Arnold Delin June 16, 2014

An Interview with Arnold Delin, June 16, 2014

SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is June 16, 2014; interview with Arnold Delin. Could we go back, how much you know about your family as far back as you know? It gives us a pattern to see how you got to where you were.

ARNOLD DELIN: I can tell you where my parents came from. They were refugees from Poland and from that area. I don't exactly know where, but within the area of where the Jewish people emigrated from Poland. Somehow our relatives brought them here, some settled in Brooklyn. Some settled in Massachusetts, some in this neck of the woods.

SC: Do you know any of their names and anything about what they did?

AD: My father was a peddler I guess, whatever work he was able to get.

SC: What was his name?

AD: Simon Delinsky. Then when I got a job in this country, I worked on Wall Street for a sponge company, I think I told you that, and actually they were German Jews and the Jewish word is poshnisht [Yiddish for it shouldn't happen], they thought certain things about the Jewish people, so they shortened my name to Delin. It was more Americanized.

SC: Can you tell me anything about your mother, where she was from and what her name was?

DOLORES DELIN: Sarah Rubin.

AD: One was Rubin. I don't know her exact name. One of my sisters was Rubin, so I can imagine it was Rubin. She came from Poland, the area where they did not like Jews and got out of there and came into Brooklyn. Then they spread them out as they usually do, they don't put them all in one area.

DD: Can I interject?

SC: Sure.

DD: His mother and father were married before. They came over from the old country. His father lost his first wife. His mother lost her husband. They had children when they met. He had a daughter and she didn't have any children. Sarah was his daughter right?

AD: Sarah was my mother's daughter.

DD: So they brought children to the marriage, and then they had two children, 00:03:00Arnold and Arnold's sister Mildred who is older than him. Miriam was his father's daughter. They lived in Nashua, New Hampshire.

SC: Do you have any memories of Nashua, New Hampshire?

AD: I remember I went to school there. I grew up and went into the army. When I came back, my mother wanted me to marry a Jewish girl. I had a Jewish sister who lived in Brooklyn, and I spent a couple weeks there and met Dolores there. One thing led to another, I checked her bank account to make sure everything was all right.

DD: He worked in a grocery store in Nashua as a young boy. Do you mind telling 00:04:00them about your experiences in the grocery store?

AD: Well, people used to come in, they wanted a ripe tomato, so they would squeeze a tomato because they liked it soft, it didn't make any difference. Brockwins is a chain grocery store like the A&P. I worked in a grocery store. I mixed a lot. The Jewish community was small, but I mixed a lot with the non-Jewish kids. Working in the store, I met a lot of non-Jewish people. So that's how I spread out throughout my early life, so to speak.

DD: This was during the days of the rationing.

AD: The rationing, you would have coupons and points. I had to make sure certain 00:05:00people, especially Jewish people, would get their fair share of groceries with or without the points. We got along pretty good. There was very little anti-Semitism. There was anti-Semitism all over, but because my father was a peddler, we got to know a lot of the non-Jewish people.

SC: Can we back up for a second? Tell me your full name and your birth date.

AD: My full name is Arnold. The original name was Abraham, then when I got a job with the Americanized sponge company, he was a German Jew. It didn't go right to have a Jewish name so I had to cut my name short. Arnold from Abraham and 00:06:00Delinsky to Delin. I was born in 1925. 75 and 14, so I'm 89.

SC: So your dad, did he go by the name Delinsky?

AD: Yeah. Simon Delinsky.

SC: So, were you born in Nashua, or were you born in Brooklyn?

AD: I was born in Nashua.

DD: His family lived in Nashua. They never came to Brooklyn. His sister got 00:07:00married, and she lived in Brooklyn. His mother was ill. She asked him when he came out of the service to move to Brooklyn to be with his sister so that he could be in a Jewish element.

AD: She was afraid of marrying a non-Jew.

DD: Unorthodox for a Jew to marry a non-Jew. In fact, he did have a brother, Phillip, who was older than him, who did marry a non-Jew. The parents sat shiva [period of formal mourning in Judaism] for him and never saw him again. So it was very important in his mother's mind that he marries a Jew.

AD: Mother and father, everybody. One of the things that were a no-no in a community was mixed marriage.

