Irwin and Claire Salitsky, May 26th, 2011

Interview with Irwin Salitsky, May 26th, 2011

SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is-

GAIL EISENBERG: May 26th.

SCB: Yeah. Today is May 26th, 2011, and we are at an- an interview for the Lehigh Valley Sewing Needle-Trades Oral History Project. That's what we're calling it at the moment. So, would you tell me your full name?

IRWIN SALISTKY: Irwin Salistky, NMI: "No Middle Initial."

SCB: And would you spell it for me just for the future? Because everything I ask, it seems really stupid, it's just for people in the future.

IS: Do you want to read that? It gives you a feeling of the...

SCB: I will after, I can, I will afterwards. Yeah. So would you spell your name?

IS: I-R-W-I-N S-A-L-I-T-S-K-Y

SCB: And also, we are going to be putting you into some kind of personal 00:01:00context. Where were you born? And-

IS: Brooklyn, New York.

SCB: Do you know the street? Do you know the region?

IS: Peck Memorial Hospital, which has been eliminated since. No longer there.

SCB: Do you know where your parents lived when you were born?

IS: Yes, Empire Boulevard, three blocks from where now my grandson lives.

GE: Oh, isn't that something?

IS: I couldn't wait to get out of Brooklyn and he loves it! Course I was four- four years old at the time, and he was- He was an infant. I am- I was four- No, we came here, I was five, he was one. I'm four years older than him.

SCB: And what year did you come?

IS: 1932.

SCB: To- And that was to Allentown?

IS: Pardon?

SCB: Is that your birthday or was that to Allentown?

IS: No, what it is- Not only did my parents or my father come, but a lot of the 00:02:00garment industries for some reason or other formed in 1932. It was a great time to leave the city, because of what you'll read later. And we started with nothing. I remember they- My father couldn't afford a car; his partner, Izzy Weinstein had a car, an old Packard. It was in such bad shape that the door wouldn't stay closed, I remember seeing it, and they had the door tied with a piece of rope around the window frame. They came with my Uncle Morris, who was our family accountant. His- He came from New Jersey and his firm grew into the 00:03:00largest accounting firm in the state of New Jersey.

SCB: What part of New Jersey?

IS: Asbury Park.

SCB: And so, you moved when you were four and your brother was one to Allentown?

IS: We lived on that street, we moved to 231 South West Street. We lived there for ten years until my father could afford to buy a house, which was ten years later, and made their money during the war.

GE: So- So this was an apartment?

IS: It was a four- It was a double unit with an upstairs. There were four- four units on South West Street.

SCB: Do you remember the number?

IS: 231 South West Street.

SCB: 231 South West Street.

IS: Right.

SCB: And where did you live in-

IS: 27th and Washington.

SCB: Oh, the second one? And when you were in Brooklyn, what- what did your father do when-?

IS: He was a cutter.

SCB: He was a cutter.

IS: I educated myself a great deal more than my father did. He never knew how to sew, never cared to learn. He was happy running the cutting room and making markers--that's laying out the patterns for the best yield possible. And he did the paperwork reporting to the manufacturer what the result was of a spread. In other words, the manufacturer had a rough idea of what the yield should be, based on the total yardage that he sent. They would send us the fabric and we 00:05:00would make a marker based on the width and the type of fabric, because the different fabrics had to be done differently. For example, there is such a thing as a one-way pattern where all- it's a print, where all of the patterns had to go in one direction, and that takes more of a yield. There are a lot of tricks to the trade. I'll- Well, I'll go over some of them with you.

SCB: Okay, could we just talk a little bit first about-

IS: Oh sure, go ahead.

SCB: Also, your- Your educational history.

IS: Pardon?

SCB: You- How- Where were you educated?

IS: Educated- I graduated from Allentown High School in 1945. I always had an addiction for flying. So, I was in touch with Parks Air College which is now a 00:06:00part of St. Louis University. And it's in East St. Louis, a shayna [Yiddish for pretty] town you never saw. And this was twenty miles south of East St. Louis. I was a little snot nose kid of 17 and it started July 1st of 1945. It was on a trimester basis. We left, it was funny, we always took a vacation July 4th because that's when the annual vacation for the garment industry was, when the mills were closed and you had a compulsory 2-week vacation. So I got there three 00:07:00days late, because I was up at the Concord, which is in the- in the Borscht Belt.

