Thomas Duane, June 12, 2022 (Part 4)

MARY FOLTZ: My name is Mary Foltz, and I'm here with Senator Tom Duane to talk

about his life and experiences as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community

Oral History Project. This year our project has funding from ACLS, and Senator

Duane and I are meeting on Lehigh's Campus because he came back for the reunion.

THOMAS DUANE: My first one.

MF: For which I'm so happy about, and today is June 12, 2022. So, before we

begin the interview, I want to say first thank you for joining me today. And

then I just want to go back through some consent questions which you already

know, but I'll do them again, so do you consent to this interview today?

TD: I do.

MF: Do you consent to having the interview transcribed, digitized, and made

publicly available online and in other formats?

TD: I do.

MF: Do you consent to the LGBT Community Archive using your interview for

educational purposes and other formats, and that could be in articles, on 00:01:00websites, and in presentations?

TD: Entertainment too?

MF: But you are entertaining.

TD: [laughs] Yes, anything, it's an open book, I can send to it all, the only

secrets I don't tell are the ones I don't remember.

MF: Okay, [laughs] that's probably the same for me. And then do you understand

that you'll have 30 days after I give you electronically the transcript of this

interview to review it, to identify any parts that you would like to delete, or

you could withdraw the whole interview from the project?

TD: I wouldn't do that, but I do have to be honest, I did not read the other one

yet. So, there's a part of me that's like, oh just let it go, but I responsibly,

I probably should read it, so I'm sorry, I haven't done that.

MF: You can let it go if you want or review it and just tell me what you wanna

do with it.

TD: I mean, it's nice to have my own copy of it too so.

MF: I can also give you digital 00:02:00copies if you wanna share with family, so we'll

talk more about that later. So we talked last time, I'm just gonna jump right in

about all of your work with city council. And I'm curious if we could move to

this sort of transition from city council and your movement into a state Senate.

So I'm just gonna start with a basic question, how did that happen? Why were you

interested in the Senate? Can you share a little bit of that story?

TD: I had been in the city council for I guess six going on seven years, and my

local state senator, a woman named Catherine Abate, was going to give up her

seat to run for New York State attorney general.

So, there was going to be an open state Senate seat, and it's great that I get

to tell my own 00:03:00story. There had been a term limits referendum that won twice in

New York City, but I had a few years left that I could have stayed in the city council.

So, I just wanna say I did not run for the Senate because term limits were you

know, because I love being on the city council, but there was an open state

Senate seat. And so much of New York City is controlled by the state. If we

passed and this happened -- recently the council passed a plastic bag ban. And

because of the rivalry between then Mayor De Blasio and former Governor Cuomo

put forward a bag to supersede the city plastic bag ban with different dates,

just to, you know.

And some of it has always been the case is that way in many states, but some of

it was because of the fiscal crisis in the 70s. And at that time, New York City

needed the 00:04:00state to help bail them out. Now, the state needs the city to bail it

out all the time, but anyway.

An open seat and my council district was wholly within it. And people said, why

would you ever wanna be in the minority in the Senate, you can't get anything

done? And I thought to myself, if you think you can't get anything done, you're

not gonna get anything done, and I was like, I'm gonna get stuff done. So, a

little outrage in that, right?

But I thought that was such a poor attitude, and there had never been an openly

gay member of the state Senate. There had been Deborah Glick was in the assembly

from 1990, then I got elected in 1990 went to the council, but she was the only

out legislator. And I 00:05:00thought it was important to have representation, and I

knew that there would be other openly queer people coming into the council very

soon, and there's always more work to do.

But a number of things which we've talked about had happened and advancement had

been made, so I ran for the Senate, and I was unopposed. So that was easy, and I

raised money just in case because the best offense is a good defense. And

Catherine, the person who I was gonna succeed, she said that they were all

asking what's he like? What's he like? Because they knew I had been a member of

Act Up, and she said, oh you'll see when he gets there.

And so I had to hire staff there. So, I went up a little bit in advance with my

then chief of staff to interview people. 00:06:00And there was a state Senator there,

who I sort of bumped into as I was, sort of taking a tour around, who didn't

wanna shake my hand. Now, it could have been because of HIV. Could also be that

he just wasn't a very nice person.

He wasn't shaking the hands of Democrats, but it was very off putting, and I was

to find out that there was tremendous ignorance about HIV, really shocking.

Because I've already sort of gone through it in the city council, and now from

1992, now in 1999 with a whole new group of people, I was gonna have to go

through that.

And also I'm sure they had all met gay people before, 00:07:00but they weren't on an

equal footing, so that was different. And so off I went and I didn't know no

better, so I just went. In fact, the first day I was there, I went over to the

majority leader, Senator Joe Bruno, and I said, "Hi, I'm Tom Duane a new state

Senator succeeding Catherine Abate," And I said "Senator Bruno, I'm hoping that

you will restore domestic partner benefits to the state Senate".

The reason I had to say that, that I needed to say it was important to say that

was that former Governor Mario Cuomo had instituted domestic partnership for all

state employees. And because the legislative branch is separate, they can create

their own rules.

So then Senate majority leader just let it go through, but Senator Bruno, 00:08:00 when

he became leader, eliminated it, domestic partner benefits. So, I never want to

waste an opportunity, I requested that he reinstate it. Because it wasn't just

for me, I didn't even have a domestic partner, but the employees, some of whom

had already signed up for it, mostly Democrats. I'm not sure about the

Republicans at that time, staff members, but it was grotesquely unfair.

I think it was very good that I went in without a lot of preconceived notions.

Except that I didn't know the Republicans ran the show, but there were some

things I was unprepared for. One of them was that the Republicans treated the

Democratic senators really badly and under-resourced us, and I could never

understand why they were so nasty and mean.

And I 00:09:00found -- what I realized was when the Republicans had been in the

assembly, they're usually more than 100 Democrats and 50 Republicans. And the

Democrats were terrible to the Republicans in the assembly. So the Republican

assembly members, their life's ambition was to get into the Senate. And once

they got there, they were determined to do back exactly what had been done to

them. So I blame the assembly Democrats and their leadership for creating that

kind of poisonous atmosphere.

And since we have just gone through a new redistricting year in New York State,

because the Democrats controlled the assembly, and the Republicans controlled

the Senate. Democrats drew their own lines for their assembly districts,

Republicans drew their lines. They made them as winnable as possible for their

people, both of 00:10:00them. And then they would come together to draw the

congressional lines, and they would protect the incumbents.

And then there'd be two or three districts where it would be a toss up, where's

a fair fight I guess. And the Republicans did everything to stay in power. The

way the constitution reads, there's a certain formula by which -- or a range

within which the number, the population can be for a Senate district. So many of

the Republicans would have say, 270,000 people, I had 330,000 people in my district.

So, they made their district smaller, they split up cities, they counted people

who were incarcerated in their districts, so that was one of the ways they

maintained power. Another way was they flipped Democrats in marginal districts

promising them everything. And I was always happy when they lost to tell you the 00:11:00truth because it was greediness that made them, you know.

Of course, people want things to resources to come into their district, but I

don't think people vote, they should be voting on bringing home the bacon and as

it were only. So, the other thing they did was they added an extra seat one

year. That must have been the next redistricting year. [laughs] They just added

another seat, so they did everything. And when I was still there, six Democrats

became independent Democrats, and then started to vote with the Republicans, so

they did everything to stay in power.

And much later on, I did get to be in the majority for a couple of years, and I

treated them like senators. But there was another council member who a couple of

years later joined the Senate. We'd been colleagues in the city council he's a

conservative Republican, but we liked each other, we worked well 00:12:00together. He

wasn't mean to me, I wasn't mean to -- I wasn't mean to anybody by the way, I

just found that ridiculous.

And another person and I was really -- a Republican that I very much admired

that was just a really, really good guy. His name is Senator Ray Meyer, and he

represented the Utica area, and he had been a county executive, Oneida County.

