00:00:00INTERVIEW WITH DJ LANDIS
JUNE 12, 2020
MARY FOLTZ: Well, good morning. My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with DJ to
talk about her life and experiences in LGBT organizations in the Lehigh Valley.
And this is a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Oral History Project. Our
project has funding from the Lehigh Valley Engaged Humanities Consortium, and we
are meeting on Zoom because we're in the middle of a pandemic. And today's date
is June 12, 2020. So first I just, DJ, I want to say thank you so much for doing
this interview with me today.
DONNA J LANDIS: You're welcome.
MF: And to start, could you please state your full name and spell it for me?
DL: My full name is D-O-N-N-A J Landis, L-A-N-D-I-S. But everybody calls me DJ
or Deej.
MF: Thank you. And will you please share your birth date?
DL: June 14, 1945.
00:01:00
MF: Thank you. And so prior to starting this interview we had talked about
consent. So I just want to check back in with you, do you consent to this
interview today?
DL: Yes.
MF: And do you consent to having this interview transcribed, digitized, and made
publicly available on online spaces?
DL: Sure, not a problem.
MF: And do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational
purposes in other formats, and that might be articles or websites or
presentations, things like that?
DL: Sure.
MF: And do you understand that you will have 30 days after the electronic
delivery of the transcript of this interview to identify parts that you want to
delete or withdraw from the project?
DL: Yeah, I understand.
MF: Great. All right, well, let's go ahead and get started. And I'm going to
start the interview by just asking you, could you tell me a little bit about
00:02:00your childhood?
DL: Well, I grew up in the coal regions, Shamokin, Pennsylvania, and I'll be
seventy-five years old on Sunday. And I was always a tom boy. My mother bought
me dolls, but they stayed in the box. I didn't play with dolls. I wanted guns
and all the boy's stuff, all the boy's toys. And I was just playing football,
baseball, I did all that stuff, and I had a lot of friends, and we just rode
around. It was all the good stuff. I was never a little girl playing girl stuff.
MF: What was it like to grow up in Shamokin? What was that region like?
DL: It was a cult where -- it's different now than it was back then. It was a
00:03:00nice town, friendly, and everybody knew everybody, and it was like you did
something wrong and you didn't have to worry about your parents not finding out
because somebody did. Everybody knew everybody, and your Oma's going to get you,
and you didn't have to worry about being safe because everybody watched out for everybody.
MF: Tell me a little bit about your family. Did your family work in coal mining
in Shamokin?
DL: My father was in the service, and he worked for the government down in
Middletown, Pennsylvania. He worked for the Army base down there, the military
base. My mother didn't work. So he basically [break in audio] And I was the only
00:04:00child. First though I guess I better tell you I was adopted. And I was adopted
at four hours old. And my biological mother and my adopted mother were best
friends. And my biological father and my adopted father were cousins. And that's
how it was. And I am actually related -- my aunt was married to a black man, and
I have, like, 17 biracial cousins. And I love them dearly. And I am not a racist.
MF: Tell me a little bit about sort of that extended family and your
00:05:00relationships with either your biological parents or your parents, parents who
adopted you.
DL: We were friendly at first, and then my biological mother and my adopted
mother, like I said, they were good friends, and they thought my adopted mother
couldn't have children. So what happened is when my biological mother gave birth
to me they adopted me, and then when my adopted mother ended up getting pregnant
there was a little bit of a rift there. So then I didn't have contact for many,
many years. And then with my biological father, I did have contact with him. But
00:06:00you know, back then when you were adopted it was always hush-hush, nobody talked
about it. And that's wrong because you should, you know, talk about it because I
actually grew up with a big chip on my shoulder because I only heard people talk
about, when they think I wasn't paying attention, about it. And that's not good.
I think it's great now how they have open adoptions where you talk about it and
all that. Because otherwise you're going to grow up like I did for until I was
in my twenties with a big chip on my shoulder. And I just never trusted people then.
MF: Could you say a little bit more like, why was there a chip on your shoulder?
What were your feelings about being adopted?
00:07:00
DL: I didn't understand. I didn't understand because I didn't know the story
back then. Nobody talked about it. And when you hear that nobody -- your mother
didn't want you, you know, people would say things and you didn't know why. And
so you didn't -- you hurt, but I never would cry. I just kept everything inside.
And it just hurt that, you know, you didn't know why you were adopted. And it's
wrong. I really believe you should talk about it when you're growing up. Don't
wait until you're in your teens and twenties to find out. Because I now, on my
mother's side, I have, like, seven or eight other siblings. And I only really
00:08:00bother with, know two of them. And on my father's side I know the three of them,
but we don't have no contact.
MF: Tell me a little bit about your relationships with your parents, the parents
that you lived with, your adopted parents. What was it like growing up in that
family? What were those familial relationships like?
DL: It was good. I mean, I was spoiled. I got everything I wanted. And but you
didn't hear the words love. You know, back then you didn't hear them words love.
But I was a spoiled brat. I mean, whatever I wanted I got. They bought me my
00:09:00first car and everything. They were good to me, but it was rough growing up
because when my adopted mother got pregnant and she lost the child, then she
started drinking. And then I used to get beatings and everything. And you know,
she would go out. Good thing she was a loud drunker, when they would come home,
her and her friends, because then they knew she was coming, and, like, she had
already locked me in a room, so she would go out because my father worked, and
the neighbor's would let me out so I could, you know. And then when they hear
her coming they put me back in the room and lock me back in. But it was rough
from the time I was, like, maybe eight until I was about eleven or twelve years old.
00:10:00
MF: I'm curious about, you know, you describe yourself as being a tom boy. So
you're kind of hurting in your family life, but it sounds like you had
relationships in the community with neighbors. What was it like to be a tom boy
in Shamokin when you were a young person?
DL: It was good. I started doing odd jobs at nine years old. We lived -- are you
there? We lived across from a grocery store. I would come home from lunch break
and deliver groceries for nickels and dimes, and I would save that because I
figured my own money, nobody could tell me how to spend it. And if I wanted
something I would just ask my mom because, like I said, I was spoiled. But it
00:11:00was great. I had a lot of friends, and I was sort of like -- my girlfriends that
couldn't protect herself, I was their protector. If they couldn't fight I would
fight for them. And I wasn't the type that would sit and play with dolls or play
girly girls. That wasn't me.
