment and had a few standard little things that they liked, like brownies. I didn't mind repeating these from year to year. (laughs)

DIEROLF: Anne, you know, when you were talking about the housing and the residence halls we got and the coming of Bernheim--I wonder if you would talk a little bit about the Senior Counseling program because it seemed to me 00:19:00that was a very successful program, and you indicated that started when Bernheim became available for housing.

NUGENT: Well, that was kind of an interesting, um, and kind of last minute decision, too, because we had already done our housing for the fall when we discovered that Dr. Richards, who was that time the Dean of the Faculty, was moving out of Bernheim house where he had lived and was going into a home of his home. We did need housing for women students, so Dr. Seegers talked with me about the possibility of housing students there, and I was reluctant to house freshmen there--partly for security reasons and partly because I thought it would cut them off from the rest of the campus.

We developed a program, Claude was in on this too, of writing to senior women who had already been assigned--to ask them if they would be interested in living 00:20:00in Bernheim House for one year--no, we wrote to junior women, excuse me--uh, to live in Bernheim House during their junior year to attend seminars, which we held approximately every other week, to get some background about the college, the campus, the jobs at different times that people had on the campus, and then to return to Brown Hall and Walz Hall, which was about to be opened, as senior counselors. Because one of the things I found the first couple of years I was here was that there would be women who, who nobody knew--uh, the house mothers didn't know them, the upper class students didn't know them, the freshmen 00:21:00faculty advisors didn't know them, and the student advisors didn't know them. These were the students who went to class, and then they went back to their rooms. And they just got lost in whatever room they happened to be in, and they didn't ask for help from anybody. Some of these were the students who left college because they felt lonesome, neglected, out of place. And it seemed to be some upperclassmen had some responsibility for a group of students that they could visit them, try to, you know, not police them but be alert to whether they were surviving satisfactorily or not, and if not let one of us know, our office, or you, or the doctor, or somebody that they had some feeling for--get to these 00:22:00young women--I'm sure the same thing was true for men, but I was not really very responsible for male residence at that time. And I think it was a successful program, um, there was a kind of cohesion in Bernheim House. The women were generally good friends, they have remained friends through the years, and they get together periodically. So, I was really quite satisfied with that program.

BREMER: One of the things that, uh, happened, as I recall, with coeducation was some changes in the pattern of social life and social activities of the college. As a men's college, everything seemed to center around big date weekends, uh, where girls would be brought to the campus and--actually they live in the fraternities (unintelligible). They were these 00:23:00big weekends and that was just about it. But with the coming of coeducation, gradually, things began to change and, uh, and social life got on a much more even field. But in the beginning, Muhlenberg students--Muhlenberg male students--were dating girls from Cedar Crest or home, and it was a rather slow process of getting that, uh, social integration (laughs) going at Muhlenberg.

NUGENT: You're very right about that. And even in the first two or three years I was here, Muhlenberg was largely a suitcase college. The residence halls emptied out quite often for people who lived close enough--both men and women. There was a women's side of the campus and a men's side of the campus, and most of the women were reluctant to go over in the Martin Luther-East Hall area. Some of them didn't even like to walk through the quadrangle to go to George's at the 00:24:00campus shop at that time because they thought they would be, you know, kind of blatantly seeking out male companionship.

And, uh, they had a chance to get acquainted in classes in some cases--although I find their classes, in many situations, are not particularly friendly courses (laughs). They had a chance to participate in activities, um, and some of them did--athletic or religious social activities on the campus, where the women had a chance to get acquainted with men in a non-dating way, but it was a, it was dating campus. If men went over to Brown Hall, they were there--

DIEROLF: For panty raids. (chuckles)

NUGENT: Well, for a date, uh, to pick up a girl they had a date with. So, I was really rather gladdened we--developed the idea of having coeducational residence 00:25:00halls. I remember one of the early Buckhill conferences we were talking about residence halls, and I think I--I know I--said something about having coed residence halls and had a few people look at me in a peculiar kind of a way.

DIEROLF: For a church-revered college?

NUGENT: That's right. (all laugh) Supposedly, a liberal arts college.

BREMER: Right. (Anne laughs)

DIEROLF: You know, Anne, they were talking about the social programming and we had these big weekends and that was pretty much it. Do you remember any of the changes that gradually came about? I think, for example, the one that became a big weekend, uh, in time, uh, the Spring Sing kind of thing. Was that here when you came?