So, he hadn't been in the assembly, so he didn't have that hatred. And I

actually got a bill passed through him.

I have to say, when I talk about some of the things that got passed while I was

there or maybe some budget things or policy changes. My name was never really on

the documents, my name was never the lead sponsor on anything, my name wasn't

even on anything. Many things that I fought for would be stuffed into a budget

bill or put into some other bill where everything but the kitchen sink was put

in 00:13:00there. Because the Republicans did not like the Democrats to ever be able to

say I was the lead sponsor on whatever bill it was that was going through.

Anyway, [coughs] one of the things that had languished in the Senate for a long

time was hate crimes legislation. And I believe I talked about my history of --

I had been beaten up in the parking lot of a gay bar. And severely, it was more

certainly -- I bruised ribs, bruised a little bit bloody, but the scary thing

was I didn't know what they had a weapon or not. And I went to the hospital

reported it to police, and they caught the 00:14:00 perpetrators.

And a couple weeks later, I called the local police department, and I said,

what's happening with my case? And they switched me to the DA's office, and the

DA said, they pled out on a misdemeanor. And I was shocked, because I didn't get

to confront them, so to speak. And it's not that I wanted them to have a felony,

but I wanted to be face-to-face with them.

And anyway, so the bill languished for a long time in the legislature because

the legislators of color in the assembly and in the Senate, would not remove

sexual orientation from the bill. And because of that, the Republicans in the

Senate would not pass it.

So my first year, 1999, 00:15:00I gave a speech on the floor about what had happened to

me and in great detail, which I don't talk about. I was -- this is the Hamptons,

which I -- not exactly lovely, but I was visiting someone, it was a Thursday

night, we're visiting some people. And I had driven, I probably borrowed a car

from my parents or something to a disco as we had then and loud disco as they

always are. And there weren't a lot of people there, so the parking lot wasn't

very full or anything.

But anyway, at a certain point, midnight, 1 o'clock or something, I had decided

to leave and I left and I was walking towards my car. And the car pulled up and

two of the people got out of the car and they said saying you fag, on and 00:16:00 on

with epithets, but menacingly. And then they started to hit me, punch me, kick

me. And I had some, I guess training about this, I was afraid if I fought back,

well maybe they'd pull out a knife or a gun then.

So I protected my head as best as I could and I started yelling, but the music

was so loud, no one inside could hear. And so they continued to do until someone

finally came out and then they ran back to the car and they drove away.

And, I was so upset, not only because I didn't get to confront them, but it was

as if it never happened, because the state didn't collect data on hate crimes.

And that's all I wanted, because I don't think you can really 00:17:00 fight.

I hate to say hate, because I don't think, the opposite of love isn't

necessarily hate at all. But ignorance and intolerance and I guess an

entitlement to beat up people that are different than you, or be violent towards

them. Boy, think about the gun violence perpetrated today. But anyway, I gave a

very, very impassioned speech on the floor about what had happened to me. And it

was a really good speech, if I must say so myself, because I pulled it out.

Anyway, there weren't cameras in those days in the Legislature. They didn't want

cameras. So it's probably a transcript of it. But I say that they were in the

City Council there's any film of me making these 00:18:00speeches that I made that were

Tom Duane speeches, I call them.

But a couple of the senators wept. There was a very conservative Republican

senator, an older man who stood up and said we must do something about this. He

voted against the bill, when it came up by the way. But in the moment, he was

moved by it. And the next year and I think because I was on it, the legislation

passed. It didn't have, I was not, my name wasn't anywhere on it, but your name

doesn't have to be on something to be associated with something.

And really whoever fights the hardest for something, I think is the person who's

you know -- the legislation, if you passed the bill in, your name was the first

name on the bill, you got a -- and the governor signed it, you would get this

sort of frame thing. It was 00:19:00like a diorama of the signature of the governor, the

bill, and then a fancy pen and it's framed with glass. It's like a box, and

there would be legislators who had them all over their offices.

Honestly, I mean, I really didn't care about that at all. I just wanted the

bills passed, which was just funny. I'm happy for people that, -- and I'm saying

this sincerely that it was something that they were proud of. And so they could

hang up something that was, but people couldn't understand why I didn't care

about that.

So anyway, my name wasn't on it, but it passed. And it was interpreted to

include gender identity and expression, fortunately because I hadn't written the

bill. I had my own version of a bill, but that wasn't the one that got 00:20:00 passed.

And the only way the Republicans would pass it was if it increased penalties.

And I again, that was not that important to me at all. But if it helps to get it

passed then good.

But it made the state division of criminal justice keep statistics on hate

crimes from around the state. So I was very happy that, that was the case. And

that was in my first two-year term in 2000. And, The other thing that happened

before I got there-- [coughs] [coughs] This is allergies not COVID. [laughs]

[coughs] Snapshot in 00:21:00 time.

So before shot person, they had these bills that for -- these past before I got

there for police officers, state police firefighters that if you had to retire

because you were ill with AIDS, it was presumed that you got it on the job. Also

correctional officers. I think that was the bill where I first it came to the floor.

Now these bills had even passed the assembly with Democrats where you would

think they would be more enlightened and, it enraged me. And one of the bills

said that if someone needed to be transported 00:22:00from a nursing home to a hospital

or a hospital to a nursing home. The medical staff from the emergency services

were entitled to have the patient tested for HIV and I really couldn't believe

it. And actually, this senator was a pretty intelligent senator in this scheme,

and I -- so I started debate and I was like what would be different?

Like what would be different, would you ever go to a dentist that didn't wear?

This is pre-AIDS, where they didn't wear protective gear. Would you ever be in a

hospital where someone was not wearing a mask and washing their hands? I mean

ridiculous. AIDS, HIV doesn't spread like that. 00:23:00And at one point you have to

stand behind your seat, and you have to talk to the president of the Senate to

keep everything civil.

So through you Mr. President if I could ask the sponsor -- anyway. But at one

point I moved over to hold the hand of another state Senator. And then when I

reached for her hand, I moved away from my seat. And they started an -- arms

started to come forward because they thought I was gonna hit the Senator whose

bill it was, which I would never have done. But I didn't mind that they thought

that, in fact the leader of the Democrats said, "oh yeah, Duane took out a

couple of people when he was in the council".

But I also, and I said this, this is I think what stopped these dreadful bills

from happening. I said according to the New York State Department Health AIDS

Institute there are only four ways that you can get HIV. Breast feeding, blood

transfusions, sharing needles 00:24:00with an injection drug user, or unprotected oral,

vaginal, or anal sex.

And I think I was probably the first person to say something like that on the

floor of the Senate. And the bills passed anyway, but eventually they stopped

bringing these bills forward. I don't think they really understood, they just

didn't want me to say that anymore. [laughs] I really think that's what it was,

because they knew it was coming any time these bills came to the floor in the

Senate. In fact, when I left I said and I just want to say one last time [LAUGH].

I got that unprotected oral, vaginal, or anal sex, again, unprotected -- anyway.

This is 1999, 2000. And these bills were passing. And because I kind of made fun

of these 00:25:00bills, there are other bills that unions wanted. It was sort of like a

free giveaway to their members that wasn't getting an increase in their wages or

other benefits, but sort of a freebie benefit that it would be presumed that you

got HIV on the job.

So their unions that came forward that were like the City University of New York

guards, or taxi inspectors. And I shouldn't have, -- I wasn't making light of

the professions or I was just pointing out how ridiculous this was. And it was

particularly ridiculous, because I had fought to get the division of AIDS

services bill passed. These bills made it so that if you retired because you had

AIDS, you got to kept making three quarters of your salary and got your benefits

etc etc. So which I'm in favor of, of course I'm in favor of that.

By the way, no police officer, firefighter, 00:26:00or correction officer ever had AIDS.

At least they didn't claim they did. So, but it was a benefit of throw away. And

so I actually almost had a primary based on my questioning why a taxi inspector

or college security officer would need to, why would we presumed that they got

AIDS on the job. And because it implies you can get it through the air.