MF: What was school like for you in Shamokin?
DL: Oh, I liked school, and I didn't like school. I was a rebel, I guess. In
high school or grade school -- I loved grade school, was a block away. It was
when I got in high school I was a rebel. I would bag school, and just typical
00:12:00stuff. I was a rebel, I guess, because at our school back then girls couldn't
take shop, and I wanted shop. We had to take home ec. That was learn to cook and
sew and clean and all this for your husband and your future. Ugh. I didn't want
that. I wasn't to learn to work on my car and do other kind of jobs because I
had helped my dad put a motor in my car and all this. So I don't want home ec. I
flunked home ec.
MF: So I'm curious about your rebellious spirit. When you bagged school you said
we did typical things. What were the typical things you do when you snuck off
from school?
00:13:00
DL: Oh, we would go down to different places and go get hoagies and ride around
and go different towns and just do all that stuff. Of course you couldn't stay
around where you was at school so you wouldn't get caught. Or because you would
get detention. I had so much detention just from rebelling at home ec because I
wouldn't do the home ec stuff. I wanted shop because I couldn't understand. The
boys could take home ec. Why couldn't the girls take shop? And we had to wear
dresses to school even in the winter time. No long pants, dresses.
00:14:00
MF: What are some of your favorite memories from your youth?
DL: How my friends and I would, especially on Saturdays, do hiking. Pack a lunch
and go hiking and just walk around, different places and climb the coal banks.
Believe it or not we used to hop on a moving train and ride it for seven miles.
Then I walk back. On a Saturday there'd be coupons, they'd been on the Thursday
paper up there, our Thursday paper be all kind of coupons in there for grocery
stores, and the store across the street from our house would pay you whatever
the coupon was worth, ten cents, they give you have of it in cash.
00:15:00
So we would walk around a whole town and knock on doors and ask that we were
poor. We couldn't afford the paper. Could they give us the sports section with
the coupon? And I happened to knock on a door that they recognized my voice. The
husband didn't, but the wife said, "Donna Jean, is that you?" Because I would
say we're so poor. She said, "Does your mother know what you're doing?" Before I
got home my mom found out. Boy, did I get it when I got home saying I was poor.
Yeah, my dad was at work, and we didn't have a job, and I needed the coupons to
buy groceries. But we made, like, $15, $20 every weekend doing that until we got
caught. But I had a good childhood, lot of fun. I never stayed in the house, but
you knew when to be home. You didn't have to be told. You knew when the night
00:16:00lights come on, get home.
MF: It sounds like you and your friends were kind of outdoorsy, you know,
hopping on trains, going for hikes. Can you tell me a little bit about that
region of Shamokin for people who don't know what that kind of natural landscape
is? What was it like to be out hiking in those areas? Did you have favorite
spots to visit?
DL: We would go up the mountains. There was coal holes. You had to know where
the coal holes were because, you know, sometimes I would help pick coal for
people that couldn't afford to buy coal for their heat. So I would help pick
coal for them. And you had to know the difference between coal and slate.
Because slate wouldn't burn. And it was like, there was a lot of coal holes, lot
00:17:00of rocks. It's mountain area. It's nothing like it used to be. But it was
beautiful. You just had to know where to walk, and all over.
MF: So describe what happens for you after you leave school. What is sort of the
next step of your life after your adolescence?
DL: Okay, so after that, after I left school, I would hang out in the little
town called Kulpmont, which was like, six or eight miles -- four miles from
Shamokin and in Mount Carmel and party, drink, like teenager stuff. But our
00:18:00parties were different. We used to go up into the mountain, [inaudible] up in
the coal mountains, and we would stay up there and have our weekend parties and
not come down and cause trouble. And the cops knew we were up there, and they
were okay with it, long as we stayed up there and we didn't come down and cause
any trouble or anything else. We would have a party, and it would last the
weekend, and open the trunks of my car, and everybody had to put their keys in
my car, my trunk. So you couldn't get down. You had to stay up there, not cause
any trouble. And we built a pavilion that you would have, you know, you pay $10,
you drink all the weekend, you have food and everything else.
And we would drive to -- a bunch of us sometimes would go to Philadelphia
00:19:00because we had friends then that graduated and worked in Philly. At the time
they worked at, used to be Bell Tel. I don't know what it was called, but and
then from there we would meet there, go down there and spend a weekend and drive
up to New York. There was plenty of parties. You know, you had to in-know to
where the parties were. But that's how I got in to go the Village and The Stonewall.
MF: Tell me more about that. Were these parties -- were they coed parties? I
mean, going to Stonewall, of course, you're with LGBT people when you go into
New York to Stonewall. Tell me a little bit about the kind of makeup of your
friends and were you associating with LGBT people in Shamokin, or was that
00:20:00primarily in Philly and New York?
DL: No, that was in Shamokin. In Shamokin, in the town of Shamokin the gay bars
would be after 2:00. And you couldn't go earlier until after 2:00 in the
morning. And of course we were underage, but that was okay. They let you in. And
there was other clubs that you could go, like it was up in Berwick. It was
Berwick Hotel, when you were of age, but it was down in the basement. And the
first gay bar I went to was called the Lark. And it was -- the dance floor was
only about 12 by 12. That's how big it was. It was small. It was in the back
room of a bar. And there was another bar that we went outside of Sunbury, and
00:21:00you're dancing all, and I would say no clenching, no clenching. And then the
other bar, it was you would go Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday it was straight.
Thursday, Friday, and Saturday it was gay. So everybody knew that the town knew
which was which. So if you didn't want to be with the gays you didn't go. And
there was a lot of the women that would come that they were straight, but they
loved being around the gay people.
MF: When did you know you were gay, or when did you encounter gay community? You
talked about the first gay bar that you went to, but when did you know you were
a part of the gay community?
00:22:00
DL: I guess I always -- I just was different. There was only one guy I truly,
truly loved, but we couldn't be together because he was an Italian. And back
then you had to be Italian to be with Italian. His wife was already picked out.
But we remained friends. And I was married to a man. I got married at 19. I got
divorced at 19. And I came out at 19. And him and I are friends now. We're
better friends than we were married.