SC: In most cultures in the United States. So when did you go down to Brooklyn? How old were you when you moved down with your sister?

DD: He was about 22/23.

SC: When you moved down there, how were you employed? Where did you work?

AD: Sponge company. America's Sponge Shammy Company.

DD: They were located near Wall Street and he worked there. That's when we met.

SC: How did you meet?

AD: She brought me lunch.

DD: I was working and I would catch the train--

AD: Everybody used to meet for breakfast in the morning, and we would wait for the train. If you're lucky you got the express and it headed to New York quick. If not, you'd get the local.

DD: That's where we met.

AR: And that is where I met so many other people.

SC: How old were both of you?

DD: I was 18; Arnold had to be 22. We were married the following year and he was 24.

SC: So did you have any other jobs besides the grocery store and the sponge company?

DD: Yes he did. He got a job when we got married, within a year I was pregnant. 00:10:00He quit the sponge company because they wanted him to travel and he didn't want to be on the road. So, he got a job at the post office. He worked nights. And then he got a job; he opened up a fruit store. I had a girlfriend whose brother was in that business and they went out together.

AD: 23rd Street, Jewish neighborhood.

DD: One day, I was pregnant and went down to keep him company, and a woman came into the store and she said to him, check the melons.

AD: She wanted a super ripe melon.

DD: He went into the back room and brought it out to her. I said what are you doing? He said I took it to the ripening room. He took a hammer and hit it.

AD: That was on Avenue J, Ocean Avenue. You got the train coming to New York.

DD: And then my father was a contractor. He made ladies blouses and clothes. He needed help in the place, so Arnold came down and worked for him.

SC: In Pennsylvania?

DD: We were in Brooklyn and my father had two shops there. But then he went bankrupt.

AD: He had another partner that didn't want to work, so I figured that wasn't 00:12:00going to work for me so I got another job. I had to work in the Bronx. From the Bronx, I moved to Pennsylvania. I had another job there.

DD: Before he worked for my father, he worked for a dress manufacturer, children's communion dresses. Do you want to hear a story?

SC: Absolutely.

DD: He was selling, a very young guy was selling, and he wanted to have breakfast in this restaurant and there was an empty seat next to this woman. He sits down next to her and they start talking. "What do you do?" He says he is selling and has to meet with this woman, and it's going to be really hard to get an order and he really needs an order.

AD: She happened to be the woman I had to see. She said come upstairs; I'm the woman. She was tough because she bought for all the stores; she was a head buyer. Just like dumb luck, I hit the right button and it came out well.

DD: He got a big order, and then when the order came into the manufacturers house, the manufacturer didn't like her. He told him the hell with her I'm not shipping out.

AD: He always used to haggle with them and she said, "you don't like it, you don't get the order." So he said I quit, leave it alone. It was a big order.

DD: It was a big order and he worked on commission so at lunchtime he went down and got on the phone and he tried to hide his voice and he threatened them. He 00:14:00said you better send the mercandise in or I'm going to report you to the Business Bureau. He came back and the place was bustling getting ready to ship, because he was working on commission.

AD: Children's dresses and communion dresses.

DD: Then I worked at 498 7th Avenue. I worked for a buying house and that whole building, there were manufacturers in there.

AD: The garment industry.

DD: He got a job with one guy and he did well and left him and referenced and went to the next and got a job with the next guy. One year we had to fill out two pages of employment for the IRS. He kept changing. And then my father said, come on and work for me.

SC: Were these contractors in these years that you were working for?

DD: They were manufacturers. In those days they were all manufacturers. There was no such thing as contractors.

AD: Actually, the definition of a manufacturer is they did not have salespeople. The salespeople would get the merchandise. Sometimes it was a combination; sometimes the manufacturer did have people who would sell for them.

DD: The difference between a manufacturer and a contractor. A manufacturer buys the fabric, sells the fabric, and gets the fabric, designs it. A contractor sews.

SC: So there wasn't a differentiation back then?

DD: In the first early days, there was no such thing as a contractor. Everybody was a manufacturer. Everybody manufactured. Then, they found out that it would 00:16:00be more profitable for them if they had somebody do all the sewing and they didn't have the headaches of the workers, and the labor force and so on. They would farm it out to someone else and say, "here is my fabric, and here is the pattern." Some places did the cutting. Isn't that right?