GE: In the Catskills.

SCB: Yeah.

IS: I left by a Jitney into Penn Station; we had a reservation at Penn Station for a non-stop train into St. Louis. It didn't stop in East St. Louis which is across the Mississippi, I was- East St. Louis is in Illinois. I- They knew I was going to be late. Classes started July 1st, 1945 and I was still, in July 4th, at the Concord chasing the waitresses. But it was a great experience.

One thing about Allentown--and Claire will bare me out--we loved living in 00:08:00Allentown. You may not be aware of some of the reasons, but in 1932, everybody was new. We had a bunch of fellows that I was friendly with, like Jerry Neff for example. When I tell people that he's been a friend of mine for 70 years, they think I'm crazy. They don't even know their next-door neighbor where they live. But what it did- Having a great group of friends, you mature fast. Claire is two years younger than me, but she was in a different clique. I didn't get together with Claire- Well I'll come to that later on. But we were a different group. In 00:09:00other words, when one guy learned how to jitterbug, we all got to learn. And at the time, I was six feet tall like I am today. And believe it or not, I weigh now what I did then. I used to weigh a little over 200 and now I weigh 165. So, I was able to lie about my age and get away with it.

So what had happened--they met me, the grounds- the head groundskeeper met me at the station in St. Louis and brought me to the campus which was in a little village of Cahokia in Illinois. It's a- the scene of a big Monsanto chemical plant. You always got the stink from the chemicals. And what is a kid of 17 do 00:10:00when he doesn't know a soul, never been there before, the first weekend? So I looked up in the telephone book the address of the YMHA or Jewish Community Center. And I got the address and I found out how to get there. I had to take a bus from the campus into East St. Louis, another bus crossing the Mississippi and this, the YMHA, was in West St. Louis. I took another bus there. I had a car which my father sold but really I should have had it there. It annoyed the hell out of me because when my kid brother, who was four years younger, went to 00:11:00college he had a car. I was low man on the totem pole. But anyhow, I go to the YMHA and they had- It was a great deal because Scott Field was an army air base in Illinois about 20 miles from St. Louis. And the Lambert Municipal Airport in St. Louis was a naval training station. They had a lox and bagel deal every Sunday morning for the servicemen who came to the YMHA and they also honored veterans. I'm 17 years old. Nothing- I lied my way all the way through, but I was able to get away with it because I was tall, I even grew a mustache for the 00:12:00occasion. And I come there and who do I see walking in the door? Three of my high school fraternity brothers from Wilkes Barre. We had a high school fraternity in high school, and we had branches in Wilkes Barre, Scranton, Harrisburg, Philadelphia, and we always had conventions.

GE: Is this like AZA?

IS: Well yeah.

GE: That type of thing?

IS: We were competitors. AZA was there at the Jewish Community Center, where we met. And it helped us mature. I was able to lie about a lot of things. In fact, I was dating a girl--gorgeous, 24 years old--she said, "I would never go out with anybody younger than me." But I lied and I got away with it. Anyhow, one of 00:13:00the guys that I met wasMendy [Yiddish name] Rudolph. The name may not mean anything to you, he ended up being a very well-known basketball referee for professional basketball. And he was still in the army. His father was a basketball referee, he came from Wilkes Barre. And there were a couple other guys that I used to see. And I met- we met girls, and I had lox and bagels, and I'll never forget- This is in July, and it's coming up to November, and I made a sob story that we're gonna have spam for Thanksgiving. So I got myself invited to Thanksgiving dinner by one of the girls there. And I- I had a ball, I really 00:14:00enjoyed it. I learned how to fly, I- I had 5 hours solo in an airplane by myself. But as things went along, I was never that studious. I would say I was above average intelligence, but not- nothing super. What I liked about this school was I hated taking a foreign language in high school and it wasn't a requirement. So that sort of cemented why I would go there; plus it was a- an accelerated program, a trimester for three years, at which time you graduated with a Bachelor of Science Degree in Aeronautical Engineering and an A&E 00:15:00Certificate which allowed you to work on airplane engines--I could get a job as a mechanic--and a private pilot's license, that you had to accumulate 25 hours of solo.