NUGENT: That, that I inherited. It started the year before, and it was something that had been done at a different college. And it also had 00:26:00attached to it the ring ceremony. Do you remember that? (chuckles)

BREMER: Oh yeah. I remember the ring ceremony.

NUGENT: Well, that was--

DIEROLF: Cedar Crest still does that, don't they?

NUGENT: I've never seen pictures of that recently, so I don't know whether they do it or not. But uh, we had Spring Sing and it was required--this was another thing that Women's Council did in planning and supervising--and if a student wanted not to be in Spring Sing, she had to write a letter to the president of Women's Council and ask for permission not to be there. And these were considered very carefully in Women's Council meetings. Quite often, our Spring Sing coincided with Lehigh's Spring Weekend, so there was a real conflict.

And it was, I think it was kind of fun, um, with the women writing their own 00:27:00words to popular tunes and singing them, parents being invited. And it finally was attached to a parents' weekend, um, for a number of years.

BREMER: I remember the first Spring Sing, I opened them with prayer. Do you remember that? (chuckles)

NUGENT: Yes. It could have been Florence Keimer, who asked if we could omit that at one time. (all laugh)

BREMER: (laughing) I know it didn't last very long.

NUGENT: And we ended singing the alma mater, which we gave up when it wasn't essential for freshmen to learn the alma mater and very few of our students seemed to know it.

DIEROLF: No, I notice that at the graduation, that uh, there are a number of seniors that have only a vague idea of what to sing.

NUGENT: The faculty does pretty well.

BREMER: Well, we have the words printed in programs so that helps. (Anne laughs)

Break in recording

BREMER: Anne, when you came to Muhlenberg with...just very shortly after we began coeducation that role of Dean of Women, as it was called then, was not very carried upon. In fact, the whole role of women in the life of the college was something that was, uh, being developed. It seems to me that over the years, you have had the great part in developing that position, now Associate Dean of Students. Why don't you talk a little bit about some of the things that you developed as the Dean of Women, later Associate Dean of Students.

NUGENT: Alright. Well, one of the first things that I was told by 00:29:00Claude when I came into the office was that I should get a coffee pot so I could make coffee in the office.

BREMER: That was pretty nice. (chuckles)

NUGENT: At that point, I didn't know him very well so I went out and got a coffee pot. (all laughing)

DIEROLF: Wouldn't work now. (Anne laughs)

NUGENT: And we used to make coffee in the office a great deal, um, for meetings and for the staff. I was a little surprised that he didn't move into the bigger office, but he liked his little cubbyhole and he had it the way he wanted it. The only thing--

DIEROLF: (unintelligible)

NUGENT: (laughing) With green and red leather chairs. And uh, the only thing I wanted that Claude wouldn't let me do was a kind of a peek-through, cubbyhole, you know with a door to open between--or window--between the offices, so I could 00:30:00stick my head through and see what he was doing. (all laugh)

DIEROLF: Here you're one way nearer.

NUGENT: But, I think because of my interest in people when I was teaching and my long experience in nursery school education and teaching young children, um, I wanted to know things about people, not just have a name on a piece of paper and, uh, maybe I was nosy--I'm sure I was nosy. In some cases, it was wise that I was.

I started out inviting the women students to come in and talk with me in the office, the ones that I didn't know, the ones that I met through Women's Council, um, just to get acquainted with them and have them have some acquaintance with the office because I wanted to avoid that their having the same feeling when I was in college and that was "Stay out of the dean's office, 00:31:00completely," (chuckles) which I managed to avoid to a large extent.

And then as the school became a little bit bigger, I still had this concern about lost students who need some help but don't tell anybody and nobody realizes it. For instance, I, I just wrote a letter to a woman who should be graduating next year who has sixty hours to complete, and I'm not sure she can do it. And I think she was timid and didn't go to people for advice, and I'm not sure she would have gotten, uh, the best advice about courses, which sounds like a snide thing to say, but it's true at times.

Um, so, as the college became a little bit larger and I knew more of the 00:32:00upperclass women and some of the upperclass men, I used to make appointments with freshmen women at the first semester, and the group has gotten so big that I can't complete seeing them the first semester anymore, there're always some who hang over in the second semester--but just to ask them into the office and see how things are going with them, uh. See how they feel about their courses and what kinds of grades they've gotten on hourlies, quizzes, things of that kind, if they understand the assignments that are being made for them and what activities they may be involved in and how much they go home. You know, it's not the same all of the time, but various incendiary kinds of things. I think it's kind of paid off because I do have freshmen who come back into the office to ask questions.