MF: So when you say you came out at 19, what do you mean by that? Do you mean
00:23:00that that's when you started going to the gay nights at the bars, or, you know,
what do you mean by --DL: Yup, yup. Like I said, I got married in 1964, and I
really came out, was 19, and I came out in '65. But I start going to the gay
bars before that, but I wasn't sure I was gay. I thought I was, but I wasn't
sure because I had feelings for this girl, but I wasn't, you know, didn't act
upon them or anything. I felt comfortable being around the gay people. And I
wasn't sure about anything. I was just, felt comfortable being around them, but
I didn't have gay feeling, you know, moved on them until I was 19 years old.
00:24:00
MF: So I'm curious about some of the bars that you describe, like the Lark and
other places. Could you describe what was a night out -- what did that look
like? What kind of music did they play? What were those bars like?
DL: Back then when you went to the gay bars the butch type girls would be
dressed more boyish, and their girlfriends would be -- you could tell the
difference. They would be dressed up nicely and, you know, like if they were
going on a date with a boy. But that's how they would be dressed, not like
they're dressed today. You would know a butch from a fem. And that's how you did
00:25:00it. And you went to the bars. You danced. You socialized and just like a couple.
MF: Was the gay community in Shamokin and those coal towns -- what was the size
of that community? Was it a small, insular community, or what was the size of it?
DL: Very small, people knew but they didn't say nothing, to your face anyway.
They might have said something behind your back. But when I came out at 19 I
never changed. It was like you accept me for who I am or you don't. It's your
loss. That was my attitude. And I mean, I never had a problem with, you know,
housing. My jobs, they knew I was gay at my jobs, and I never had a problem.
00:26:00Fact, one of the jobs I worked for -- I was the first female foreman building
RVs. And my two bosses were from Wyoming, and they knew I was gay, and we had a
couple other gay workers there. They wanted me to go to Wyoming with them, and I
said no, I wasn't going to go out that way. But I was who I was. I was upfront.
I was honest. I didn't pretend to go home to my boyfriend or husband or
whatever. I just, I was me, accept me how I am. And that's how I am to the day.
00:27:00
MF: So I have one more question about the bars. So I'm curious, you went into
Stonewall in the late '60s. What was that like, to go into New York City with
friends from Shamokin?
DL: We enjoyed it. It was wonderful. I mean, it was like wow, the Village, we
loved the Village. You can go on up there. We would go every time we could come
we would go up. It was just unbelievable the difference between little towns
where you had to wait to go to the bars and then go to New York where it was all
open. But it was bad. The night the Stonewall was raided I was supposed to be
there. But my gay friends, the males, they couldn't change their own tires or
00:28:00nothing, so I had to do that. And that's why we didn't go. And I'm glad we
didn't go.
MF: So I'm curious about that, like the openness that you see in New York City
versus living in a small town, did you want to continue to live in that kind of
small region, that Shamokin region? Did you ever considering going to New York
City, or did you really prefer the kind of small town atmosphere?
DL: I really loved Philadelphia. And I loved it. I wanted to go to Philadelphia,
and but then I was working. And I was accepted at -- I don't know if you
00:29:00remember the Philadelphia Warriors Roller Derby? I was accepted to go to the
school for Little Richard, but I couldn't afford to go to Philly and not work.
So I had to decline, but that broke my heart. I wanted to be a Philadelphia Warrior.
MF: I'm actually not familiar with the Philadelphia roller derby. Could you tell
me a little bit about what that was and what that league was?
DL: It was a sport, roller derby, like, they have the different teams all over
from New York and Chicago and all that where they would skate against one
another. And I loved it. It was a rough game, but I loved it. It was popular
00:30:00back in the '60s and the -- well, not the '60s but the '70s and the '80s I guess
it was. It was Buddy Atkinson, Little Richard, Judy Arnold. The older people
would know it. The younger girls won't know it. They still have some now, but
it's not like it was.
MF: So you're working up in the kind of Shamokin region. Can you tell me a
little bit about the jobs that you held during this time period? Is this the
early '70s that we're talking about?
DL: Yeah. I tried sewing. Like I said, I hated home ec. I tried that. I quit the
job. I worked one day, and I didn't know. I sewed everything together. I didn't
00:31:00know that. I flunked that. But I worked building RVs. Pace Arrow I was called.
You get a chassis and then you built the camper on the chassis. All you got was
a chassis and you had to build everything on the chassis. And it was a joke at
first when they first came out because if you were in an accident you didn't
call [the body a fender?] you called a carpenter because they were made out of
wood. They were top heavy. You couldn't drive if it was real windy on an
interstate. You better be afraid, topped over.
MF: And how long did you work on building RVs? How long were you at that job?
DL: I only worked there three years, and they laid me off. They were kind
00:32:00because my mother had cancer, had facial cancer, so they left me collect
unemployment to take care of her.
MF: Tell me a little bit more about taking care of your mother?
DL: She had had it in her face where soon as it would hit a different spot she
would hemorrhage. And we took her to, I think it was called Saint Vincent's
Hospital in New York. And there was nothing they could do. It was too far gone
because she had it when she was a child at eight or nine years old, and then it
came back. And that was in '75 right after my father passed away. But between
00:33:00that, in '65 I moved to Allentown.
MF: So describe that a bit more for me. Were you living in Allentown and then
driving back to care for your mother or --?
DL: No, I moved to Allentown, and in '65 I came out, separated from my husband
in February. March I moved to Allentown. I had my divorce in April. And in May I
met Sandy, the state hospital in 1965 in May. And her and I went together for
almost three years. But by that time I was wild. Nobody was going to tell me
anything. I wasn't nice to her. I was really -- wasn't very nice. Like I said, I
00:34:00had a chip on my shoulder. And it was I did what I want when I wanted to and
nobody was going to tell me anything different. And then we split. I met a wrong
person that was a mistake in my life. And then I moved back home, and my father
died. He died of an aneurysm. And then he died in '74, and my mom had the cancer
in '75. And she died in '77. They only gave her six months, but she lived two
years and two months.
MF: Well, I know Sandy is an important person in your life, so could you tell me
00:35:00how you met her at state hospital? How did you two meet?