So I thought my future was all laid out. But this was in 1945 and it was after the war and my father's business was very good. And I liked it because I went into the factory from age 16 over the summer and I had my own checking account, money wasn't a problem with my family at that time. We had- They had bought a house, took them 10 years but they had finally accumulated enough money to buy 00:16:00this house on 27th and Washington. And I lived there until we got married.

GE: So so, you didn't stay- You didn't graduate from school?

IS: No. I- I found out- They had representatives of the various corporations would come on campus, and what they were offering in salary, I would blow in a weekend. So I said, "What am I doing? I'm going to knock my brains out for what?"

SCB: Couple follow-ups. For the future, "AZA", what- what is that?

GE: It's a Jewish- It's a Jewish-

IS: This was a Jewish high school fraternity. It was- We were competitors with AZA. AZA is still active- active. Sigma Alpha Rho, my fraternity, was mainly out 00:17:00of Philadelphia and a lot of the conventions were there and it was, it was- We had a great time. I- I kept saying how lucky I am, growing up in Allentown, maturing with my friends.

At this time when I came home, Claire lived- I was in 27th and Washington, Claire was in 27th and Greenleaf, down the back alley. I needed some surgery for I had a hernia when I came home, and I wanted to take care of it because I kept it in case I was called up for service, which I didn't want to do, go into the 00:18:00service. When I turned 18 in November of that year, I had to go to Chicago because everybody in Illinois had to go to the recruiting station in Chicago. So that was an overnight train deal. I found that, after all the problems, they didn't want to take me because of a hernia, but it was operable. So I waited 'til I came home and I made- my mother and I made arrangements with a- a urologist in Allentown and I had it taken care of. All of a sudden I'm in the hospital, and I'm lying in bed, and who should come to visit me? Claire. She 00:19:00brought her girlfriend with me- with her because she didn't want to make it too obvious.

CLAIRE SALISTSKY: But I had gone out with you already.

IS: Yeah, I had dated her. Well, some of the detail you'll remember better than I.

SCB: So you weren't ever drafted, even though it went to the Korean War years?

IS: No, no. I got- I got married in '48 and had a child in '49. So I was a- I was a husband and a father and that was that.

CS: We went to Muhlenberg

IS: I went to Muhlenberg for- for 6 months.

CS: No.

IS: Yeah, it was- Wasn't it? Somewhere along three months, whatever.

CS: It was longer.

IS: Claire, of course, was 19. Not even 19, you were-

CS: You went to Muhlenberg and- while I was still in seminary, Moravian Seminary.

IS: Yeah, she went to Moravian Seminary.

CS: You were- You went to Muhlenberg by two years, Irwin.

IS: Yes, two years. Claire was very bright. She had her choice of colleges. Her father was well to do and she could afford any college, but she chose Cedar Crest much to her parents' annoyance, because she didn't want to leave dear old Irwin.

SCB: You know, you and Max Hess both left Muhlenberg.

IS: Max Hess?

SCB: Yes, he came back home from World War II, went to Muhlenberg for a while, and then left Muhlenberg to take over the business.

IS: Max Hess lived up the block from- We lived- She lived on Greenleaf Street and 27th Avenue, he lived on 28th Street and-

CS: And Livingston.

IS: Greenleaf. Not Greenleaf.

CS: Livingston. Max Hess lived on Livingston.

IS: Livingston Street.

GE: Is he a contemporary of yours?

CS: No, he was older.

IS: No, he was a little older.

CS: He- He- He was actually, well he was younger than my father, but they were friends.

IS: Yeah. We had the first two- Max Hess and my father-in-law had the first extra large screen television set in the city of Allentown. It was one of those, not a direct tube that large, it was a projection model.

GE: Oh my goodness.

SCB: Yeah. I was talking about Max Hess Jr., came home and-

CS: No, are you- You're talking about his son.

SCB: Yes, his son. Came home and went to Muhlenberg College and then dropped out.