DIEROLF: (unintelligible)

NUGENT: Or males, so they also get the word from other students who had a talk with me, but they're, they're a little scared about this to begin with.

BREMER: I think that you can get to know students and develop some kind of rapport with them before a crisis becomes, or an emergency which they need special help, they feel much more comfortable coming to you.

NUGENT: Mhm.

DIEROLF: Well, I think that one of the things that always surprises them is how much Anne knows about them when they're here. Of course, they don't know that she's done a great deal of homework. She's followed them through for their very first steps so that when they sit down with her for the first time, she already knows a great deal about them, their family, all those sort of things.

NUGENT: (interjects) Well, that hasn't been as true the last couple of years though since I've not been doing the housing too.

DIEROLF: No, that's right.

NUGENT: Which makes a difference. I also used to be all involved with difficulties with housing and trying to make rearrangements with people who 00:34:00simply could not live together and that was easier in the first years because we had some spaces and almost literal--(unintelligible; Dierolf and Nugent speaking simultaneously).

Yes, but I think that was one good step. When we had two Assistant Deans of Students who were both women, we used to try to divide up the women students and--for instance, Lenore would ask in the women in the sophomore class and Pam Herrick would ask in the people in the junior class, and I'd concentrate on the freshmen first semester and then try to talk to senior women second semester.

I don't know whether anybody will continue this, but again, I think that this has been a rather good idea because, um, our students, in many cases, are not 00:35:00prepared to go out and take care of the business aspects of being independent. And I'm not sure I'm the best person to help them, but I have tried over the past six or eight years to talk with senior women before they leave--talk to them about AAUW [American Association of University Women], about whether they can handle checking accounts, about savings accounts and establishing some system for saving--with some people that I know are going to be making a lot of money, I suggest that they get acquainted with good ways of investing their money (chuckles) uh, talk with them about keeping in touch with the Alumni Office and about the fact that there are people here who know them, who will be glad to write references for them if they need them at a later date. And recently, I've been asking them if they have ever thought about writing a will, 00:36:00and very few college students have thought about this. I'm not expecting them to go out and do it immediately, but they are adults and they do have some things--this is again a good business method for them--so, um. And I think it takes--not with everybody, not everybody comes in, which is you know, it's completely voluntary.

I also talk with them about how they're going to find friends that they enjoy in a new community, if they're single or if they're married because there are many times when a married woman doesn't have the same group of friends that her husband may have in business, and she really has to look for people that she feels compatible with or--and that they both feel compatible with. So, those are some things that have been happening off and on.

BREMER: What, uh, what you've been saying Anne about the way you define your role at Muhlenberg, it seems to me it's been largely that of trying to be a friend, a counselor, uh, to understand the needs of the students and to try to respond to those needs. In ways that--

NUGENT: (Anne begins to speak but stops) Let me um--

BREMER: In ways, that may, uh, you know go beyond what you would normally associate with the position of Dean of Students. One thing that has not been particularly associated with your role--I-I, it's hard for me to think of you as a--rigid disciplinarian.

NUGENT: Well, I just wanted to say that this was a role that I think both Claude and I had when I first came here. We both got involved in discipline with students, and I go back to the, um, one of the first women, who was here--not the one who set all of the fires, but the one who tried to committ suicide--was 00:38:00such a difficult person to have in the residence halls. And uh, my role with her--and I'm not sure that I was very helpful to her. I think about the, the student who was forging checks. We brought in a detective from the Allentown Police Department to see if we could find out who was forging the checks, and we did eventually. We suggested that she leave school. We didn't suspend her or expel her, but she did withdraw from school, which I think was good. She had some problems that were not helping--that we were not helping here and that she wasn't able to change while she was here.

I really think our offices shifted a great deal to being more a counseling kind 00:39:00of an office than a disciplinary office. I have had very little discipline to do. The most that I do the last few years is deciding whether somebody should have an extension or a waiver on room deposit.