DL: She was my boss. I went to work on WD, which was a unit down there, and she
was my boss. And when I told her stories she'll say what the hell are you
talking about? I'm still your boss. So but we split for almost 30 years, and
we're back together now. In February we were together 26 years. Like I said,
when Sandy and I split I met this woman, and I just believed everything she told
me because at that time I was still not trusting people. And I still had the
chip on my shoulder and everything. And in between time I ran in -- Sandy and I
00:36:00met in between. And I asked Sandy to take me back, and she laughed. When Sandy's
nervous she laughs. So I thought oh well.
The first person I ever had any relationship was a married woman in Shamokin.
And she used me. And oh well, you learn from the heart -- you know, you learn
from that. But out of that relationship she had, and I loved the children. And I
loved her until after a while, but she had grandchildren, and I loved the
grandchildren, everything, but you know, when she passed it was like I had to
pay a 15 percent inheritance tax and everything. And we were together like 20
00:37:00years. So it wasn't that I would go to the bars and hook up with different
people at the bars. I never did that. I was like, I always had somebody in my life.
MF: So the relationship after Sandy, the one that was 20 years, can you tell me
a little bit about how you met each other, how that relationship started?
DL: She was my neighbor. She was neighbor, and it just happened one night that
she kissed me, and I thought oh, this is pretty nice. But it was rough because
she was married, and she was still with her husband. And it was like, ugh, I
can't do this. So then that's before I came down to Allentown and meet Sandy.
00:38:00That was before I met Sandy. And then after Sandy and I split I was with this
girl for a couple years, and I was like, nah, I don't want someone that's going
to run around on me and cheat on me. So then I ended up back with the first
person I ever had kissed.
MF: And did she move to Allentown to be with you, or did you sort of move back
to --
DL: That's when I moved back to Shamokin. But she did help take care. And that's
one of the reasons I [inaudible]. She helped take care of my mom with me. She
was there with me to help take care of my mom.
MF: Did the two of you live together with her children in Shamokin?
DL: Yes.
MF: And so can you describe a little bit what that was like, to be a same-sex
00:39:00couple living together in Shamokin?
DL: It wasn't too bad. I guess it was harder on the oldest child because his
friends used to make fun of him. And I was friends with her husband too. So it
was like, you know, we were all friends. When he got sick I helped take care of
him. I would go up and make sure he got all his medicines and everything, and it
was, you know, we all got along. Like I said, it's like I'm who I am, you accept
me, and that's how it is. She didn't bash the husband, and he didn't bash the
wife. You know, it was like, we just talked, you know. If he needed something to
00:40:00drive, I would drive him and his girlfriend places, and, you know, he had a
girlfriend, and he just drank a lot.
MF: You describe after your partner passed having these sort of property taxes,
and a lot of younger people won't understand why. So I'm wondering if you could
explain a little bit about pre-marriage equality what it was like for gay people
to own property together or to, you know, to live together and then have that
relationship not be recognized by the state or the government. So could you
describe a little bit about what that was like to kind of live together and own
00:41:00property together, et cetera?
DL: It was like you were strangers living together even though you were couples.
It wasn't recognized as a couple. You were just like strangers living together
even though you had property and it was in both names. You had to pay like that,
when she passed me on the house, and I had to pay 15 percent income tax,
inheritance tax on half the property because both our names was on it. But we
weren't recognized as a couple. And so everything was 15 percent, and even to
today, if you're not legally married in Pennsylvania or any state you have to
pay 15 percent tax. It's not like you get away with it. If you're married you
00:42:00only pay nothing really or six percent. But back then it was, you know, being
legally married wasn't up until what, about few years ago? I don't remember. I
remember fighting for legal marriage with Trish and all of them. But back then
it was rough. You had every -- you filed income tax. You had to file it
separately. You couldn't file jointly. Even though you supported them you
couldn't claim them.
MF: [inaudible] some of your favorite memories from that partnership, that 20
years together?
00:43:00
DL: I would say the birth of the first grandchild. I love him dearly. He was my
favorite. I have to say he was my favorite. But there was, you know, the proms,
the weddings, the graduations, typical all, like, if you were a married couple,
the typical thing of what goes on with their kids, their dates, their broken
hearts and just the typical things of what a married couple would do if they had
children, the ups and downs, the fighting. But it was -- I can't say it was bad.
It was good times, a lot of good times.
00:44:00
MF: You're really talking about the beauty of that extended family, the children
and the grandchildren. Could you talk a bit about how her extended family and
how your extended family accepted you or didn't accept you as really a marriage
relationship? How did your families respond to your relationship?
DL: It was okay. I didn't have a problem. The kids called me Aunt. And everybody
accepted -- like I said, when you're in Shamokin it was like everybody was
family anyway. My aunt, you called my aunt Aunt. I called her family Aunt or
Uncle, and it was accepted. It was everybody knew everybody. Like I said, it was
00:45:00like everybody knew everybody so it was like you're aunt or uncle to everybody almost.
MF: So during this 20-year period are you working at this time, or what is happening?
DL: Yeah.
MF: Tell me a little bit about where you were working and what kinds of jobs you had.
DL: Well, I was working at Pace Arrow, and then that -- like I said, my mother
got cancer. Then after that I went to work at, I can't remember the name of it,
but it was a fabric place, and I was what they called an assorter. And it was in
a sewing factory, but I didn't sew. We got material from a plant or from
00:46:00wherever it came from, and we assorted it into bundles, and it went to the
sewers. And I had a partner, and they all knew I was gay too. I mean, like I
said, Shamokin was a small town. And you know, all the towns up there, you know
people from working around, and basically I didn't have -- like, I never had a
problem because I was up front with people. I was honest. They knew who I was. I
wasn't pretending to be.
I think when you pretend to be something you're not and you lie about it people
tend to rather be, in my opinion anyway, rather you being honest and be up front
about something than oh, I'm going home to my boyfriend or my husband and that's
not true. And I mean, I was, like I said, a rebel. I have tattoos. I have, like,
00:47:00maybe 10 of them. I got them when I was, you know, when my mom said don't dare,
and that was, oh, don't say that to me. But I got them. I had a woman's name
tattooed on my arm. So you know, what am I doing?
MF: You early talked about the kind of butch-fem emphasis in the bar culture,
and I'm wondering, how did you feel about kind of butch-fem in the bar culture
or in the larger sort of gay community?
DL: How do I feel about it?
MF: Yeah, were you a part of butch-fem culture, or were you sort of outside of that?