And in New York and other places, people who, like someone who was in a

correctional facility, if they spit at a correction officer, the correction

officer was entitled to have that incarcerated person tested for HIV. 00:27:00And it

didn't even actually have to be in the correctional facilities. It could happen

just when you were with law enforcement in the outside world. That was something

that people went to jail for that. For spitting or just absurd. But then at

least this was, -- well I'm just thinking back on that. It was so shocking to me

that people didn't get that in 1999 and 2000 that you couldn't casually contract HIV.

Anyway, the candidate who was being put up against me didn't qualify for the

ballot. So, I end up not having a primary and we became friendly. And I made

peace with the union. I explained to them, look, I just think you need to prove

that you got it on the job, then I'm fine with it.

But I would 00:28:00say, what is the taxis, are they breastfeeding? Are they sharing

needles? Are they having unprotected oral, vaginal, or anal sex? Like, what is

in their job description is there that would make it so that they would contract

HIV? I did eventually do a bill that was sort of an omnibus bill that said that,

in order to get the benefit, you had to get basically a note from your doctor,

that you got it on the job.

Which maybe if you were a nurse or a doctor or a physician's assistant, in a

commercial facility maybe, but still very unlikely. So, and then the other thing

I did was I introduced a bill that said that if there's some sort of a dust up

between incarcerated 00:29:00person and a correction officer that the incarcerated

person was entitled to have the correction officer tested. Which of course was

not in favor of either, was to make the point of how absurd it was.

But I just, I remember saying that that bill got the emergency, I was like what

would be different, what would be different? I mean, I could sort of understand

if you would want to know before, though that's ridiculous also. Because you

should always be wearing protective gear and people were already transporting

people with HIV all over the place, all the time. Maybe that would make a little

bit sense.

But after the fact, and this was to come up again, by the way, in a sexual

assault. If someone was accused of a sexual assault, they were subjected to

mandatory testing. And first of all it's wrong because innocent till proven

guilty. But also what you would 00:30:00immediately have to do is to give the person

who's been assaulted the prophylactic drugs right away. Before you would even

have the results of the test, that was the most important thing.

And I did later on, as part of HIV/AIDS bill, get in that the state would pay

for that. Because prior the victim would have to pay to have their prophylactic

treatment and their testing being done. So it was just very very illogical,

their approach and of course it also criminalized people with HIV.

And in the same way that incarceration is not treated appropriately as often a

mental health issue, they were mistreating HIV as well. And I hope they weren't

doing it just to 00:31:00pander but I also hope or wish that they knew better.

So anyway. I've never thought of myself as a very good debater. But I could

compete, I found out. And one time there was this bill that said that if someone

who -- oh they loved incarceration bills. My God, sex offenders, incarceration

like all the time. Oh, they had to like -- what else, where else can we put a

higher penalty or something, anyway. This bill said that if someone broke parole

that they had to no matter what, serve out the entirety of their sentence.

And the time, the New York prisons were overcrowded so they were letting people

out earlier. People will get out early. If you got a 15 year sentence you could

probably get out years before. But if you broke parole you would have to 00:32:00 stay.

So, I said to the Senate, well how many people would this impact? How many --

well of course he had no idea about that, but he should have. I would have, he

had no idea.

So, the senator that I like so much was actually the acting as the president of

the Senate and he banged his gavel down. And he said we're locking the doors. He

said we were all being punished. And we all had to stay locked in this [laughs]

chamber and if you wanted to go to the bathroom you were escorted by a sergeant

at arms. And I would like to be remembered as the person that made them close

the doors. But I was remembered for asking if I could choose which sergeant

would accompany me [laughs] the bathroom.

I just didn't know that something -- in my -- as an elected official I have

some, in that role I have some control over my blurting. But sometimes it just

gets away [laughs]. So that got in the 00:33:00papers. Listen to me still now, I'm like

[sighs deeply]. Like I -- But something else interesting happened with Senator

Joe Bruno who changed rather dramatically. While I was there, but he liked me in

the same way that Peter Vallone, and the council of conservative Catholic

elected official maybe open their eyes.

And one time he called me into his office and he said you're pretty smart, but

sometimes your tongue is a little sharp. Because I would ask senators questions,

Republican senators questions about their bills and they were so used to not

being challenged and they were all one house bills or mostly of one house bills.

So, they didn't 00:34:00pass the assembly, but they were so used to not having questions

asked. They usually couldn't answer my questions and I was prepared for every

bill that came up on the agenda with lots of questions, especially when I was

gonna vote against it.

And so he said your tongue is a little sharp, and what he was saying was "Don't

make my guys look stupid". That's mean, he didn't say that's mean, but I have

said that is being mean. So from then on -- by the way none of the Democrats

picked up on this. They continued their questioning, I just would stand up and I

would speak on the bill.

I would just list all the reasons why I was opposed to it. I would -- I guess

RBG, not that I'm comparing myself, but she always said that she would start off

with what she thought the other side would say when arguing a case. And she

would answer those questions first. So that's kinda what I did was I answered my

own 00:35:00questions, that either would have tripped up the Republicans or would have

maybe pointed out the absurdity of it.

And I -- so I just spoke, but in a very polite manner. And then my relationship

with the Republicans became much much much better. And so he gave me very good

advice and I was very fond of him. Even though I believe he tried to entrap me

later on, when he was in trouble with the feds over something. But he was

senator of his word. And if he couldn't do something, he would say it's just not

the time. But he would tell me he was honest about that and I appreciated that.

So, that those first couple of years, a little bit of a blur I 00:36:00guess. And also

we, the legislature was always unable to agree on a budget that the governor who

then was Governor Pataki, a Republican. They could never agree on a budget. So

we would be there all year long at least once a month, we would have to go up

for a continuing resolution or sometimes we had to stay for a few days. And in

retrospect, I think there was an awful lot of senators that had additional

families there. And I think they liked staying there a while longer.

And I also think that people that came from underserved neighborhoods, food

deserts, etc. That they got some extra time than to do shopping and all that

because I did. I bought my toilet paper and paper towels and because it was

cheaper than Manhattan. Remember one time pulling -- I had a shopping cart in

the trunk of my car and a senator said, "why do you have that shopping cart?"

and I wanted to say to him "because I'm smart".

But I 00:37:00explained to why I had it, so that I could buy bulk items more

inexpensively not at Walmarts, but I did go to Kmarts and Targets. There was a

huge target in Saratoga, it was like a Super Target. And unlike in New York

City, everything's always picked over, the shelves were always full and

pristine. I had to -- I was not chasing interns around their desk. And I was

also unfortunately eating at receptions and then eating also. So I started to

gain weight, which made me unhappy and I look -- and my exercise, it just disappeared.

I just, worked all the time, and when I didn't work, I once a month I would go

to Target once a month, TJ Maxx once a month or have to [laughs] parcel it out

for these little adventures. And living like an American, unlike a New York City

person. You know with cars, you throw it in the trunk; I 00:38:00lived in my car. I

still have that habit, snacks, beverages [laughs] in my car, an extra

toothbrush, anyway. But we were there all year long.

So, in 2001 was the bombing of the Trade Center and that was in my district, and

it was a Democratic primary day in New York City. And I had been out handing out

cards for a candidate that I was supporting. And then a little before nine,

someone sorta -- someone relieved me at that location.

So, I went back to my apartment to have a cup of coffee or whatever because she

started six in the morning, when the polls open. And I was listening to the

radio, and they said the plane had crashed in the Trade 00:39:00Center. And they said it

was must have been just a small plane and then it was, no it's a huge plane. And

then I turned on the TV and so it was happening. And then I had a view; I could

look out my window and see it. And I really don't quite know how to talk about it.