AD: Yes, some would cut for the manufacturer and give it to the contractors, who didn't have cutters in their employment.

DD: Yes, some contractors had cutters and some contractors did not have cutters. So it was all kinds of what the manufacturer wants from you. One contractor would go into the market and get many manufacturers to work for. He didn't work for one. It was possible he worked for more than one.

AD: He would cut the goods for one manufacturer and ship it to different 00:17:00factories. Factories were big; they would probably hire 30 to 40 people for the sewing machines to sew. They didn't do any cutting. But then as they expanded, the factories got bigger and they did their own cutting, their own sewing, and then they started shipping to stores and what not.

DD: In fact, Arnold eventually became a contractor. They would cut and if there was any fabric leftover, they would make what they call overcuts. And they would sell it themselves to make some pocket money. That's how that market came about. You know, discounted clothes. Because the contractors, whatever excess they had, they would sell.

SC: Outlets?

DD: Well the factories, they would open up the door and you could come in and buy a couple of shirts. I remember one woman came in, she was a very fancy lady, 00:18:00and she looked at the label and she didn't like the label. So Arnold said to her, "where do you usually shop?" She shopped in Saks Fifth. So he went back and took a label and put it on the blouse. She was very happy. Then there was another industry, a trucking industry that just--

AD: It was interstate trucking; they controlled all the trucking. A certain element that controlled it. A certain element. They would deliver the goods to the contractors. They would deliver it one day then ship it back at night and pick up the finished garment and bring it back to the manufacturer. The manufacturer shipped it.

DD: That element was more controlled by . . .

SC: So it was a different ethnicity?

DD: Yes.

SC: This was so helpful to me, because we had been talking around sort of how 00:19:00the process changed over time.

AD: Whom have you been interviewing besides me?

GE: Like Milton Sheftel, Irwin Salitsky.

AD: (inaudible). There was ILG, International Ladies Garments. Sheftel was the Amalg--

GE: I don't think he was either because he did the rags.

SC: But since we talked with you the first time, we have been asking people, were they involved with the manufacturers. So thank you.

DD: And then after, there were so many contractors spread out in Pennsylvania. 00:20:00They all ran to Pennsylvania because the unions. The manufacturers were unionized in Manhattan. The contractors were just mom and pop opening up a shop with sewing machines and they started sewing.

AD: Then they start to organize the workers. So then the factories became organized. Some ran away, some went from the North to the South, where unions weren't accepted at that time. Eventually they did. Then the imports started coming when the manufacturers found it was cheaper to have goods made overseas. Then that's how it started expanding from overseas to America.

DD: When they had all the contractors that started, then they realized that they needed a voice to speak as one. So there were four hundred members at one time. Instead of each one making a contract with Joe for a dollar and this one for 50 00:21:00cents, they had one voice and spoke in unison.

AD: The unions started to organize the workers. Once they organized the workers, they had the manufacturers by the you know what, because if they didn't become a union shop, they couldn't get their goods made. It was always a fight between non-union and union. The shirt companies were in the union. They were in the amalgamated union, the dress and ladies sportswear and stuff like that. That's the type of merchandise. And they were in the International Ladies Garment.

DD: The dresses I think also were Amalgamated, weren't they?

AD: They were mixed.

DD: And what had happened was, when they formed the Atlantic Apparel Contractors Association, and then they had Arnold be the spokesperson for the contractors.

AD: We joined the association and then together we were able to get a better contract. Then we got involved with the trucking industry, which were our partners at that time. Certain element and what not.

DD: Not only were they able to speak to the union as one voice, but if you had a manufacturer and if you were the contractor, and your manufacturer decided he didn't want to pay you, then he would be the one that would go into the manufacturer. The manufacturer would say, oh they sewed all the pockets on inside-out.

AD: They would use an excuse.

DD: Or put the wrong color buttons, or whatever they could to get out of paying the contractor. Then he would negotiate between the manufacturer and that particular contractor. So they were the negotiating factor for the contractors in this area in Pennsylvania.