DL: I guess I was part of it. I always dressed that way, so it was nothing new
00:48:00to me. My hair's longer now than it has been in years because I can't get a
haircut, but it was -- I didn't wear fem clothes. In fact, when I worked -- and
this is funny, but it's a true story. When I was building RVs my niece was
getting -- she always says she was my niece, was getting married, and I said I
had to go get a dress for the wedding. And my boss said to me if you're going to
get a dress I want a picture of it, and I'll pay you for working. So I went. I
didn't get the dress, but I put my partner's dress on, made her take the
picture, and I showed it to my boss, and I got paid for the day. I didn't own
dresses. I still don't own dresses. The last dress I wore was I think in '63 or
00:49:00'62 when my cousin got married.
MF: So did you have relationships with other butch women? And if so did you talk
a little bit about being butch or what it was like to be butch during that time period?
DL: Yeah, there was a lot of us that was there. We all dressed the same. And you
just knew. And I'm proud of myself. I can always -- and I guess that's one thing
that they knew. I never crossed the line of a friend. If a friend was involved
with somebody I would -- I guess you would say put the make on them. I never did
that to a friend. A friend's a friend. I would never cross that line.
00:50:00
MF: So I'm curious about [break in audio]. I'm curious about your tattoos
because you brought them up. You said you have a woman's name tattooed on your
arm. You've got 10 tattoos.
DL: Yeah.
MF: Tell me a little bit about your tattoos.
DL: Well, our neighbor's son was doing tattoos. And he needed people to practice
on. So I said sure. My mom said don't you dare. Wrong thing to say to me, don't.
And I got it. It's a big thing with flowers and double hearts and a blue bird
and all that. I have a black rose. I have an eagle tattoo. I have a dream
00:51:00catcher tattoo on my other shoulder. On my back I have a yin-yang. On the other
side I have a Pegasus on the other with the rainbow. On my leg Sandy's songives
tattoos out in Minnesota, but this was in California. When Sandy and I had our
holy union, Mark and Michelle came, that's his wife, but he's remarried now. I
have a cherub on my leg with double hearts. The cherub represents the
grandchildren, and the double hearts is Sandy and I. I've got hot stuff devil,
so. And then I've just got the last tattoo I got from Mark was a ribbon because
Sandy had lung cancer. And I have it white with her name on it and my color as a
00:52:00care taker and the date when she had her lung cancer. So that's my tattoos.
MF: They look beautiful. The one on your shoulder looks amazing, but I could see
that one a little bit more. Oh, that's so cool. So you describe -- this partner
had an untimely death from the 20-year relationship. What happened at that
period? You know, tell me a little bit about what happened around that time?
DL: Well, she had breathing problems. You know, we all smoked back then.
Everybody smoked. And she had asthma. And she had it for many, many, many years.
00:53:00And like I said, we grew up on that street, so I know her for, you know, from
when her firstborn -- and it just was getting worse and worse and worse. And her
oldest son and I took her to Hershey Medical. And he gave her only six months to
live because her lungs -- her one lung collapsed. But she didn't know it. She
didn't want to know. So, you know, we didn't tell her. And a few months later
she was rushed to the hospital, and this doctor came in and told her -- she
asked did she have cancer? He said no, but you're dying anyway.
So she just gave up. So she died November 11, I think it was, in '93. And she
00:54:00made me promise to call Sandy and tell Sandy because she said you always loved
Sandy. You never gave up. You never stopped loving Sandy. You would never let
anybody say anything bad about Sandy. So I called Sandy, and I was just happy
that we were going to be friends for the way I treated her. Because I was nasty
to Sandy.
Like I said, the chip on my shoulder wasn't good. And because Sandy has two
boys. But anyway, I called Sandy, and she invited me down for around Christmas
time. I came down. And I thought we would just be friends, but we ended up
getting back together. And I love her dearly. She's the best thing to happen to
me. And we talk now, which we didn't before, because, you know, we were both 19
years old, and I come from a small town in Shamokin into a big city, and nobody
00:55:00was telling me what to do. I regret how I treated her. I regret that every day
of my life.
MF: So when you came down from Shamokin to Allentown to visit Sandy, tell me a
little bit about, like, how you got back together. How did you make that
transition from friends or potential friendship back to partners?
DL: Well, we always stayed in contact, but my former partner used to talk more
to Sandy than I did. Sandy and I would say hi, how are you? Okay, yeah, me too,
blah, blah, blah. But her, my former partner and Sandy would talk more than I.
And we would even come down and visit. Because see, I had people from Shamokin
moved down here, and that's when I moved to Allentown. I stayed with people from
Shamokin that was family friend from family like grandfather lived with them,
00:56:00you know. And so I lived with them when I came down here until I got my
apartment across the street from them. And then when Meg passed I come down. I
called Sandy, and she invited me down. And it was a little strange at first, but
then I kept coming down. She invited me down, and we got back together.
MF: So when you got back together did you move to Allentown then, or where were
you living at that time?
DL: I still had my home in Shamokin, but I would come down every couple weeks,
and I knew I was going to move. I didn't know where I was going to move. This is
before Sandy and I got back. I knew I was leaving Shamokin. I just couldn't
handle Shamokin anymore. Because there was -- some of my former partner's
00:57:00children and I didn't get along after, you know, because I felt they could have
done more than they did for their mother instead of just stop in five minutes
and say hi, how are you. And I felt they could have came because it was like
24-7 I was there. I could have needed a break. When you take care of somebody
you could use a break. But I didn't get that. I mean, I went to the store, and I
had to be back, pay bills and everything, and be back in a half an hour. And it
was like, they said oh, I should have done more. I said yeah, you should have
done more. You could have done more. And it was like I paid for everything.
The only thing they paid for is their own flowers. But I paid for everything.
00:58:00And the one thought I should just turn over the house to them. And I didn't. I
sold it. And I gave the oldest grandson a nice amount of money. A thousand
dollars I gave him. But then you have to -- I only sold the house 20,000. It was
a house, a storefront and an apartment. Down here I could have got like
$150,000. I just wanted out of Shamokin. I didn't care. I just was at the point
where it was getting nasty. So I just wanted out away from all the trouble. It
was like, I don't need any more problems. It's, you know, you can all be on your
00:59:00own now. You're not young children. You're all married. You all have children.