And New Yorkers, you -- the only time we really talk about it is right around

9/11. Even though we all experienced it and it was terrible. I didn't know a lot

of people that worked there. They're mostly people in financial services who

lived in the suburbs, but I knew some of the law enforcement people. Some of my

local firefighters, I knew 00:40:00Father Michael, who is sorta famous. Who was the

chaplain to the firefighters, and gay. And probably should be canonized. There's

a movement, but they probably won't because he was gay. He's a lovely man.

I remember, you know I was in Chelsea, but at a certain point I saw the second

tower go down. I was still in my apartment, but then I went out on the street

and there were people just covered with 9/11 dust and there were phone 00:41:00booths or

street phones in those days. There was no cell service because they were just

too jammed or, so people were waiting [in] line to call their families to see

that they were alive. One of the things that I did at one point was, and I don't

know how we did it, but I got the other elected officials, we came together, we

tried to reach out to as many people as we knew who lived down in Tribeca and

Battery Park City in the financial district.

And we, we sorta made a gathering in a city owned park. It was asphalt or

basketball courts just above Canal Street. And it was very moving, because that

was the first time that a lot of these people saw each 00:42:00other. And I guess it was

a week later. Time is very-- I remember in the way day by day. In retrospect I

wish kept a diary.

But earlier the sound of the sirens. Of course there were no survivors. So there

was but the police sirens and ambulances, fire trucks and just went on and on

and they were posters up all over, just 8.5 by 11 printed out sheets. Have you

seen this person all over Lower Manhattan? All over the Village, all over

Chelsea? Have you seen this person? This person. It was really, really heartbreaking.

I had, I would call a particular cousin of mine who lived in New Jersey. And she

and her husband knew people in the Trade Center and asked me if I could help to

find them, 00:43:00it was not finding anyone. And I heard an NPR announcer on the radio

say a couple days later, she said it's another achingly beautiful day in New

York City. Because it was every day was bright and sunny and cool and beautiful

New York City days. And this terrible smell of this thing that was burning. And

I went down there.

And there were people, -- the Trade Center was so huge that the firefighters are

just volunteers who were like digging through the rubble. They almost look like

ants on an ant hill. That's how huge the footprint was, of how this had

happened. And you could 00:44:00see, the particles in the air. And anyway I didn't -- it

was a very stressful time. And we were called back to Albany.

We hadn't done a budget yet. We didn't do a budget at all that year. We never

got a budget done at all, kept going back all the time. But the first time,

yeah, we went back in the same way that the US Congress passed the Patriot Act

bills that only Barbara from the San Francisco area, for the Bay Area, Barbara

Lee voted against them.

We have been seeing similar kind of bills like roving wiretaps and I voted

against all of 00:45:00them. I was the only one that voted against all them, a couple

people had voted against like one or two of the bills. But I really, -- why are

we restricting our freedom when allegedly what everyone is saying they hate us

because we were a democracy and freedom. Which is debatable also, but why are we

passing those to restrict people's rights?

And the minority leader of the Senate made a speech about how the Trade Center

was in his district and I know this isn't a -- yeah, not a big deal, but he did

used to represent it, but in a redistricting year and the democratic leader, got

to choose their own leader, their own district. Everybody else was just whatever

the republicans gave them. So he had opted to not have the Trade Center to have

more of Brooklyn in his 00:46:00 district.

And I was really furious about that, you could say I used to, I know people --

whatever and I was just shocked. And I didn't say anything, but I did lose my

temper with him after. Ordinarily I wouldn't lose my temper about something like

that, but it was a very difficult time and that primary day was canceled. The

canidate I was supporting who had the momentum would have won the council seat

and ended up not winning when they voted again.

But the smell was still going on. That primary day, it was raining and, and so

the smell was still there, but it was different. And I remember someone on his

palm card, he was saying to me, can't you do something about that smell? And I

was like, no I can't do anything about 00:47:00 that.

I was gonna say something else I think about the whole, that it was on primary

day and so I ended up voting for the primary day that didn't count. The one that

did count, then there was a runoff. I voted a lot that year, but we also went to

Albany a lot that year, as I say, we never passed another budget. So, we just

worked off the budget from the year before.

And my district also has this museum, the Intrepid, it's an old battleship. And

the executive director, who my gaydar, that meter was went off the rails with

him, couldn't go high enough. He offered to me to 00:48:00offer to Senators to take a

boat and go down and look at it from the river, so I did that. He was on my

grudge list later on for other reasons, he did eventually come out, you're

welcome, I'll tell you what it was.

I think let's, we'll take a moment from the heaviness and I'll tell a lighter

story, so he came out eventually. And, when Governor Paterson stepped in, when

Governor Spitzer stepped down, there was an email exchange between Governor

Paterson and this guy where he said, "I'll do everything, anything I can to help

you, especially if you end up running 00:49:00against Andrew Cuomo," and he said,

"because I'm a gay and I can be helpful and I'm a gay, but I'm not a gay like

Tom Duane".

Not a gay like Tom Duane. And I said, I have that, he deleted it. Probably not

because of the, "I'm not a gay like Tom Duane," probably because it was an

anti-Cuomo thing, and little did he know that actually Andrew Cuomo at some

point just started to completely control what Governor Paterson, the worst

governor New York City has ever had, was doing.

So anyway, I'm not a gay like Tom Duane. And because I was a Senator, when

marriage passed, because of my involvement, I got invited to some classy

weddings. And I went to a couple of them, but I was invited to his wedding and I

did not attend and I did not send a gift. And the other thing about him 00:50:00 was

that, I had a bad feeling when Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton were running for

president and people would say to me, "Well you don't think Donald Trump could

really win," and I would be like "I -- yeah, no I do," but people would freak out.

So, I stopped saying it and I just said. [shurgs] But he was every news, TV news

thing led off with him, every newspaper, there was something about him on the

front page. And he was, as the president of Viacom said, he was paid a lot of

money for the networks and for you know.

And Americans are very -- I would say you know, TV is the beginning of social

media and its evils. Because and especially by then there were all these other

news stations that people were watching.

But I was invited 00:51:00to her victory party which was very close to where I lived. It

was at the New York convention center, and I lived just a few blocks from there

and I didn't go, I just had a bad feeling. With the point of the story is, so

this newly married couple were at Hillary's headquarters, when they realized

that she lost, they walked over to the Trump headquarters and said whatever you

want. And they got stuff. And a little later on I was walking down my block and

it was fairly quiet day and they lived in a loft building just a half a block

away from me.

And there were all these cars parked, all these secret service looking and

police cars, and I realized that they must be having some sort of a party or

something. They were having a party for this Ambassador Grenell that was

appointed one of the only openly gay people in Trump administration. Who 00:52:00 was

just a right wing, like he was sent to Germany too. Where he loved, the

President of Austria. Loved all these despots and he was our-- Angela Merkel was

like the beacon of the free world at the time, and that's where they sent him.

So they were having a party for him. That's another point of that story.

Maybe we'll come back to 9/11, but I am very upset still about those bills that

got passed because they can be so misused. And we see on the federal level, I

mean that everyone gets to see that. Everyone gets to see how those laws have

been just used to do terrible things, and to really take away civil liberties.

That the president 00:53:00can say we're at war without even going to Congress, if the

president wants to. Unheard of in our democracy.

So, after my -- so our terms are two years. So, my second term, I was determined

to get SONDA to pass, which was Sexual Orientation Nondiscrimination Act, I

guess; it was a gay rights bill. And, I was also determined to include gender

identity and expression in it and the bill that passed the Assembly for many

years, but it never passed the Senate, even without gender identity/expression.

So, the assembly built didn't have that wording in it, and this is a case where

money is poisoned politics. A lot of wealthy, New York, white 00:54:00guys started

spreading money around. They made a deal with Governor Pataki that they would

make no endorsement in the gubernatorial race if he would be supportive of SONDA

passing. I guess Joe Bruno was on board.

By the way, in the meantime, I got to meet and became a little bit friendly with

Joe Bruno's gay brother. And, later on I did a couple of things where they

weren't really getting along and I got them, I put -- got them sort of back

together, speaking with each other.