AD: Well we spread out. We started from New York, in Brooklyn, and Jersey. When they started going to Pennsylvania, they were running away from the unions. Eventually, the unions caught up. They got to the contractors through the manufacturer. Once the manufacturer was organized, either they came to union shops, or they wouldn't get the work.

SC: So do you have any memories of those early years and then we'll switch over to the business side.

AD: What's that?

SC: Do you have memories of your early years in the business and your life? Just in general, any stories?

AD: I got a job with her father in her father's- no, that was-- I got a job working for a manufacturer, then I met her father who worked for a children's 00:24:00dress manufacturer. That's how he became organized. At first they weren't organized, then he became organized. Then I met Dolores somehow or other. We met on a train going into New York. One thing led to another and we started dating and got married. Her father had a children's dress factory.

SC: What was the name of the dress factory and the children's goods?

AD: I'm trying to think of what it was.

DD: I too don't remember my father's business, what it was. It was located in Brooklyn and he worked for a company by the name of Judy Kent.

AD: They were amalgamated.

DD: They made children's, when I say children's, I'm talking about 1 year olds, 2 year olds. They made little skirts and blouses like doll clothes. I remember 00:25:00my daughter was born then and he brought home a little skirt, all accordion pleating and little blouses. That was my father. Judy Kent wanted my father to move to Pennsylvania because that was a trend. My father was in Brooklyn. His factories were in Brooklyn and they wanted my father to move to Pennsylvania. And my father said, "Pennsylvania?"

AD: They wanted to run away from that time. The unions weren't organized yet in Pennsylvania. So one thing led to another then eventually we moved.

DD: So they moved- So my father wouldn't go and that was his demise. My father went bankrupt, and he lost his business. Arnold was looking for work and knowing that he came from a small community, I suggested that we make the move anywhere 00:26:00out of New York, because I felt that New York was not the place for us. In fact, I suggested we go to Japan. At that time because that was after the war and the Japanese were starting their needle trade and they were advertising for people. We were young; I said why don't we go. He said you have to be crazy; I'm not going to Japan. I said we have a ten-year plan. He said no, no. I'll look for a job out of New York. We looked in the papers and there was a job in Schuylkill Haven in a lingerie firm and he came out and he called me up. He said they'll give me the job, I have a job, but they won't give me a contract. What shall I do? I said take the job, because you're so terrific that we'll be okay there. So 00:27:00that's how we came here.

AD: Manufacturers didn't want to commit themselves because they were still running away from the union. So one thing led to another... So I worked there during the week and came home on weekends. Then enough was enough, either you move--

DD: Well I was pregnant with our second child, and I didn't want to make the move until I had the baby. So he would commute--for a year he commuted, and then-

AD: Friday afternoon I would catch the bus and come home and then to get back to the factory I would go back late Sunday evening to open up the factory early Monday morning to make sure they got started properly. I lived at the YMCA, 5 dollars or 6 dollars a week. It was a different type of living. I met a lot of 00:28:00non-Jews, as I got involved with the community.

SC: And that was here already in Pottsville?

DD: He was here in Pottsville; he lived in Pottsville. The job was in Schuylkill Haven which is just a little town nearby and he lived at the Y. He ate at the local restaurant where he met the Jewish people. He had friends here before I came, he had made some acquaintances.

AD: It made it easier on her.

SC: About what year was that?

DD: [19]55. That was 1955. We didn't have any money and my girlfriend's father was the head of the International Jewish Association, the union. He knew that we were moving and he knew that we didn't have any funds, so he gave us $500 to buy 00:29:00a stove and a refrigerator and to help with the down payment on our house. So we took the kids, loaded the car up and drove here, and we bought this house. Not this house, we bought a house on Howard Avenue. That's where we lived. He worked two shifts, day shift and night shift.

AD: And weekends. Seven days a week I was working.

DD: He's a hard worker.

SC: At the same place?

DD: He was the manager of that particular factory and so he had a day shift and a night shift.

AD: During the Christmas season, I got a job with the government working at the post office. That's when we lived in Brooklyn.

SC: You are a hard worker. And that gives me shivers because that is the American dream. You come here and someone helps you out and you get started from nothing.

AD: What happened to your first interview? Did you lose the papers?