You can be on your own. And, you know, because I didn't sign the house over to
the one it was a big upset. And it's -- I just felt I could not live in Shamokin
and be happy.
So I knew I was going -- this was in November I knew. And I just knew I was
getting out of Shamokin one way or another. And I just had to get out. And then
I stayed with friends. And I came back and forth to Allentown with friends, and
then in March I moved down here, March of '94. And I just went back and forth
until I sold the house. I mean, anything I needed done I had to pay for up
there. They didn't help. Everything I needed done it was I had to go up, cut the
01:00:00grass, trim the hedges. Nobody did it for nothing. It was always about money.
MF: So you moved to Allentown in March of, I think you said 1994. Tell me a
little bit about the neighborhood that you lived in Allentown. Like, what was it
like to move to Allentown in the 1990s?
DL: Where we're at now, we're in the same house. We're in the same house,
Sandy's house, and neighborhood's fine. They all know, and we get along.
Actually, Sandy works at the state hospital forty-one and a half years. And her
parents love me. And actually in 2001 I changed my name to Landis. That's
01:01:00Sandy's name. My name was Golda. When I met Liz and Trish I was Golda, my
married name. And in 2001 when I changed my name Sandy's parents, her mom
especially really loved it, that I became a Landis. And we're still in the same
house, twenty-sixyears still in the same house. And the neighbors, I have no
problem with them. I watch every -- I know everything that's going on in the
neighborhood. I watch. I know new cars and old cars and what belongs here and
doesn't belong here.
MF: So it sounds like -- did you move in with Sandy, or did you -- when you
01:02:00moved back to Allentown in March, did the two of you moved in together then?
DL: Sandy already had this house. Sandy already bought the house. She moved
here. She's living here now in June will be twenty-seven years. So she had the
house six months before I came down. I taught Sandy how to drive.
MF: Tell me that story. How'd you teach her to drive?
DL: We got in trouble because I taught her how to drive on state property. But I
thought it was safe. That's better than out on the road. But I taught her how to
drive, and yeah, but we got in trouble for it.
MF: How did you get in trouble?
DL: Because of her driving on the state property without a license.
01:03:00
MF: So when you moved to Allentown, you move in with Sandy in March, tell me a
little bit about what else was happening in your life in 1994 in Allentown.
DL: Well, I was trying to sell my property up there. I mean, what I did, I
rented it to sell for a year. I went to my very first pride fest. The year
before I heard about it. I read about it on TV. But I went to my first pride
fest. I called Liz and Trish. And I called Mickey Katz. I don't know if you know
Mickey Katz. And I talked to them. And I started volunteering. I went over, and
01:04:00I met Liz and Trish. And I start volunteering. I just thought it was wonderful
that they had something like that for gay people. And I volunteered for our
pride fest. I went to Harrisburg's for their pride fest. And I went to Philly
for their pride fest and worked them.
MF: What did it feel like for you to be at that first pride festival in Allentown?
DL: It was wonderful. And it, you know, all this and, you know, no problems. It
was different back, you know. This was wonderful. They had something for gay
people that I never knew they had. Well, the very first gay pride down here was
in '93, I think they started it. And then I ended up going being on the pride
board for a couple years. But it was wonderful. I just totally enjoyed it.
01:05:00
MF: When you volunteered at the different pride festivals, what did you do? Were
you setting up booths? What was your volunteering --
DL: Well, in Philadelphia I worked the beer booth because Allentown didn't have
a beer booth. And it was funny. The second time we did that -- I did that for a
couple years. Sandy went with me, and it was I was doing the beer, and she
thought oh, I couldn't handle it. She couldn't. So she did the vodka, the
Absolut vodka. And when it first opened she said oh, I can handle this only one.
She gave them the first vodka, and she turned around, and she said where the
hell did they all come from? But yeah, we did work the booths. We went and
helped. We did the same thing in Harrisburg. In Harrisburg I got them to come up
01:06:00and help up here on Pride with us, and then in return I went down and helped
with them. And I helped with Philly.
MF: Tell me a little bit about the Pride board. What was it like to be on that
board? How did the board operate? What was it like to try and set up the pride
festival here?
DL: Back when I was on it was different than what it is now. It was like you
send out, get in touch with vendors, and I was helping with the setting up,
marking off the field where the booths would go and all this. And then I would
stay overnight and sit overnight so they wouldn't vandalize the vending places
until we set up. And then we would work it, work the booths, and do that. And
like, back then we didn't charge to get in. And then we -- I was part of the
01:07:00very first parade with them, Hamilton Street into Pride.
You didn't realize how expensive it was for the police to block off the streets
for to have the parade come down the streets. That was, I think, the only parade
that we had. We had music and everything else. It was great. I thoroughly
enjoyed it. Like I said, ours never had alcohol. And I'm not sure if I like the
idea of, you know, charging people, but you know, that's only my opinion. I'm
01:08:00not sure what -- then we had the protestors. Then I was a silent witness for the
protestors. And we had it down in Harrisburg. Yeah. It was rough at first.
MF: Tell me a little bit about, so you say it was rough at first. Tell me why.
How many protestors came out? What was happening with the protesting of Pride?
DL: The screaming and the yelling, and you know, it was like why couldn't you
just let us be instead of protesting? We're not hurting nobody. You know, and
God doesn't say nothing about us. You know, it's you love who you love. It
01:09:00doesn't matter what sex you are or what race you are. Love is love. I'm sure,
you know, God didn't put us on this earth to say you have to love this person.
You have to love that person. The main thing is He don't want us to hate. And to
me the protestors was just about hate.
MF: Were there a lot of protestors at the first Pride?
DL: No, actually that wasn't our first Pride. I guess it was couple years later
that the protestors came. And the first ones maybe if they were there they were
across the street. You didn't even have any, you know -- it was when that, I
guess it's what was his name, Philips or something like that. He started the big
01:10:00mouth stuff. The others one were just, you know, so-so. They were against it,
but you didn't have it until he came with his big mouth.
MF: What was it like to be a silent witness? Can you tell me what that is and
what it felt like to be a silent witness?
DL: What it was is you just stood there, and you kept your mouth shut. And that
was hard for me. And you just didn't let them get to the people that was walking
in to the Pride Fest. You stood there and just stood there quietly, and no
matter what they said to you you ignored them. But you blocked them from
getting people, you know, getting in the other gay people's face. You were like
01:11:00a bridge between them. I don't know if they still have them or not.