CS: There were three Max Hesses.

IS: Max Hess was Max Hess Jr., actually. That was his real name. His son was I 00:22:00guess the third.

CS: Tommy.

SCB: Tommy?

IS: Tommy.

CS: Tommy was his son. Tommy was Anne's age.

IS: One thing about growing up in Allentown, you couldn't lie about your age. Everybody knew everybody else, and what they didn't know they tried to dig up. But growing up was great because the Jewish Community Center was very active. I lived on South West Street for ten years, West and Fairview. All I had to do was walk up to Hamilton Street, take a trolley car--they worked- they worked on Hamilton Street--to 6th street, and if I was lazy, I would take a transfer, get a northbound trolley that would leave me off at Chew Street or I could walk four 00:23:00blocks to the center.

GE: Where was it located? 6th and Chew?

IS: 6th and Chew, the old center.

SCB: Right and then that became the Negro Cultural Center?

CS: That's right.

SCB: And now it's the Housing- Housing and Health Center, yeah.

IS: But it was great because they had Sunday afternoon dances; they had a jukebox, and we had an active man, George Feldman, who did a fantastic job of being the director. There were many meetings held, they had a restaurant there for a while, a kosher restaurant. AZA and Sigma Alpha Rho had a meeting room by itself on the third floor.

GE: And this is the 1930s and 1940s?

IS: Yes, in- Well in-

CS: The '30s even. Late '30s into '40s.

IS: So I guess that about sums up my high school, except that, well I might as 00:24:00well swing into getting married. I was- wasn't even 21, but I had sown my wild oats. And Claire was 19 going on 20 in July.

CS: No. How old are you?

IS: I got two years on you.

CS: How old are you?

IS: Eighty-three.

CS: And how old am I?

IS: Eighty-one.

CS: And how long are we married?

IS: Sixty-two years.

CS: Yes, so how old was I?

IS: Nineteen, you were, weren't you? Eighteen.

CS: Yeah, I was 19 that month, two weeks later.

IS: Yeah, you were 18 when we got married July 4th because the mills were closed.

SC: The factories were closed.

IS: And her birthday is July 16th, so she was two weeks short of being 19.Is 00:25:00that right? Okay. We got married in New York because the Temple wasn't built yet and we had a big wedding. Her- My parents and Claire's parents were very well known in Allentown. My father-in-law was chairman of the board of the Center. My father was on the committee that built the Temple and my father-in-law was the chairman of the building committee...

GE: This is which synagogue? Temple Beth El?

IS: Of the new building.

GE: Okay, this is when it was just being built on 17th and Hamilton. When was that built? Right around this time?

CS: I- I would have to think. Anne is going to be 62 in June, correct? So Anne 00:26:00was born in '49--yeah we were married in '48.

IS: We were married in '48.

CS: Anne was born in '49, the Temple was being constructed. And I remember walking, every morning--my father's first stop in the morning was to pick me up, stop at the- and then- I lived- We lived at 18th and Hamilton.

IS: When we got married, Schnitzer built those apartments at 18th and Hamilton on the northwest- the northeast corner, those two separate buildings.

GE: Okay, right by the synagogue? Right by the little synagogue.

IS: Yes, a block away.

CS: And I used to walk up with him. He'd walk me- He'd make me walk every day to the temple and we'd walk through-

IS: We would check the progress of the building.

CS: And then come back at 4:30 and take me back to see what they did during the day.

IS: It was a ball living there because it was a prime apartment. My next- across the hall neighbor was Max Stetner and his father, who was a widower; and Jerry 00:27:00Bright who was a few years older than me and lived across the hall. His mother's and all my friends- We had Anne a year later. They would all come and play with her, because I was the first one married, even though I was the youngest of my immediate group. Murray Goodman, the multimillionaire, still lived with his parents, and Murray was a builder in Florida.

CS: He built Village West. And he built-

GE: Village West is what?

CS: Shopping center, across the street from you know, at Tilghman and Cedar Crest Boulevard.

GE: Oh, oh, oh, where Giant is?

CS: Where the Giant is.

SC: And that's Murray Goodman?