DIEROLF: You know, things have changed a great deal at Muhlenberg in the years you've been here. It seems that, uh, that they changed during the 60s with Vietnam and all the turmoil that was associated with that. Earlier in the run-on tape you said that, uh, I was wise to not be around during the worst of it during the Cambodian period. How do you feel about those years as you look back on them? Were they as bad as they seemed to be at the time?

NUGENT: Well, I think it was a time when our student body, uh, they had more experiences, before they came to Muhlenberg--in independence and working away from home, in traveling, being in groups or by themselves or two or three of them, both abroad and in this country, in having access to cars to visit friends away from home, and they were more independent. They were less willing to accept rules that seemed kind of silly to them. And this was when we began to shift curfews for women, to make regulations for men and women a little bit more reasonable and a little bit more similar, uh, to each other.

Women's Council began to be at the point where they did not want me or the house 00:41:00mothers to be at their Women's Council meetings. And this was a little hard for me to take, but I think it was a good step really for them. And I did meet with the house presidents and with the offices of women's council regularly, primarily to fill them in on some of the things that were happening on the campus so that they wouldn't be surprised--for instance, if Buildings and Grounds decided to paint the basement of Brown Hall and not let anybody over there know about it, which was one of the things that used to happen, or tear up dry wood, or do something like that. (chuckles)

DIEROLF: Reverse the traffic pattern in the circle. (all laughing)

NUGENT: I think, um, we all think of Cambodia and Kent State as one of our most 00:42:00traumatic times, and that was the semester that you were away. My major role was talking to state police and the Allentown police, communicating with the other Deans of Students' in the Lehigh Valley to find out what was happening on their campus, being available, being around. And, uh, I think that the way that this was handled really prevented anything very tragic happening here because there were opportunities for students to speak their minds, to be re--to have responses from administration from the president of the college.

I remember our being out by General Pete that night of the Cambodia Kent State situation. There was a student body meeting that night in which a roll call vote 00:43:00was taken about something that was proposed and uh, Mr. Gibbs was here, um, you were here, I'm sure Dave, Dave Simmonds was here, the president was here, I was here, and students were here. I think that we did avoid anything that was--would have been a real--would have created real damage for the college. I hope you take out some of these hesitations eventually. (all laughing) But, we did have two firebombs. Things kind of calmed down--

BREMER: But you don't know if those firebombs were Muhlenberg students either.

NUGENT: No, no.

BREMER: I think it was hard sometimes when there were destructive things happening to know were they Muhlenberg students, and I assumed quite frequently they were not.

NUGENT: That's true. I, uh, you can decide that. The one thing that I was a little tense about that night we were having the student body meeting was it had been decided that it would be for Muhlenberg students. And I was in the lobby of Seegers Union when I saw a group of students from Lafayette coming in with Lafayette written across their chests, and I immediately called (unintelligible) at home and had him talk with the leader of the group because we did not want other students from other colleges. And we were fortunate because there had been a plan to have a Lehigh Valley student demonstration, and it was presumably to be held over at Lehigh, and the day it was to be held, I heard that it was going to be moved to Muhlenberg College campus in Memorial Hall. We did a lot of work 00:45:00with Student Council at that point to try to have them discourage this because I think many of us felt that it could have been a real conflagration, if not actual fire in terms of damage and emotions at that point. And then, the faculty put together a panel of people from the colleges to talk to students about what had brought forth the whole Cambodia situation because many of the students didn't have a good background in the area, and I think that was helpful too. There was a lot of opportunities to talk out. Um...

DIEROLF: You know Anne one thing that could be kind of interesting to me, um, you worked under three different presidents.

NUGENT: Definitely.

DIEROLF: We all know how each president has a quite different style from his 00:46:00predecessor, and uh, would you like to say anything about, you know, your relationship with Dr. Seegers, Jensen, and Morey?

NUGENT: Well, I um, I had a lot of respect for Dr. Seegers, as well as a lot of affection for him. He is--he was one of the few men that I knew who had a great ability with the English language. He could express himself so clearly, choosing the right words all the time. It was a pleasure to listen to him.

BREMER: Oh, yes.

NUGENT: And, uh, see that's a gift that is not around too much anymore from my experience. He had a great sense of humor. I remember when I lived down at his 00:47:00house, they had a party down there, and he had made quite a batch of a particular drink that he used to make, and the party disintegrated. So, Marie (unintelligble) and Dorothy Seegers and Dr. Seegers and I sat down and finished up what was left. (all laughing) Mrs. Seegers did not (Anne laughs) because of health problems, and all, she just wasn't as interested. But, I only played bridge with them once. That was a rather traumatic experience (laughs) because Hazel was a teacher and J. Conrad remembered every card that anybody had played (chuckles) and in what order, which I did not. I was kind of a slapdash, intuitive player. My intuitions weren't always right.