GE: What happened was we still had it on the computer, on the video, and it got corrupted, it got bad.

DD: This man, his name was Irwin Horowitz, lent us $500 and we paid him back slowly but surely. Many years later, we were at a function and he said to Arnold and said I want to show you something. He pulled out the last letter that we wrote him thanking him. He carried it around in his pocket. He says you have no idea, in my position, how many people I have helped out during my lifetime. And nobody has ever thanked me or paid me back. And he carried it in his wallet, this letter. And we were well advanced already in years already when this happened.

SC: We didn't hear this story before, so this is beautiful.

DD: That's how we were able to get to Pottsville, because my father was bankrupt. He didn't have any money to help us out, and we didn't have any other way of making the means. They weren't going to pay for setting up our house. But they did pay for the movers to get to Pennsylvania. That's how we ended up in Pottsville. Then, he had the business, he was a manager for many years, and then they wanted to sell it.

GE: About how many years? 10? 15?

DD: I would say less than that. And then he bought the factory and he ran it for 00:32:00a long time.

AD: It was a union factory. We moved to Schuylkill Haven, there weren't any shops there. I was the first union shop that came to that area, which the other manufacturers and others didn't enjoy that particularly because they knew sooner or later they would get organized with the union.

DD: And you were the first one that hired black employees.

[switches tape]

SC: Today is June 16, 2014; interview with the Delins.

GE: So we were talking about Ethel Maid, and Arnold, do you want to just tell us 00:33:00a little bit about that business in terms of the products; what kind of products you had made?

AD: Ethel Maid, when the non-Jewish people died, they didn't bury them in a tallis...and Ethel Maid made shrouds, they made men's suits, with a worn-seam in the back, and everything else. And Jewish people, actually, you weren't supposed to bury them in suits.

DD: I confused you because Ethel Maid was a shroud company. That was above the factory where...

AD: They made burial gowns.

DD: ...he worked. I gave you the wrong name.

GE: Oh, oh, oh. Do you remember what was the name of the factory where you managed?

AD: Peekaboo. That was mine.

DD: What was the name of the factory that hired you, do you remember their name? The one that hired you, the lingerie firm that hired you? -- It will come to you.

GE: So Peekaboo, is that what you named it?

AD: The name of the company, I named it.

GE: Okay, and tell us about the kinds of products you made there.

AD: We made ladies lingerie. Like petticoats, slips.

DD: And then you made blouses.

AD: Then they switched to blouses, ladies blouses, children's blouses.

DD: When he would go into the market, he would see, he would go to the manufacturers, and he would try to sign up any manufacturer to see what they needed, what he could sew--

GE: What he could sew and what they needed.

DD: Right, so it would be lingerie, it would be blouses.

GE: Okay, and your workers were flexible enough that you were able to do that.

AD: Well a sewer was a sewer. We trained, we had a forelady. Different products had different types of sewing. And fabric was different also. So you had to have different equipment--

DD: Arnold, wasn't the lingerie company called Marvel Made?

AD: Ethel Maid.

DD: No, underneath called Marvel Made was a lingerie company, Ethel Maid was upstairs?

AD: No, Ethel Maid owned the building. She was-- Marvel Made was a manufacturer at the time.

DD: Yeah, for the lingerie. Marvel Made was the name of the company.

GE: Okay, and when you owned it, about how many people worked there?

AD: I had about 50 people. 50-60 people. And I worked a day shift and a night shift.

GE: And were most of the workers - what kind of workers? So you had most were sewers, and what other kinds of functions?

AD: Well I had- I was fortunate enough to have a man come in and we would get the piece goods, he would cut the fabric into the patterns. The manufacturer would send us the piece goods with a pattern, what he wanted to be made, and we'd spread the goods and he'd cut it out and we would give it over to the sewers.

GE: Okay, and I think you had talked now...Want to tell us a little more about excess? Were you able to do much excess producing?

AD: No, I usually worked for one manufacturer, and if he couldn't give me enough work, sometimes we would take work from another manufacturer as a fill in.

GE: Right, right, but separately- okay, so one thing is who is your main manufacturer?

AD: Oh, I don't remember that.