But I -- my bill included gender identity/expression. The bill that moved

through the Assembly, that landed in the Senate did not have that in it. And I

believed that the bill could pass that would 00:55:00not make any difference, if it

includes gender identity, no vote, not one vote would change. Mostly people

wouldn't even notice it was in there and if they did, they were gonna and there

were no voters they were voting no anyway. And the yes people were not gonna not

vote for it because it was in there.

So I was very upset, and I went to Joe Bruno and I said we need to put this in

because if we don't put it in, it's gonna be a decade before it can't -- it

won't go on its own. And he said to me you have a point there and I think he

would have done it. But these rich guys were too afraid that it might not pass,

they didn't wanna have to, the assembly, have to pass the bill again with extra

language in it.

And so I put an amendment on the floor when the bill came up, something else

terrible had happened. No, no, what is it? Well, but he was not a party, I'm

telling you. I was playing chicken with the 00:56:00bill. I wouldn't commit to

supporting it if it didn't include gender identity and expression, which is not.

And Marty Connor, who had been our leader, was dethroned and David Paterson

became the new minority leader and these three gay men asked if I would sort of

make an introduction to him officially. And one of them was something I've known

for many years. It had not been a perfect relationship, it was a political

relationship. He represented real estate interests, but he also helped a lot of

queer organizations.

Then there was the head of the statewide LGBT 00:57:00Organization, it took me a minute

to think of it. It's not just [inaudible], but I blocked it out, The Pride

Agenda, it was called The Pride Agenda. It was -- I think they had like used a

brand or something to come up with that name so that--anyway, just put the

initials in. But anyway, The Pride Agenda. The head of The Pride Agenda and this

other wealthy gay man, and on the way up, Ethan said to me, "Well, but if the

bill comes up, will you vote for it?" I said, "Of course I'll vote for it, of

course I will".

And one of them went to the press to the New York Times and they called me and

asked me, so it made me look like a liar. I was so upset, like why did they do

--? It was 00:58:00terrible, I was very -- I knew it was a tactic, Of course I would

vote for it, but I did put an amendment on the floor. Most of the democrats

voted for it, but I was very angry. I knew it was going to pass anyway, there

was no, it was going to pass. The deal had been made, the deal had been cut. So

I said, I think some angry words about people that didn't wanna put gender

identity and expression.

And when the celebration afterwards, there were some people that wouldn't shake

my hand, you know congratula -- Mind you, I was the one that you know -- I was

the only Sen -- I like -- hate crimes. My name was not on the bill, but there

was no doubt, that I was pushing it the force behind it, yeah, other people

wanted it, but I was annoying about it.

And then one of them started to call 00:59:00my campaign donors and told them not to

give me money anymore. It's all right, there were enough people in the world

that I could raise enough money to keep going. But I just thought that was --

because for as long as I can remember, I had been, I'm passionate about the

rights of people who we would, now say non-binary, regardless of their gender identity/expression.

It was just something I always, I don't know I can't imagine any other --

feeling any other way. And so I was really upset. It took 20 years, not 10

years. It took 20 years to get it passed. And there was something wonderful that

happened. I was out of the Senate, and it got passed when Governor 01:00:00Cuomo was

governor and he was signing at the LGBT center. And I had stuff with Governor

Cuomo prior to this which I'll probably talk to you about. A lot because he

broke my heart. Anyway the Executive Director Glenda Tessa, who I love, of the

center was making introduction to assembly members. And senator so and so, and

council member, borough president.

And then our own former New York State Senator Tom Duane and they're like,

[inaudible] gave me a standing ovation. And even though I couldn't get it

passed, they knew how much I fought to try to make it 01:01:00happen. I'm very grateful

for that. All right let's move out of this.

So then when the governor with whom I'd had stuff with and had not spoken to me

at all for years, he saw the reaction so he couldn't not say something. So he

said "I know Tom Duane. We go way back, you know my father had AIDS." and I

thought -- because I'll tell you there'll be more -- this big relationship, and

non-relationship with Andrew Cuomo and I was a supporter of his father's. What

about us?

But anyway when they do the ceremony thing and he does a letter. And he gives a

pen away as he's signing his 01:02:00name and somebody go up there and get a pen. So I

went up and I got a pen from him and as I was walking away, he turned and he

said, "Are we okay?" I said "Yes governor, we're okay". I had to forgive him. I

didn't know about all the stuff that was to come out afterwards. But at that

time, I forgave him for the way he had treated me really after marriage passed

in New York.

But sometimes say for some elected officials, it's just business and I know that

and I wouldn't take things personally. But I work better with people that had a

core, even if they were for the death penalty or they're anti. If this was

something, well then we could talk about it. But if someone's just doing it

because they were 01:03:00pandering or afraid for their district. They're not gonna

change their mind if they already know better. The fact when marriage passed,

there were many Republicans hugging and kissing me who hadn't voted for because

they were afraid to. But they were so happy that it passed. And so a whole other

story with the governor to wanting to make the 11 o'clock news.

I kinda have lost my place in the world now. SONDA, everyone mad at me. You know

later on when I was in the majority I passed our safe schools act. It was called

the Dignity for All Students Act which I couldn't get passed when I was in the

minority unfortunately. But it included gender identity and expression, and no

one said a word about it. The couple of people who were voting against it were

voting against it 01:04:00anyway. And just to prove my point that it really -- not a

story except for the people who were impacted or wouldn't be held by anyway.

So my second term was SONDA. Now it sounds like that's all, [laughs] I didn't

only do queer stuff. I did a lot of other stuff too. I used to say I spent 85%

of my time doing you know, when I get 15% of press for it. The 15%, I just spend

it on queer stuff. I get 85% [laughs] of my press on that.

But this senator who was the county exec who did lock us all in because I asked

that question, not of him, but of another senator. I asked him to come to New

York with me. And I wanted to show him, -- Mayor Giuliani had this policy that

if you were on public benefits, you had to 01:05:00work. So, there were, especially

women with children who were going to school to try to -- because education is

key. But maybe they're going to school at Manhattan Community College or

Brooklyn Community College. But they were assigned to clean a park in the Bronx,

and children go to school and doing it was impossible. It was impossible for

them. And it made it so they just couldn't --

I used to see women they jump, they run into McDonald's on the way to their

classes at Manhattan Community College. And I guess they must have asked a

family member to watch their children or something like that. So, how anxious

they were to have a better life. But there was a program -- so Mayor Giuliani

said they have to go work in par -- not even with working in 01:06:00parks or anything

of course. But not because you're poor and you need money to get by on. And

mothers would make the best choice. Sometimes they wouldn't make money so they

could keep the whole family on Medicaid. Otherwise, they would lose their

benefits, they'd lose their food stamps, they'd lose their rental assistance. So

they were kinda trapped. But going to school, which is work would not have

threatened their remaining having benefits for the family while they went to school.

Anyway, I asked Senator Mayer to come to New York because I knew he would

understand this. And I brought him to -- there's a group at Hunter College

Welfare Rights [Initiative] that really got me engaged in this issue. So we

visited with them, we went to Bronx Community College, we went to Hunter, we

went 01:07:00to private university as well.

And also, we had a meeting with this group called the New York [City]

Partnership which is the umbrella group for New York business people. And he was

very engaged in what was going on and what people were saying. And when we met

with the partnership people, they said look, nothing wrong with cleaning parks,

but work study and internship is giving people skills for jobs that we actually

have and wanna fill. So, they were very supportive of it.

And I remember Senator Mayer saying, are these real jobs? And they are real

jobs. They got real jobs, challenging jobs, important jobs. But work that does

help to move 01:08:00along in your work life and your career. And he said at what point,

"Well aren't we like giving them an extra advantage? What about Joe at the gas

station?" Well Joe he can go to community college that's-- but we're making it

impossible. So he said, so are we giving this special treatment? I said no we're

just not holding them back. And it was like a light, and then he really really

got it.