I remember him as being a man I could always get to if I needed to...if he was on the campus or if he was at home. That's been my experience generally at Muhlenberg, that the presidents have been available to me, to students, and to faculty members. Not everybody knows this and not everybody takes advantage of it, but I think that's a good point for Muhlenberg. We were all sorry to see the Seegers go.

I remember one other thing about Amy Lou (??) and that was the farewell dinner that she did a large part of planning over in Memorial Hall, um , for the 00:49:00student body. And uh, I think Tom (??) was our Food Director at that time, and he helped out. But they were very pleased with that.

DIEROLF: It was a memorable evening. Yeah.

NUGENT: It certainly was. One of the few times that the whole student body, practically, has sat down to eat dinner. I think perhaps without a push from you, and me, and from Amy, it never would have happened.

BREMER: That was a farewell dinner for Dr. Seegers.

NUGENT: Mhm. I, I was a little awed by Dr. Jensen when he first came here. He has a sense of humor, but it's uh, it's not the same kind that Dr. Seegers had. 00:50:00He's a very forthright and upright kind of a man, but I discovered that he was approachable, that he was extremely honest. And I got to be extremely good friends with him because he, and his wife--you know, they just became my good friends. Ruth happens to be a member of PEO [Philanthropic Education Organization], which I'm a member of too and--

DIEROLF: Secret organization (unintelligible, all laughing)

NUGENT: Philanthropic Educational Organization (chuckles). And It's a great group.

I found him very direct. If he wasn't ready to give you an answer, he would tell you. He wouldn't, you know, just let you go hanging. If he was ready to give you an answer, he'd give it to you right away and ordinarily that was it. You didn't 00:51:00try to, to change his mind, at least immediately. I remember the long process of going through the alcohol policy, and we all know we had drinking in the residence halls, which was not supposed to be. And it must have been several years we put in listing council on changing the alcohol policy so that students might have alcoholic beverages in their rooms, that they might petition to have a public area in the residence halls for a party. And of course, we did impress on the fact that some, um, of the student body was not twenty-one, and they should be aware of that in terms of the parties that they have. Again, knowing Muhlenberg--question mark? (all laughing)

Dr. Morey, of course, I've known since he came here in--five years ago now.

BREMER: Right. Well, each of them has their own style of administration, which is quite different in his own way. You know when I think of the years you have been here Anne and the changes that have taken place at Muhlenberg, uh, how when I came--I came in '52. It was a small all-men's college, Conrad...an all-men's college--

NUGENT: Mhm. Of course, he had an advantage. He was a graduate. (all laugh)

BREMER: (laughing) That's right--he had sights that I didn't have. About 500 students. And then you think now, it's a coed school of about 1500 and how 00:53:00completely different it is. But the thing that stands out is as important changes, um, at Muhlenberg, during the time you've been here. I think the one thing that the increasing responsibility of the students we've had in self-government. And a rather significant role that, uh, they had in the affairs of the college and increasingly so. I think also of how the tremendous change that has taken place in the area of, well, liberalizing so many of the regulations concerning student conduct, student affairs.

You've spoken of the drinking policy. Actually, that turned out, I thought, to be rather smooth in a reasonable way. I thought there was a lot of fear and understanding, an attempt to understand part of the history by Dr. Jensen during those years. It never really (??) in the crisis.

NUGENT: No, no. It just, it was--

BREMER: (both talking) It was something that was worked out and evolved slowly between the administration and students primarily, and the faculty were involved, even the old student affairs community.

DIEROLF: David, I wonder if we should move, uh, to another area, since we're probably running out of tape. In the not too distant future, at least, we're running out of time, perhaps, for the library. We haven't talked about Anne's activity in the community, in the church. She's an active member in a number of areas, and, uh also professional close relations.

BREMER: Let's be certain that um--

DIEROLF: Go ahead.