IS: Where the Giant is, yeah. He was a commercial- His father was a commercial builder, but he out-distanced his father.

CS: He made it big time.

IS: And Stanley Finkel lived there, and I mustn't forget Larry Somach, the crazy one--the cheap SOB.

GE: You know, I know the Somach family very well.

IS: He was just married.

CS: He was married the same summer.

SCB: That was Larry Somach?

IS: Larry Somach. Norman grew up with me, his brother, his younger brother. And-

CS: Mrs. Bright only wanted to know which one was my husband? She always saw me with all these guys!

IS: They kept coming in to play with my daughter, 'cause you know, they were all bachelors. And fortunately my daughter--you could wake up in the middle of the night and she was always happy, had a smile, never cried. It was funny when- This was a one bedroom apartment and when we'd go to bed, her crib was in the 00:29:00bedroom with us, and I got a kick out of- We were lying in bed and we'd hear her rustling. Then two little hands would appear on the railing, and then a- a blonde head with real curly hair and big blue eyes would show up. And she just was curious, and she was always that way, even to this day. She would never go and join in playing with anybody until she sat and watched and decided that she wanted to go in because she would never wanted to make a fool out of herself. Even from her childhood days, she was always that way. She went to the right school and thank God they were all right, all right kids.

GE: Your daughter's name?

IS: Anne. Anne Eleanor. And she was born in 1949. I timed it right--they were all two years apart. In '50- '51, Irene Vivian was born. She was the first girl admitted to Lafayette [College] when it became co-ed.

GE: Oh wow.

IS: And was the first girl to be Phi Beta Kappa at Lafayette. Her daughter went to the Johns Hopkins, also Phi Beta Kappa.

CS: And what about Jared, her son?

IS: Her son? Well...

CS: He was Phi Beta Kappa at Wesleyan [University].

IS: Yeah, at Wesleyan, decided he wanted to be a lawyer.

GE: This is still Irene's children?

IS: Irene's children. She had three children. Anne never wanted children. She wanted to travel. And that's why she got divorced, because before they got married, Richard and she agreed they weren't going to have children, but he was an athletic kind of guy. In a pickup basketball game he got elbowed in the neck and he lost his voice. Temporary thing. But he realized how helpless he was because he couldn't even answer the telephone. And they decided to get a friendly divorce. So they got a divorce and he married another Jewish girl.

[Some lost conversation here]-- Paid for the wedding. My father had to pay for his own wedding.

CS: Did you tell Gail where your father met your mother? In Roseland.

IS: In Roseland. In New York. They were both good dancers. Claire's parents unfortunately weren't--I had to push your mother around the floor. But the Salistskys were good dancers.

SCB: Could we move on to your- your- the business and a couple of things to think about: Who started the business? And we sort of have some of that on here, but maybe we should have it together. Did they own or manage the business? How did they become connected to the business? So-

IS: Well, they were partners in New York before they came to Allentown to escape the union. And they started almost at the time that Billera's formed the pants factory in Northampton.

GE: Who- Who's Billera?

IS: Huh?

GE: You said Billera started the pants--who is that, that's a company?

CS: The Billera family.

IS: Four or five brothers that were tailors in Italy. And they started Clyde Shirt, which was the four story building. Clyde Shirt was- My Father and Izzy Weinstein, they were on the first and fourth floor. Universal Pants, there were two brothers who ran that, in the second and third floor. Then, further west, they started- they made only pants, but they started a, a--what the hell's the name of that?

CS: Joey's father?

IS: No. I had it this morning. A clothing business where they made jackets and suits and sport jackets. That was at 21st Street and Main Street in Northampton.

CS: And did you have a plant there too?

IS: When- When- When Weinstein and my father, shortly after they started Clyde Shirt, business was good, so they started Highland Sportswear in Allentown.

GE: So Clyde Shirt was your father and Izzy Weinstein's company?

IS: Right. And they were partners all the way through. They were partners in Highland. The reason they chose the name Highland, Izzy Weinstein's daughter went to Highland Manor which was a fancy girls' private school.

CS: And Clyde Shirt was from the steamship company.