MF: Can you tell me -- you said at one point it was that the parade was so
expensive because you had to block off the streets. When you were on the board,
how were you funding the pride festivals? Did you have donors? How did you raise
that money to make that happen for the --DL: Well, you know, when you were sold
a spot, depending on the space you bought, you rented it, you paid for it, and
that's how we got money. And then we had different, you know, depending on your
size of the spot you wanted and where you wanted it costs the money. And that's
01:12:00how you made money. And you know, you sold stuff, but I don't know if we had
sponsors or not. We might have. I think we had a lot of donations. Like we put
the fliers out. They were donated by different people. And people that -- like a
flier, people rented space to put in the, you know, paid for an ad to put in the advertising.
MF: So you're working on the Pride board in Allentown. What other LGBT
organizations were you involved with in Allentown during this period of the '90s?
01:13:00
DL: There was one called Kindred Spirits, [GLOR?], and with Liz and Trish it was
a different name back then. It was PA- Gala. And I can't think of the other
ones, but it was different, quite a few. I tried to help with every one I could.
MF: Yeah, Liz and Trish describe you as, like, a volunteer all over the valley,
that you were just sort of like, just helping in any way you can. I'm not
familiar with Kindred Spirit. Could you talk a little bit about what that was
and how you worked with that organization?
01:14:00
DL: It was like a get together. You would meet if you had to talk. Most of them
was like, didn't have a partner at the time, but I did. And it was like we meet
at -- we used to meet at Unitarian church at Center City in Bethlehem at Center
Street and talk, say, about like -- it was like socializing gathering to talk
about your feelings and what happened and all this. And then we would leave
there for about an hour or so, and then we would go to Diamonz or something
before the charge, get in. We would go there and just drink, dance, shoot pool.
01:15:00We would meet every -- I think it was a Friday. I believe it was a Friday. And
the other, GLOR was male and females. Kindred Spirit was mostly all female. GLOR
was a mixture. It was, I think it cost you like $10 a year to join. And it was
like different people had something at their house every weekend.
Somebody else had something or every month somebody would have something. And it
was like you get together, potlucks, and stuff like that. And it was like maybe
go hiking. They get together to go hiking or down to Longwood Gardens, who
01:16:00wanted to go, or go golfing or something like that but in a group. And I don't
know if it's still going on or not, but it sort of phased out after a few years.
I guess we all got older. I know at first they used to think I made Sandy up
because she was always working. But she worked second shift at the state
hospital, you know. But it was funny. So we had a event at our house, and then
at first they said I paid her, somebody to do it until at last a couple came
later, stayed later, and then they realized I had to ask her where stuff was
because she knew and I didn't know. But yeah, it was funny.
MF: Were you involved with any religious organizations during this time period
like MCCLV?
DL: Yes.
MF: Tell me about --
DL: I belonged to [inaudible].
01:17:00
MF: Tell me about your involvement with MCCLV.
DL: I went there. I was at a birthday party, and this friend of mine was there,
and she was leaving to go to church. It was at Sunday night at 6:00 or for first
six. And I said can I come with you? She said sure. And I went. They were in --
sharing a church, Unitarian church in Bethlehem. And I enjoyed it. And that's
the first I went to church down here with MCC. I was a member. I belonged there
17 years. I was on the board. I was on the property board for six years. And I
helped move with the church and all of that. There's where I fell. We moved from
Ford Street. Was it Ford Street? From Merchant Square. We were at Merchant
01:18:00Square on Vultee Street. We moved from there to Ford Street in Allentown. And I
was working at the church, and I fell 15 feet and broke my leg. But yeah, I
belonged to MCC for 17 years. And now I belong to St. Mark's, Lutheran church.
MF: And when you first started going to MCCLV, could you describe how it felt to
be a part of a church community that's primarily LGBT?
DL: I thought it was wonderful. It was really, really nice. I thought it was
great. And lot of the people that I knew from Kindred Spirits and that went
01:19:00there. But yeah, I was on their board for six boards. I was property chair for
six years. I really enjoyed MCC. But then, you know, time comes where you move on.
MF: Can you describe why you decided to move on and a little bit about that kind
of religious journey to a different church?
DL: Oh, how can I say it nicely? I just felt maybe different. I felt differently
about things that the church -- I just felt I know who I am. I know who I was
01:20:00since I'm 19 years old. And it's not all about just the gays. There's other
people, just because they're not gay, that don't mean that you can't be friends
with. And it's just time to move on. I just felt it wasn't the same as I was
first in love with the church. Things, personalities changed. People changed.
And speaking, I just felt when I -- you know, you ask me a question, I'm going
to speak my mind. And you don't like it, and friendships change. I'm trying to
01:21:00be very polite and not say nothing but being honest. And it felt time for a change.
MF: So how did you find your new church? And what has that experience been like
for you?
DL: Well, friends of ours that went to MCC, she was a secretary at St. Mark's.
And they got tickets for Elvis impersonator, and they know I liked Elvis. And
she called me up and said come and meet them. You know, come. So we went there,
and there was people there that Sandy worked with at the hospital and kept
saying join, come join this called Sharing Life. You'll love it. So we ran into
01:22:00-- so we did. Sandy went, and I went in November. So we seen the Elvis
impersonator. So we went to the Sharing Life, and what that is is it's people
from the church that have this deal with mentally ill. And the nurses and all
that from the state hospital where Sandy worked started this. And what it is is
different patients from the -- they don't call them patients now. They're
clients or started this where once a month the beginning of the month they had
crafts. So many people come for crafts.
On the third Wednesday of the month they come, we give them something to eat,
and we have bingo or a dance or something like that. And we enjoyed that. And
01:23:00the people was so accepting of Sandy and I being gay that they were so
wonderful. And I said to Sandy, eh. This was in November, and I said that
February was our anniversary. I said let's go to church. I'd like to see this
church. Because the church was beautiful. And we went in, and the people were so
accepting. It was like -- it was great. And I remember the sermon. The pastor
said we're here for the people, not for the church. And I said, I like that. So
then we went a couple times, and then we missed for two weeks because we went on vacation.