And he liked it so much that he started a program up in his district, up in

Oneida. And I met the people who were running it and of course they were

lesbians. I don't know if he knew [laughs] but yeah, my gaydar was off the

charts. But that was thrilling that he liked it so much and he believed. So he

was a conservative Republican, but he believed that government actually could

help people because he was county exec. Not a 01:09:00mistreated Republican assembly

member and he brought it to his county because it really helped people.

So that's the kinda -- those are the -- he voted for hate crimes, he didn't vote

for SONDA. I was very upset about that. And then someone said to me, "Well did

you ask him?" And I said [laughs] no because I thought -- it never occurred to

me that he wouldn't vote for it. His daughter had a huge influence on him, and I

don't think he asked her about SONDA, he asked her about hate crimes. He wasn't

in office when marriage came up, but he said that she would have like [swipes hand].

But there's a whole story about who convinced senators to vote for marriage. And

often times it was the spouse, and the family, the kids. In fact, there was this

show on Showtime about first ladies and for years and years I said to people --

because Barack Obama, he was in 01:10:00favor of marriage equality when he was a Senate,

state senator in Illinois.

He checked the box with the gay organization you know, the political group asked

a question. But then he backed off when he was running for president. But I

said, I'm sure there was some morning when Michelle said "Barack, me and Malia

and Sasha. We are not gonna talk to you until you come out in favor of this and

on this." You know it's fiction. But it's a very similar saying that it's

exactly the way it was with Michelle Obama saying, one of the kids, you know.

Not understanding, how could you not vote for civil rights.

How could you not be for this? It was a very similar situation. So I know what's

going on the White House and I always thought Joe Brun -- I'm sorry, Joe Biden

just blurted out that he was for marriage. This television fictional makes it

seem as if he was sort of-- that Michelle went to him and asked him to do it.

Who knows what really 01:11:00happened. Anyway. Because who doesn't love Michelle Obama,

who would never run for president, but I would vote for her in a heartbeat.

After 9/11, similar to how veterans got special benefits in New York State,

different tax breaks. And also, the spouses of police officers and firefighters

who died in the line of duty. I'm applying men, mostly men. That a whole other

story of women fighting to get into the fire department particularly. But there

are a lot of bills that gave benefits to spouses.

And the 01:12:00senator who was the chair of the committee, was the codes committee,

that the bills would go through before they came to the floor. He was very

conservative. He was very much in favor of the death penalty. I believe he was a

former state trooper, and he was a lovely man, and a gentleman, and would listen

to critique.

So, for instance, there'd be a bill about something having to do with sexual

assault, but it never made it never made a differentiation. That's not the right

word, but. An 18 year old, and a 16 year old or a 15 year old, is different than

a 40 year old, and a 13 year old, but the laws never would make 01:13:00any -- there was

no delineating in any way.

And when I raised that with him, he -- it gave him pause for thought, and he

started to modify the bills a little bit when he could. So, I was happy about

that because I knew kids, you know, [inaudible] kids that -- stories like --

this one boy was having a relationship with another boy who was -- one was 18,

the other one was 15, lived with his grandmother and his grandmother turned in

the 18 year old.

He went to Rikers, he went to serve time and get on the sex offenders list. And

the level of the sex offender list that you get with the 1, 2, or 3, it depends

on how much money you have and what lawyer you have. There is no -- and in New

York City, it's impossible to not live near a school, it's impossible. And

they're not allowed to live in public housing. 01:14:00And believe me, I do know something about sex offenders and some can go into

remission and not reoffend, but you kind of never know. So, a sex offender

should never be in a room with a child alone ever. And if they are then it's

trouble. But there are ways that people can not reoffend.

In fact, I visited a New York State correctional facilities where they had a

program for sex offenders. And I was very prepared to think it was not going to

be a good program. And in this particular facility, which was run by a woman, it

was in Oneida actually, was really, really good. And I got to see the men who

first arrived and first started the program and the 01:15:00denial they had about what

their offense had been.

And then I got to see a group that was ready to finish, and about how they took

responsibility for what they had done and new tools to use to help them to not

reoffend. But they were all concerned about getting jobs and a place to live

when they got out. And the other interesting thing was none of them were

victimized when they went back into general population and their other

facilities if they had been through this program. There was another program

which I didn't get to visit, which I heard wasn't that good, but I was very,

very impressed. And it's an area that I know about, and I'll probably talk about.

The other thing that I did was I would vote for these bills that gave benefits

to the spouses of people who were killed in 9/11 [coughs]. And now of 01:16:00 course

it's also people, the long term effects of the spouses. But I said, look, I'm

voting for the bill, but next year could you add domestic partner in? And he

said yes, just don't tell anyone else. I was like fine with me.

So there are a lot of things that I made no noise about, but I just got it done.

I mean, they had money for HIV/AIDS that came from the federal government. They

don't know what to do with it, so they would give it to me to help them to give

it around the state where I knew groups, but they would give me money to give away.

So, I recall when I say, "Someone is gonna call you and they're gonna tell you

how to get $100,000. It's gonna come to you from the state, but do not thank me,

just do whatever they say". The Republi -- really all but one liked me, but

nobody liked him either. And anyway, so I was able to do things quietly and that

was fine. I just wanted to get things 01:17:00 done.

And by the way, the SONDA, the gay rights bill, my name was not on that bill. It

wasn't my bill, but a Republican was the lead sponser. There were no Democrats

on the bill. It was always given to a moderate Republican to make them seem

moderate, that they with the lead sponsor of these bills. Didn't always help

them, but just a funny way to do business, very un-senatorial.

I just hesitated because we haven't talked about this, but there's something

very personal that happened with me when I went to Albany that I did. You can

decide whether or not you want to use it, I'm fine with it. So I'm in recovery

from drugs and alcohol for now 39 years, and I have issues of food and 01:18:00money and

people. Not gambling except, I have no problem with slot machines or things like

that. But anything involving skill, because I'm an ADHD, I would -- if It was

poker or 21, I would never leave because I would have to think about it.

And I know that because I'd never been to the track before, and Saratoga is a

big, you know. They have trotters and we all went on a trip there all the

senators and a couple of them knew how to read the score cards. What race is the

horse in, they knew who the jockey was, what was the place where they had

competed before. And they explained it all to me and I went and I bet and I won,

I won and I won, and I placed and I won and I won. I was anxious they weren't

gonna get -- because they came to the tables that they were going to get there

in time and I didn't want to leave. And as I went out I 01:19:00said, I must never come

here again [laughs].

So gambling fortunately, I mean there's no skill involved buying lottery tickets

fortunately [laughs]. I guess they share their strategies with those cards to

see whether or not they won or not. Anyway, I am also a recovering sex addict,

sex and love addict, romantic obsessive, but I'm a garden variety sex addict.

When I got elected to the Senate, I said to myself, I don't want to take this

with me, I don't want to take this with me. And so I went to a five day

outpatient program and I learned a lot, and was able to not completely recover,

but it was, let's say harm reduction was much better 01:20:00night, so to go to 12 step meetings.

And then I went to, it was my first week in Albany, my staff person, my counsel

Mark, who I just love and miss. So, the first week I have to say, I won't be

here next week because I'm going to a five day workshop on sex addiction because

I'm a sex addict. Anyway, yeah, he went along fine. But that summer, that

September, I went to a two week program in Los Angeles and when I finished that

program, I never -- I've been sexually sober since then. And sometimes with

anorexia, they went from being not an anorexic to being 01:21:00anorexic. But the people

at this place when I was talking about what happened in the correctional facility.

The place that I went to, they had all trained in the hospital in California

called Delano. And there are two tracks in Delano, one was for sex offenders,

and one was for garden variety. And at one point they just said, "We're only

gonna do sex offenders, so the garden variety people had to go someplace else".