IS: Yeah, Clyde- there was a Clyde steamship company in New York. I don't know how they found that.

GE: So Clyde Shirt made shirts and blouses?

IS: Well, we did a lot of things. We-- We had about over one hundred operators there.

GE: With Clyde Shirt?

IS: With Clyde Shirt. And they mainly did shirts. But Highland was a fairly large company. We had over 100 machines there. And our girls, we treated them right and they stayed. So we were able to make different kind of garments, for example, we made shirts, and if you were from Philadelphia you would know them--Villager and Ladybug, do you remember them?

GE: Yes, I do remember them.

IS: We were their chief- Most of their-

CS: We used to stay at their house. Norman Raab.

IS: When Norman Raab needed contractors, he came to Allentown and stayed at my 00:36:00parents' house! And we were lucky, we got their-

GE: And that was- that was a Philadelphia firm. I've heard the name, definitely.

SCB: And they had an outlet in Telford.

IS: They made everything. They made purses, they made raincoats, they made shoes.

SCB: Huge outlet in Telford, I've seen it.

GE: Did you know, you know now that you're saying it, I think it was related to that--my father had a cousin named Bernie Rutberg, and he's about your age, a little older than you actually. And after- during the war, I think he worked for somebody, then after the war, he went into making dresses, and I thought it was Villager.

CS: Probably.

IS: Yeah, they made dresses too.

CS: When Anne went to college-

IS: Let me talk, please!

CS: Oh, okay.

IS: When- We had such a close relationship. When my oldest daughter left for 00:37:00college, they said--and they made everything, from soup to nuts, I mean from purses to coats, to- everything but bras and panties I think they made. They said, "Bring your daughter to Philadelphia and she could have whatever she wants."

GE: Wow, that's very lucky.

IS: She made a complete-

CS: Outfit.

IS: Outfits.

CS: Wardrobe.

IS: When my daughter, Joan, went to college--she went to BU, Boston--she went with a halter and jeans.

GE: I was going to say, everything changed. Because I know-

CS: And what did it say on the shirt?

IS: Shit.

CS: No, it didn't. It said, come on.

IS: What?

CS: "Damn It".

IS: Oh, "Damn It", whatever.

CS: I was so mad at her all the way up to Boston, and when I got there, I apologized. They were all dressed the same way, I saw.

IS: But Anne-

GE: It's- It's really changed, it's amazing.

IS: She didn't give a damn about clothing, you know? And- And Anne, when she went, she came to a new dorm that was just built.

CS: At University- She went to the University of Chicago.

IS: Chicago. Irene went to-

CS: Northwestern for a year, and then transferred.

IS: Irene went to Northwestern, and she started going with her soon- eventually husband, who was at Muhlenberg. And that's why she switched to Lafayette.

GE: I see.

IS: And we know him, since they're married, I mean, he's taking her out. I regard him as a son, not a son-in-law. He's a wonderful guy.

SCB: So at that time, after you graduated from high school and then went to 00:39:00college, etc., what- what was your role in the business when you came back home and worked for your father?

IS: Oh I- I imitated my father. We had a good marker maker. But I decided to educate myself much further just in case. And I took- learned pattern making. They would give me a sample garment which was usually a medium- a medium and I would grade a small from it, a large, a medium-large, an extra-large, you know, how to operate it. I used a spec sheet--a specification sheet--and I would enlarge the length or I'd you know, I'd make the patterns.

And it served me well because my father and I got into a bruha one time and I 00:40:00had to go around knocking on doors looking for a job. So what had happened, I applied- I knocked on all of the doors I knew in Allentown which a lot of my friends owned businesses. Only one of them would say, "Irwin, I don't want to hire a friend. What do you do if it don't work out--how do you fire a friend?" So I read the handwriting on the wall. And I- did I get a job locally? I don't think so.

CS: What?

IS: I didn't work locally at all, did I?

CS: No, you went to New York.