GE: Okay, okay, there were many, a long time ago. And you had mentioned before 00:37:00about with the production, that one thing you would try to do is that once you met that amount that you needed to get from that material- the overcuts, right.

AD: They would ship in the goods. They would send us in an order, spread so many yards of goods, sometimes with piece goods, you'd have extra yardage. Sometimes the manufacturer said hey cut it all or they'd say hold it for another cutting later on. So you had to account for the piece goods. Sometimes it's the manufacturer, some would keep the excess piece goods for themselves and not report it. I'd report it as it was.

GE: Okay okay, so you really didn't have, really didn't do that, okay. And do you want to tell us about your relationship with your employees?

AD: They worked for me. I mean either they produced or they didn't produce. We 00:38:00had a good relationship. There were mostly non-Jewish people, all non-Jewish. Once in a while, you might have someone Jewish who was a sewer. We had a good relationship, I mean, once you get organized with the union, you follow the union contract and that was it.

GE: And I think you said that you were the first one locally to hire someone who was not white, a Black person.

AD: Yes, that came and I had one working for me. She was an excellent worker, and she had a couple of- her sister moved to the area and brought her friend along, and one became three. And some of my workers were not too happy because I hired a black person. But they got along once they got to know them, they were 00:39:00excellent workers and they produced, broke the ice so to speak. And another factory hired a black--there weren't that many blacks in the Lehigh area.

DD: Very few black families.

AD: In the first place, there wasn't any place for them to be, they were very isolated.

SC: Did anyone ever talk about from the coal regions the fact that some of the groups were angry about African Americans because of some of the strikes because they were strike-brokers?

AD: No.

SC: That was a tangent, but its Labor History Sue asking questions.

AD: No. Each of the coal industry labor was different to the other manufacturers in the fabric industry. Each one had their own.

GE: While you were in the business, as the years went on, because it was going 00:40:00South, because a lot of the time...was it getting harder and harder?

AD: As the unions started organizing the factories, they couldn't compete so the manufacturer, who was still non-union, saw you were not giving goods to those who were not union-shop, he started opening up shops down South. And there's one open, another followed, followed, and then it was a lot of non-union manufacturers down South, and that's how a lot of the work fell to the way, from the union shops to the non-union shops.

DD: The trend was after they saturated Pennsylvania, and then- with non-union 00:41:00shops, then when the union came in to organize them, now the manufacturers had to look for another way out, so they started going down South where there weren't any non-union shops.

AD: New England had a lot of union shops, and everyone filtered like she just said, they filtered away from the North to the South.

GE: Right, right. The manufacturers that you produced for, were they always union?

AD: To have a union shop, it had to be union manufacturers.

GE: Okay, and as the years went on, I guess you opened it in the '60s, '70s, something like that? Did it start becoming, was it noticeably that it was harder and harder each year to get enough business?

AD: We were able to get the business, even some of the non-union manufacturers, when they wanted--if you made a good quality garment, they would pay the price. 00:42:00They were flexible.

GE: Right, okay, so--

AD: Actually, it all filtered away.

GE: Okay, so you're saying, that happened over a long period of time?

AD: Half a dozen years or so.

DD: It's happened little by little. What happened was, I would say in the '60s, things started going bad. Things would get harder and harder. You would go in looking for work and couldn't find work and the contractors are hustling in the city looking for work.

AD: You'd go into New York if you needed work and you would take it at a lower price, if you didn't need work, either they would pay you or you didn't take it. If you produced a good garment, then you had a relationship with the manufacturer. Because the manufacturer didn't have the solace. He didn't want to get involved with the union, so he had factories like myself. Ship the piece 00:43:00goods in, we cut the garments, we cut the fabric up and everything else, ship the finished garments to the manufacturer.

DD: It got really bad when they started shipping overseas.

GE: That was the '70s then, correct?

DD: Yeah, and when they moved and started working overseas that's when it really got bad and that's when they didn't, the manufacturers no longer made the fabric here. They bought the fabric overseas, had the fabric shipped to a factory overseas, had it cut, and then they would ship them the finished products.