And so they started this institute where they also trained therapists, so that's

where I went. But they were very tough, you had to say the things that -- I

mean, I did not -- my behaviors were not particularly offender behavior.

I did have sex with people, but I always used condoms, which of course laws

often don't differentiate between [inaudible]. But I was very rigidly since 1983

about safe sex with anyone I had sex with. 01:22:00Anyway, one of the groups, there were

just three of us.

They were very small, and the place was just starting out, so it was affordable.

But there was a man there who molested some of his children and some of his

grandchildren. And I have a history of abuse in my family. And he got to hear

from me, the impact it had on me, but I also heard his story and his grandfather

had molested him. So hopefully he would break the chain, anyway.

But the good thing was I was in Albany and I would go to anonymous drugs and

alcohol meetings, and I would go to anonymous help group, to help, to say

recovery from my sex addiction. And they didn't know who I was, which was 01:23:00 great

because most of the meetings in New York City, many of them are at the center

where people would--

So I was anonymous and it was great. It wasn't until much later on that they

found out. And being a senator from Upstate is a much bigger thing than New York

City because they would say, "You're a senator like Joe Bruno?" But anyway, they

did not know, and I didn't say what I did for work and it was great. The good

thing about going to this place was when I left there, the shame that I'd been

feeling my whole life lifted, and I realized that I had been living my whole

life with carrying this burden of shame that I didn't realize I had until I

didn't have it.

So right now what's happening is I'm feeling shame because I'm talking about

this at all. There's 01:24:00nothing to be ashamed of, there's no reason, but it's a

physical thing, it starts here goes up and my face turns a little bit red, and I

can feel that I'm having a shame attack, but there's nothing I said to be -- and

I'm glad I know that so I'm not carrying that burden. It was such a great burden

to be able to unload, you know because-- anyway.

So that's why I -- when I went to the correction facility with the people that

had been offenders, I kind of had a lot of knowledge about it. It became very --

actually, I thought I might go into the field when I left office. I haven't, but

I might still someday. But anyway, it was a great place to 01:25:00 recover.

And then when I was in New York City I didn't care who saw me go into whatever

room. If they saw me they saw me, they didn't, you know what I mean, maybe it

was meant to be that way and it's a disease. And I don't know why I was too

ashamed to go for such a long time and I was in other groups where people are

anonymous. So, I mean who else is there, the same anonymous people. Who are they

going to say -- So I don't know why I wasn't able to do it sooner, but I was

able to do it when I was able to do it, and I was very glad about that.

One of the bills that I fought very hard for was to make it possible for people

who had been abused by persons in positions of authority. And this was not 01:26:00popular among my colleagues, and everyone thought it was, there were a lot of

people who said, oh you're just anti catholic. I'm like, no, and this isn't even

just about that. It's about boy scout leaders and coaches and the person down

the block, this is not particular, it's not not about them.

I think it does make you crazy and saying, Well, this has bankrupted a lot of

diocese. No, they go into bankruptcy on purpose to delay having to give

depositions and things. It's a tactic, they transfer the money to a high school

or a cemetery, that's how they say it's their bankrupt. They don't go bankrupt

because they're paying anything out there, they're delaying that.

So since then, New York, they actually did pass it, and I'm really happy about

that. But then it was a huge celebration, my God, I was like, -- everybody hated

me, but they're 01:27:00all these heroes. Again, I am thrilled that it passed and it

gives you a year window opportunity. I don't know actually what my bill said

from the time that you reasonably could have recovered the memory. So like a

therapist would have to certify sort of, that you recovered the memory and it

was for a year from then that you were able to take some action.

And it was very important bill, and it did get me on the O'Reilly Factor. Bill

O'Reilly, who I was eligible to be yelled at by him. And it's funny because at

the time, the irony, that I was on the show about positions, people in 01:28:00 positions

of authority misusing it with power and sexual inappropriateness. But he sits

higher than you do. And then I said, yeah, your eyes is so much bluer in person

than in TV, which kind of threw him off his game. So in that one he said, "Well,

I agree with you, but some would say you're only doing this because," -- like I

said, "Well, then you did just say that".

And you'd be surprised at the number of people who I didn't think would be Fox

News watchers that actually said, I saw you on TV. I went on something else

against the first Iraq war and I signed some advertisement, a full page in the

newspaper. Remember newspapers, full page in the newspaper, and there was

something in it that said something about Nazis 01:29:00and if I had seen that, I

wouldn't have signed it.

So anyway, I went on his show because I was opposed to the first Iraq War, and

he said "What, why did you sign that letter?" And I literally said, "I don't

know, why did I sign that letter?" An then he got a little bit thrown off, and

the guy who he had on who was very opposed to this group that was the anti-Iraq

War was like a wacko. And so I seem perfectly normal so that went pretty well.

But I did notice some things, in Fox there were attractive women in knit

dresses, and they seem sort of important, and I would introduce myself, and I

didn't know their names and they were very annoyed that I didn't know their

names. Because many of the women political experts are very attractive women

which was then is 01:30:00still the case.

But one of the shows with O'Riley, I heard that this very low level employee, it

was her birthday. So, Bill wanted a cup of coffee. So she came on the set with a

cup of coffee and I said, "Bill, it's her birthday today". So what could he? He

didn't even know she existed. His coffee appeared cause he wanted it, but he

made him say, happy birthday [laughs].

And I was asked to go on another time, and I didn't know why the producer was

hysterical that I wouldn't go, and she really wanted me to go. And it turns out

she was the woman that came forward, that had been horribly harassed; the last

one in a long line of harassers. So that's why she was so -- and I don't know,

there's a certain energy that people who have been victims have that I can tell.

And they would often come to discuss some issue. Not that 01:31:00issue but I knew what

they really wanted to do was talk about that issue.

But the other thing is that New York just passed a bill, adult survivors of

sexual abuse by persons in positions of authority. And when I first went to the

Senate, all the assembly members in the Senate went to Albany Medical Center to

get a physical. I was like, why are we getting special treatment? I thought, why

doesn't everyone get a physical?

Well, I found out because senators and so many people were not necessarily

dropping dead in their seats, but there's a lot of older people, but they wanted

to have everyone's medical records in case they had to be brought there for

treatment while they were in Albany. So I went to get my physical assessment and

everything and talk about, yeah, you know all the things. Mental health, HIV,

the list goes on and on, 01:32:00 HPV.

So, I am sitting on the examining table with the doctor and telling him my

health history and all of a sudden, I felt an erect penis pushing up against me

and I did exactly what textbook, I made believe it wasn't happening. I just --

like it couldn't be happening, but it was happening. And when I went back to my

office, I immediately told my council about it.

So, I did tell someone right away and then I raised it in therapy, in a group

therapy, I brought it up. And then when I left office, I was on the board of the

anti-violence project but nearly at a fundraiser for them, I might tell a story

about what happened in the parking lot at the gay bar and at this particular

fundraiser, I started to tell that 01:33:00story and I said, wait, I wanna tell you a

different story.

And I told that story, and the executive director -- and I said, I've always

regretted that I didn't go up and confront him because I'm sure he's doing it to

other people and it escalates. And I didn't do it, so shame on me. Anyway, she

said, I'll go with you.

So when this bill passed, I called her, she's [inaudible]. I said, I'm gonna go,

I'm gonna go do it, I'll do it publicly because I can, because anything that I

could be shamed about and that I might even feel shamed about, my way to deal

with it is to just yell it out kind of. And then other people, I feel like it

might give them courage too to do it and why can't I -- I'm able to do it. I'm

very grateful for that gift.

And so of course I don't talk about my 01:34:00addictions. [laughs] Of course it's on

film for the world, but I'm very selective about who I tell, and sometimes I

tell someone that I think needs to hear it. So not only do I recruit people to

be open about their queerness, but I sometimes recruit people who I think they

need the help of a support group to deal with an addiction problem. So that's

very important.