IS: I- My friend- Nate Braunstein made belts and he subscribed to Women's Wear 00:41:00Daily, so he would save me all of the issues. That was the Bible of the sewing business. And I would borrow his old copies and I would check the ads in the back and I would call and make appointments for an interview. Now I never led on that I was calling from Pennsylvania because I rightfully figured that they didn't want to hire anybody that had to travel that distance. But I did it for probably about five, six years or more. I would get up at 5 in the morning. I was on the road at 5 in the morning, I'm sorry. And I would get there about 7:30 a.m. We would work from about 8 to 12, 15 minutes for lunch; but we would quit at 4, so it took me a couple of hours at 4, I was home by 6-6:30. It was just 00:42:00like working here, but a lot more mileage on the car.

GE: Now this is the 1950s?

CS: No, this is later.

GE: 1960s?

CS: You were in business with your father after you- Don't forget, when the Weinstein's kids got married, and you were married, all these kids were taken in and the fathers decided better they split.

IS: No, no, let me get into that.

CS: That was- that was- that was about the '50s.

IS: Harris was about four years younger than me and he got well-trained even though his father had a Jewish accent that you could cut with a knife, but the importance- My father had an overestimated, and frankly--and I call a spade a spade--he had an overestimated opinion of his ability.

GE: Your father?

IS: My father.

GE: Of his ability? Your father's.

IS: Right, right. And his value to the business. Make a long story short, Harris came into the business about four years after, and his father trained him in pricing garments. And the most important part of the business was securing business from manufacturers in New York, and he learned that very well. And he realized that my father, being an equal partner with his father, earned the same amount of money, but he could be replaced for a man of $200-$250 a week. So why the hell should he be your partner? Even though they were in business together about 40 years. And I was mad as hell, he insisted that they break the 00:44:00partnership. In the meantime, they- we had three factories going on--Highland, in 10th and Walnut over the bowling alley; Clyde Shirt, which was the biggest, but both of those had cutting departments. And then we had Sylvania Sportswear up at 18th and Main, which was a small three-story building that didn't have cutting facilities. In other words, it- they used to cut- Well what they- They broke up the partnership, they did us a favor in as much as they instigated the break up. They gave us the choice of whoever took up Clyde, the other two 00:45:00factories would be opposite, and in addition, there would be a monetary exchange because Clyde was still bigger than the other two combined. So we opted to take the two factories.

GE: You took Highland and then also Sylvania?

IS: Highland and Sylvania Sportswear.

GE: Sportswear. How many operators were at Sports- Sylvania?

IS: About 50. And we- My cousin, Sydney, who was my uncle's son, older son, was discharged from service and needed a job and we took him in with us to run Sylvania, to learn the business. And he would stop at Highland, and after the trimmers cleaned up the garments, we'd roll it up by the dozen and tie it and 00:46:00they would take it up to Sylvania for pressing and finishing. There was pressing there- There was a pulley, you put a truck on the bottom, you pull the rope, you can hoist it up to the third floor. We made it through that way- and that way...

In retrospect I can't really blame Harris for what he did. I was mad as hell, but my father kept saying, "Oh they're gonna go broke in no time." Well they never did. He had my mother sold on his ability, but I call a spade a spade. And I knew that sooner or later I'm going to have to get out of here. So when that happened, and I went around- I couldn't get a job locally, and I'd seen-

GE: So that's when you went to New York?

IS: That's when I checked out the ads and called, made it sound like I lived in Jersey or you know--because everyone commuted a half hour, an hour to work. Even if you lived in Long Island, it took you an hour by train to get into downtown New York. So I set up appointments and I did- I went to interviews and I got jobs. But it was an expense, because I drove and I had to go- I went to 12th Avenue because that was the cheapest rental you know for a garage to park your car and if you worked in the garment center it was very expensive- those garages.

GE: And about when is this? Is this around 1960 now or?

CS: It was- I would say the '60s.

IS: The '60s.

GE: And- and- Did you think that the business that, the business that your 00:48:00family took--Sylvania and Highland--was it not viable? Did that-

IS: It was average. We worked like hell and we made a profit, but barely.

CS: But Irwin, then your father decided he wanted to get out. Remember? So then you were back with him.

IS: My father- Oh. Because my- At Highland we were so diversified, and I didn't mention this before, we made army shirts, we made blouses for the WAVES--white with a Peter Pan collar--the WAVES of the navy girls. We made raincoats with a hood for the women's air force. We even made shirts for the Florida Highway Patrol.