And when we came back everybody said oh my God, you're here. You're here. We
01:24:00thought you didn't like us and that you weren't coming back. So we are now
members of the church. I'm on the church counsel. I love the church, and I love
their outreach. We do a pantry, open-door pantry. Twice a month we give people
food that's in our zip code because there's so many we can't do it all. Because
ours is a food pantry where they pick what they want except for now with this
virus going on they tell us what they want and we fill the bag. Because we give
them meat, sometimes eggs, milk, cheese. So it's not like where we fill a bag
and just hand it to them. They pick what they want. I just love their
outreaches, and I love the church and the people. It's the people. They love you
for who you are.
01:25:00
MF: You really have so many stories about volunteering or being on leadership,
both in LGBT organizations but in your church organizations both at MCCLV and
now with your Lutheran congregation. Could you tell me a little bit about why
volunteering and taking on leadership roles in community organizations has been
important in your life?
DL: Well actually, they asked me to become one of the leaders. They asked me. I
was just a member over a year, and they called and asked me to be on their
board. And I was honored. I said I'm not even a member only a little over a year
and you're asking me to be on your board. I was honored that they asked, you
know. So that's how it is. They asked me. And I'm honored. And I told them right
01:26:00from the beginning my mouth sometimes got me in trouble. And they were happy.
Because I speak my mind, and that's where it got me in trouble at MCC. You ask
me a question and I'm going to answer it, and if I feel something's wrong I'm
going to speak my mind, and that's what happened.
MF: I'm wondering if we could talk a little bit about just kind of to turn back
to you and Sandy, did you have a commitment ceremony or, you know, something
prior to the passage of marriage equality?
01:27:00
DL: Yes, we had a holy union back in 1998 at the Unitarian church where we had
that. My family from Delaware all came. They all love Sandy. And it's like you
can't accept Sandy. And before my biological mother died we mend the fences,
and, you know, I said this is my partner, and if you can't accept her you're
history. You're not as important to me as she is. And that's how it is. They
can't accept Sandy then we're history. And in 2001 we had, in Connecticut, we
had a civil union. We can't get legally married in Pennsylvania because I would
lose my benefits. That's why we -- not legally married in Pennsylvania or we
01:28:00would be because I'm a fixed, very low. Like, I only get $1,000 to live on. And
my medicine, because I have COPD, two of my inhalers are over $1,000.
MF: Can you describe the civil union ceremony for me? What was that like?
DL: Well, our holy union at the Unitarian, both Sandy's sons walked her down the
aisle. And the pastor, I forget her name, but we have her pictures and
everything, she married us. But it was great seeing her walking down the aisle
with both her sons there. And her one son calls me Mom Number Two. But he's more
01:29:00laid back. The older son is -- he lived in California, so you can tell how laid
back he is compared to the other son, but we get along good.
MF: So now in your seventies, how would you describe your relationship with
Sandy now that you've been together for so many years and you're in your
seventies, you're kind of in this, like, really beautiful part of your
relationship because you've been together so long. Describe that for me.
DL: I still love her with all my heart. And we talk, which we never did in the
beginning back in the '60s. We didn't talk. We talk. We're honest with one
01:30:00another. And like, she'll say how are -- like if I'm not feeling good I'll say
I'm good. She'll say honest? And if I'm not feeling -- I won't say honest unless
I mean it. But we talk. We don't just do something. No matter what it is we talk
about, give each other's opinion on everything. We trust one another. We don't
hang in bars. We're home, basically home bodies. We like to travel. But with
this going on we're not planning no vacations. We already canceled our vacations
for this year. But next year we're planning to drive to Minnesota to see her
oldest son Mark. Michael lives down in Phoenixville, but with this going on we
01:31:00don't go to see him either. But it's still wonderful. We talk. We don't leave
the house without kissing each other goodbye and saying we love each other. We
never go to bed without kissing and saying goodnight and love each other. We
never do that. And it's great. We laugh. We watch TV. We read. Right now I'm
working on a puzzle, and she'll help me pick out pieces. But it's wonderful
because we might disagree. We still say thank you, please. We treat each other
with respect.
MF: Well, we're getting close to the end of the interview. So I want to ask just
maybe one or two more questions. In your seventies, as you look back on your
01:32:00experiences and really the kind of LGBT movements from the '69 and Stonewall,
you know, through the present, how do you think things have changed for LGBT
people? What have you sort of witnessed across your life?
DL: Well, I don't remember the movie, but they showed a movie at NCCC one time.
And I was there helping one of the groups out. And the younger people that was
younger than me were in there that didn't come out as early as I came out. And
when they came out, and they kept thanking me. And it's like, for what, you
know? I don't consider myself a hero or warrior or nothing else. I'm just me,
01:33:00plain old me. And it's a lot different. Now I see people walking hand in hand,
you know, couples, and I think wow, what a difference, what a difference.
They didn't realize what it was like to go to a bar after 2:00 in the morning to
be with yourself and friends. And I got a nickname called Bobbie because I was,
like I said, I was butchy, and this drag queen thought I was a guy. And I told
him no. He said from now on you're Bobbie to me. And so I did a couple drag
shows at the church, and I went by Bobbie. But it's so different. And they don't
realize how lucky they are that they can walk down the street hand in hand and
01:34:00not get bashed or beat up or anything because a lot of that was going on. We
fought for a lot of this. I remember so many years standing on Hamilton Street
fighting for gay marriage in the freezing cold.
But most of the people, I can only say I think only twice I ever had something
thrown at me during that time. Most of the people past and honked their horns.
But there was other places where there was bashing, like with Mathew Shepard and
a couple others. You know, the movement back then was very different. You had to
be really close and, you know, different now. They're lucky. Things has changed,
and they're lucky to have it changed. Some people lost their jobs. Some people
01:35:00lost their homes. Some families put them out. My family stuck by me. Sandy's
family stuck by her. But we were lucky. But some wasn't as lucky.
MF: Have we missed anything today in this interview that you really wanted to
share today in our conversation? Is there something that you'd like to share
that we haven't addressed yet?
DL: I would just say not to be ashamed of who you are or who you love. Love is
love, no matter what color, what race, or who it is. Love is love. And don't be
01:36:00ashamed of who you love. And don't hide who you love.
MF: Thank you so much, DJ. It's just been such a pleasure talking with you today.
DL: You're quite welcome.
END OF AUDIO FILE