That said, so I've moved twice since then, and I kept his name and the papers

and I knew exactly where they were. And in the most recent move, I had no idea

what boxes they were in. This move was a very bad experience in the middle of

the pandemic. And I looked and I looked, and I finally found it. And so I know,

now I have his name and he's still in Albany and he's still practicing so I can

still -- I don't know what I'm gonna do with it. Whether I'm gonna go see him

first. I don't know what I'm gonna do.

But I'm gonna do something with it 01:35:00because -- this is the other thing,

Republicans didn't let Democrats have hearings, but they let me have forums,

which for all intents and purposes were exactly like hearings. They filmed them

and witnesses, just no other senators would ever go to them because there was

controversial topics. One of them was on survivors of childhood sexual abuse,

and story after story after story. And yeah, this is not absolutely true, but

it's sort of a kind of thing, that men are so angry and would yell at me, why

isn't this bill passed? And the women would usually weep. And as an anger and a 01:36:00sadness, two of my big emotions, I understand that.

But it turned out also my counsel Mark had been the victim, he recovered the

memory, he was the victim, horribly victimized by a priest, horrible. Like taken

away to a cabin with other boys, and they would all be afraid he was gonna have

them sleep with him, and he would take them to porn stores, just terrible,

terrible. And he's so bad that he was defrocked before it was being done, but it

was very rough for Mark to deal with it.

And the gift is that because he was there, he helped me a lot to have these

things because these stories needed to be told. But he went to the priest to the

cemetery where he was buried, and he was standing by his grave and his nose

started to bleed and he never had a nosebleed 01:37:00 before.

So anyway, the democratic assembly member who carried my bill with the one year

window of opportunity to report in addition to going forward, her son had been a

victim of abuse. So now interestingly she had a daughter who was a lesbian, but

she was against marriage. Anyway, but she kept weakening the bill and weakening

the bill, and she was very upset. She'd come to the me and I would say, "Did

they tell you it would pass if you weakened it?" And she said, "no," so I said,

"Why are you weakening it?" Maybe if something was gonna pass. 01:38:00Because it's a

whole story about how parity for mental health got passed, which I may rush

through later on but

I said, "Marge, why are you doing that?" And the most vocal opponent in the

assembly who, I'm Pollyanna, I never think anyone's ever doing anything wrong.

He turned out he was horrible, everybody who had worked for him, he had to not

run for re-election. He was --nand then I realized why they were all opposed to

it, because of the statute of limitations. If you eliminated that for this

crime. There were so many of these guys, maybe women too, but guys that were

liable to be -- and that's why they were blocking it.

And I also think, spoiling my book, that marriage, when marriage finally did

pass. I believe that Governor Cuomo went to the cardinal and said to the

cardinal, you know what you let marriage pass, I'll 01:39:00never let this bill go

through. And conveniently the cardinal was out of town when marriage passed and

the bill went nowhere until in the Senate the Democrats had a majority large

enough so that even if the governor vetoed it, they could override his veto and

that's how it got done. No, I don't know that's true. Like I don't know that

Michelle Obama at the breakfast table story is true, but I believe that that was

that he made that deal.

So anyway, parity for mental health not to sell this. You know, when you're in

the minority, you really have to can't do like a lot of bills. Because when I

was in the majority, I just shoveled out bills for two years. I just, I passed

more bills in the assembly health committee. So he couldn't get -- he couldn't

keep up with me because --"We can't pass because the Republicans won't do it".

Well, I was literally shoveling out these bills.

Anyway, I'm still a minority and I wanted parity for mental 01:40:00health and in New

York was called Timothy's Law And every day on the floor of the Senate, you

know, there'd be like 10, 20 pieces of legislation that we would vote on and my

council and I we always we did our homework, and I knew what I was gonna vote

yes and no on and why. But I would pick out one bill, and make it about

Timothy's Law because it had to be germane to the issue at hand what the bill

was addressing.

So say it was a veterans bill, I would stand up and I would say, you know,

"Veterans, they deserve respect and of course we should provide this benefit.

But you know, when a veteran passes away in the line of duty, people in the

family are very sad and they can get depressed, but unfortunately they can't get

any help because we haven't passed Timothy's Law".

And it became like a guessing game, people try to guess which bill it was. I was

gonna do 01:41:00that on, and usually it wasn't the one they thought, but I did that

every day, every, every day that I was there, I did it and finally it passed,

and it just didn't have enough behavioral health and didn't have substance abuse

treatment, that was to come later. But at least it had parity for general mental

health and as a consumer, although my insurance did cover it, but not all

insurance covered it.

So anyway, he had a press conference and he invited me to it. And never, ever,

ever, ever, ever, ever did the Republicans when the bill passed, invited a

Democrat to stand with them. And I was invited with three other -- well Joe

Bruno and three other Republican senators who ostensibly where, you know, the

powers that wanted the bill 01:42:00passed, and there was me.

And he really had to, you know, he, he said thanks to Tom Duane basically. Not

thanks to Tom Duane being so annoying, but you know it worked. And that's how I

got things done and all that, I just did things differently. You know, I just --

I would figure out some way to get it done and that was a good one, and it got

the job done so.

MF: Well I wonder if that's not a good place to stop for today--

TD: For all of our mental health.

MF: I just also love that story because it really shows your tenacity.

TD: Nothing if not. Some would say stubborn, I would say dogged, determined, and

tenacious. Yes, thank you. It's sometimes 01:43:00 stubborn.

MF: Well, that's a good quality too. Well, I just want to say thank you again

for meeting with me and hopefully we can do this again and talk a little bit

about marriage. Yes, because it's a tragedy and a cele --, it's everything.

MF: It's a big story.

TD: And it's Andrew Cuomo too. It's got everything.

MF: Well we have to do another one of these. So thank you again.

TD: It was well, you know, well, I -- I went to a reunion. I took a picture of

me holding this sign because it was three classes because of the pandemic and I

left in '75. I finished over two of my courses about class of '76, but it took

me until '77 to complete those two courses.

So, it was perfect for me, and I was a griffin, so, I did know students from

'77, which was the thing, I think I love being in griffin, which is a residence

hall counselor. I really loved that that duty or whatever -- wasn't -- 01:44:00 didn't

feel like work. Let's just say that. It was, it was great.

But I did feel out of place in the beginning and then, you know, as I did in the

Senate, I just, I just made it comfortable in my own way. I made it comfortable,

and a lot of it was about revealing things about myself which sort of opened the

door for them to reveal things too. So I may come back to some more reunions.

MF: If you do you should -- I hope you'll call me.

TD: Oh 100% yes. Are you kidding? Yes, absolutely. Well, I did talk about you, I

said I'm here to do an interview with Mary Foltz. I said, I can't believe it.

She's a lesbian feminist and gender studies in the English department and she

has tenure. Because when I asked if you had tenure, and you said, "yes I have

tenure," 01:45:00I almost fell out of my seat. I couldn't -- at Lehigh, what? So, but

it's not a bit -- I mean they're better, but there's still a lot of work that

needs to be done here, well everywhere. But you know, it starts from the conservatives.

But anyway, I had my picture taking holding the sign, and then I -- the

President was watching the whole thing. So I did -- I nod and walked over to

him, and I said, "Can I have a picture with you?" Because my older brother is

very active in the alumni association, and he was on the board here. And if he

goes around, you know, there's a traveling show with other graduates to help

alumni to loosen up their checkbooks.

And so, I made sure that I had that picture and I sent them to him just to prove

that I was here because I had never come before. Maybe Lehigh/Lafayette game

from time to time back -- I told you in '85 I think 01:46:00when the Ethan Felson tried

to start something but-- and I didn't come for the game, I came to be

[inaudible]. Like you want to go to the Lehigh/Lafayette game. Yes, absolutely.

So anyway--

MF: Well, we will schedule another interview, and again, thank you so much. So

glad that you came to visit us at Lehigh.

TD: [goes to shake hands] We'd better do that first right. Remember gloves?