BREMER: Well, uh, why don't you tell us a little bit about, you know, Presbyterian. We don't know very much about these Lutherans but uh--

NUGENT: Well, I--

DIEROLF: My mother was a Presbyterian. (all laughing)

NUGENT: Oh, really? Well, I must say that--not necessarily as a Presbyterian 00:55:00but--I really regretted the fact that we gave up the Chapel Assembly requirement for students.

BREMER: Here, here.

NUGENT: There were times when I went when I was bored, but there were many times, and the majority of times, when I went when I had some other kind of vision of things that were happening in the world or that people were thinking about that I would not have gotten otherwise. I think that this is a kind of a short-sighted gesture on the part of students and the faculty. Of course, there aren't very many faculty who come to the current informal or formal chapel programs. You see the same faces, and you see the same faces of the students too. I guess one of the first questions Dr. Seegers asked me was what church I 00:56:00was affiliated with, and I kind of said off the top of my head the Presbyterian. Then, I went to see Dr. Eastwood, and he welcomed me with open arms as he did everybody. And uh, I think he--well, I'm sure he would take in the worst sinner in the world. (laughing) And that was when First Pres was down in the current Allentown Art Museum. So I saw that set up down there and then saw the new building, which I was accepted into membership and, uh, saw the changes that happened with the art museum in the old Presbyterian church.

And I still had kept up my interest in nursery school children. I loved three 00:57:00year olds, and I'm a good--used to be a good nursery school teacher for three year olds particularly. They needed some help in the nursery at the--on Sunday at First Pres, and I was in charge of that nursery school for a number of years and enjoyed it. And, uh, had some children of our current faculty and staff in my group, who are now growing up, which is a little appalling. And then somehow I was asked if I'd be a deacon, and unfortunately, I said yes. I think that almost put me off religion and this a frightful thing to say because the good christians were among the most uncompromising and didactic and conservative 00:58:00souls I've ever tried to work with. So, I'd come home with frustrations from the deacon's meetings, but it was good experience for me. I learned a lot of things about the church that I hadn't known, learned a lot of people in the church that I would not have known otherwise. I think, maybe, the greatest contribution I made to the church was when Jerry Wert was interested in setting up a weekday preschool. And it took about five years for us to get that going, but I worked with him often on--in that period--in the planning of it, and interviewing people for the first staff, a number of whom are still there. It has become extremely successful. People fight to get their children (chuckling) into it these days. I feel like that, that was a contribution.

And then I was on the Board of Family and Children's Service of Lehigh County and that was very interesting because I learned a lot about Lehigh County and the city of Allentown. And I think I made some contributions to that group in board meetings and in committee meetings through the years, and I consider some of those people quite good friends. And I was active in the Pennsylvania Deans and the National Deans.

Break in the recording

BREMER: Do you remember what you said?

NUGENT: About the mini-skirt?

BREMER: Yes.

NUGENT: Yes. Well, I was saying that it was fortunate that I had been in London before mini-skirts hit the United States because I had seen them in Trafalgar Square, and I was a little bit appalled. But at least I was prepared for them when they hit Muhlenberg College campus and also the short-shorts.

DIEROLF: Well, I guess that we're getting to the end of the tape then. I'd like to say a couple of things. One, in getting around to meetings throughout the entire country, I was constantly impressed by the number of people that knew about you if they didn't actually know you and recognized that we were fortunate to have one of the leading women in the student personal business of the country at Muhlenberg. And I--although I knew that, it's always nice to hear it from someone on the outside. It's certainly a good thing for Muhlenberg to--that you were able to spend these years with us. More importantly, I think from my point of view, is--

Break in recording

DIEROLF: More importantly, I think from my point of view is the interest in (tape begins malfunctioning) the concern you had for individual students, and this was the center of (engineering??) what you were really about and what you were really doing. I know that, uh, whenever I wanted to know about a student, I came to you first because nine times out of ten or ninety-nine times out of a hundred, uh, you knew and were able to steer me straight. They've been some good years, and, um, it's been a great deal of fun to work with you.

BREMER: Anne, I should, I speak for all here who know you and worked with you to say that--

NUGENT: Both of you. (all laughing)

BREMER: All of us (laughing) say that we are going to miss you and we wish you well in the years ahead. We hope there will be a season when we'd all be 01:03:00together again. And thank you very much for this afternoon for coming and sharing your thoughts and memories, reflections at Muhlenberg with us. Thank you.

NUGENT: You're welcome. It's been a pleasure.

END OF INTERVIEW