GE: The whole operation--

DD: The whole operation was overseas. So the people that made the machines didn't have any business. The people that made the cloth didn't have any people in it. The people that made the cotton didn't have any business. The thread [manufacturers] didn't have any business. And so, it started breaking down, all the industries that supported this one product, they started getting everything 00:44:00made overseas, and then the manufacturers would then have a representative that would fly over their quality control man, we would call him, that would fly overseas to make sure things were the way that they hoped they would be.

GE: Right, right. The trade association, what were the years of your prime involvement? When you were president. Was that around--

DD: The '70s? Late '60s, early '70s. The guy that started with the association, his name was-- It's on the tip of my tongue.

AD: What happened to all of the notes from before?

DD: They're gone, honey.

GE: We do have some of the notes, so we do have some of the notes, but we just lost the actual interview.

SC: And we want you in the archives.

DD: Mikus. Mikus started with the association, didn't he?

AD: Michus started with the union, and he represented the union at that time, then he broke away and then he started representing the contractors.

DD: He worked with the association. Arnold was on the board of the association, being a contractor, he was part of the board. And then Mikus always would call on Arnold: could you do this for me, could you do that for me? And Arnold became his right hand man. And then when Mikus died, the board said, how about you take over.

GE: And at that point, did you sell the factory?

AD: No, I kept it.

DD: He kept the factory, and my son went into the factory.

GE: Okay, okay, so that's Scott?

DD: Scott.

GE: Okay, and then Scott started running the factory.

DD: Scott started running the factory. Scott went to Textile Institution, so he had a background, and he was brought up in the factory, and he had a background of what it was about. But things started going really bad, and all the factories were closing up one after the other.

AD: You couldn't compete with the union.

GE: Right, right.

DD: They couldn't compete with overseas. And so, we had to close up ours.

AD: The facts are, not that you couldn't compete with the union, it was that you couldn't compete overseas. It was cheaper there.

GE: Right. And about how long, did that- from the time Scott- he became president of the association--

DD: And he still had the factory, he was still running the factory at the same time. Scott, I don't remember. He got out of college, he had a job. And then all of a sudden, it was too much. He [Arnold] couldn't do both, so Scott came in. And I don't remember--

AD: Scott only worked a couple of years, he wanted to get into business for himself.

DD: Five years maybe.

GE: And I am assuming when Arnold was president of the association, that was a job--

DD: Oh, yeah. It was a full time paying job. That's why he just couldn't handle both. He was traveling all over. He was going into Harrisburg, making presentations.

GE: Right. Because they were basically also, besides representing, they were also trying to lobby.

DD: Yes, they were lobbying. They spent a lot of time lobbying--

AD: In Washington.

DD: He was in Washington a lot. He tried to stop exports, and he really tried, but correct me if I'm wrong, Arnold, didn't the union encourage the overseas saying that they should help them out, they're poor nations, and help them out--

AD: At the beginning, the union didn't fight the manufacturers because they 00:48:00figured, well they needed help because they were doing- connected to other industries, in importing and exporting, but then it expanded and--

DD: They got a commission. The union got a percentage on every piece of fabric that came into the United States.

AD: No, that's not so. The union didn't get a commission.

DD: They got a percentage. The union got a percentage.

AD: No, the unions it was a business. They brought it in themselves. Whatever, we're getting this all mixed up, it's ridiculous.

SC: You're doing great. And you know what? A lot of this we didn't hear before.

AD: What's this?

SC: A lot of what you're saying we hadn't heard before. We talked more in some ways about your relationship with your workers, which was wonderful.

AD: You've had to have a relationship with your workers if you wanted them to work for you. I mean when the contract came up, I mean that's where they wanted to get more money and everything else, and they didn't want to go work someplace else.

GE: Right, right. You know, in Allentown, I know that a lot of the contractors were Jewish.

AD: In what?

GE: In Allentown, a lot of the contractors were Jewish. How about in this area, in Schuylkill County?

AD: Very few, I was one of them--well three or four.

GE: Well what kind of ethnicity did the others have? The contractors?

AD: I'll tell you what I told you before. In Allentown, they had Amalgamated Union--

DD: No, honey, she wants to know whether they were Italian, Jewish--

GE: Right.

AD: Very few Jewish people in this area, in the factories. There were a lot of non-Jewish Protestants and Catholics.

GE: Right, but the ones who owned the factories in this area, were they often Italian in this area?

AD: They were mostly somewhat Jewish, the ones who owned the factories.

DD: When you say this area, what do you mean?

GE: Schuylkill.

DD: Schuylkill County had a lot of Jewish owners, but if you go up to Windgap, where his office was, they were mainly, I would say, if you look at it, the 00:50:00majority of his contractors were Italian. They came from Windgap, Roseta.

AD: All in that area up there.

DD: That area there, they were all Italian.

AD: And then up in Wilkes Barre, Scranton, they expanded. And up in that neck of the woods, it was a different type of manufacturer. They made ladies dresses up there, they made ladies sportswear up there. They were more unionized up there because of the coal region, they organized a factory there.

DD: There were so many Italians in the Association that they thought it was primarily Italian, and we were invited to a dinner, and Arnold got up and in Yiddish he made a prayer. And this one Jewish manufacturer sitting at our table started to laugh. He said, "Boy, for an Italian boy, you really speak good Hebrew."

GE: That's funny. I think that's pretty good. I think that's great. I think you 00:51:00gave us really a lot with your business and with things. Do you want to ask them a couple of--

SC: So just a couple of sort of general questions about you. One of them is what do you value most in life?

AD: What's this?

SC: What do you value most in life?

AD: What do I value? Have a good family that you live with, raise your children properly, and everything else. As far as I am concerned, I have children and I come from a Jewish home, and I feel I expect them that when they get older and get married that they will still continue being in a Jewish home. And mixed marriage today is a touchy thing to talk about because a lot of the Jewish 00:52:00families have mixed marriages and visa-versa and whatnot. Sometimes you don't get involved. You know, Allentown has a lot of mixed marriages, New York has a lot of mixed marriages, you stay away from that conversation. I do, anyway.

SC: And also, what has made you feel the most creative or fulfilled personally in your life? Has given you that sense of almost artistry in your life or--

AD: I don't understand the question.

DD: May I answer for him because he always says this to me. Whenever he gets his monthly check from his pension, and from Social Security, he always says, "See, I provided. I am a good provider, and I did well." And this happens every month. 00:53:00This is what I would say--

SC: That gave you satisfaction, that you provided.

AD: Not everybody, people would work, they would get their money from the manufacturers, they get their check and instead of paying payroll, they would go and gamble. You don't go through life that way. Once that happens, you're out of business.

GE: And so many families depend on--

AD: Well, so listen, they worked too--

GE: Exactly.

AD: They wait for that check, and if they work for a contractor or manufacturer, who somehow or other didn't get their money. If the contractor didn't get their money from the manufacturer during the week, Thursday, you had to prepare the payroll, and you didn't have the check, I would have to run into New York or wherever and make sure I brought a check back with me, otherwise, the girls 00:54:00don't get paid. And luckily I had a good relationship with the bank, they might take work with me and give the payroll out. But then it got to the point where I just couldn't do it anymore.

DD: In those days, you didn't have a line of credits like you have now. Your name was your line of credit. So if you go into the bank and Arnold says, "Listen, my check didn't come in, I expect this and that.." So they would then say all right and they would, that would be his line of credit. But in those days, there wasn't a line of credit that you could, it was your name, your reputation.

GE: Right, right.

SC: And we remember, at least I do especially, I think we've talked about this, first of all, how good it was to interview you first. You really set the stage for us with our other interviews. But also, when you talked about your workers and how you would work around their children coming home from school, and just 00:55:00really how, I mean, the women remember you and talk to you.

AD: Well, a small community is different. I think most of the garment factories had a good relationship with their workers. Once the unions get in, naturally the union took control. With the workers, the union stepped in. It's like if people want to work for you, you gotta treat them right.

DD: It's a shame that the industry isn't still here because it gave a lot of opportunities to a lot of people who didn't have an education to support their families. And he had, I know that he had women there, their kids would come in in the summer and he would give them jobs as packers and things like that. And one is a dentist today, one of their girls.

GE: And I think you're right that almost all of them were small businesses.

DD: They were small businesses.

GE: And so you see, when you see face to face--

DD: Yeah, then you know what they are going through and there is no secret. You know what's happening. You know, it's a family business.