SCB: So you made government contracts?

IS: We had government contracts for marine corps shirts with the epaulets, the whole schmear. And we did army shirts, too. And in between we did blouses, which were seasonal, and when that wasn't busy, we made shirts. We had a backbone of Villager because they were always busy, they had two basic styles--a Peter Pan collar, or like a dress collar, long and short sleeves but the patterns were all the same.

Now the secret of our business was overcuts. That is the ability to make a marker, laying out the patterns, better than they figure that they can do. The 00:50:00way we did this, we'd get the piece goods in, let's say 60 inch goods. We had a 60 inch- one table was about 66 inches wide so that we could spread wide goods. But- Butting into it was 48 inch table for 45 inch goods. This we learned over time, I mean I make it sound like it's nothing. But doing it, for example, if we got piece goods in and maybe ten percent of the piece goods were 42 inches wide, the rest were 40 inches. So we took the time and trouble to remake a marker for that extra width. And we were able to have a higher yield. And-

GE: So-so with this overcuts, what you're saying that the profit margin is very much if you can get a higher yield?

IS: Right.

GE: You'll get a little more production out of it.

IS: Right, and then sell them on the open market for cash.

GE: Oh, okay. So in other words, if you're supposed to make 95 for the manufacturer, if you're able to make 100, then the other 5 you can sell?

IS: Right. I mean...

CS: It's how flea markets operate.

SCB: And would that have been also labeled as Villager or not?

IS: Mainly Villager because I had a traveling salesman who we were friendly with, who traveled all the way out to Central Pennsylvania. And I made him promise that do not sell any retail establishment in a city that has Villager on the label, that sells Villager, because it will blow my business there, they 00:52:00would cut me out. And they could tell by the markings on the boxes where it came from, you know, we stamped the lot number, the style number, the size, you know. So fortunately, we didn't get caught.

SCB: Would some of them have possibly gone to an outlet? Like the one in Telford.

IS: What?

SCB: Would some of those garments have gone to the Telford outlet, the Villager, or was that totally-

IS: Oh yeah! In other words, they would say- My father would make out the cutting report when we finished cutting it. For example, let's say there was- we took- They wanted a man's shirt. Small, medium, medium-large, and extra large. The extra large was always the least amount. Next came small, next the larger, and the medium was the most numerous. And dependent- You had to study the 00:53:00cutting table. In other words, they may want a scale of two small, five mediums, three and a half large- medium large, and two extra large. So we would take the half amounts, the two and a half for example, and if another size was a half, we would put the two together because if you spread two sizes, you can make a tighter mark than a single bundled marker. Do I- Do you understand what I'm saying?

SCB: Yes, I sewed a lot when I was young.

GE: Well she understands better than I do.

IS: Okay. And we always had overcuts, because we knew what the hell we were doing.

SCB: Well it's like an intelligence test when they take things apart and you have to figure out how to put them back together again. If you can do that well, then you can make a lot more.

IS: Oh, yeah. Well, we took the extra labor we did by making a 62 inch marker and also a 60 inch marker with the same scale ratio of sizes. And we also had- We cut- We saved the cuttings when you cut a lot you know you have some parts, you don't have everything butting up. So we saved the cuttings and we sold the rags.

GE: Did you sell those rags to like Sheftel?

IS: That's what they did, but we didn't use them, we used--

CS: Jack Pearlman.

IS: Jack?

CS: Pearlman.

IS: Pearlman.

CS: That was your father's start, the same Pearlman.

GE: But that same- And they all- right right.

CS: And all the- They all did this. I mean not just him, they all-

IS: It was great for the classification of the fabric. In other words, white all-cotton paid the most because that was shipped to like Crane Stationary. A fine stationary. If it had a rayon content, it was maybe two cents a pound. White cotton was maybe like ten cents a pound. And it was, you know, the- the- the guy who would pick up the rags would store them under the cutting room and they deliver- Was putting fifty pound burlap potato bags. The cutter would clip it, keep all fabrics the same, and if they didn't finish loading the bag, they would put it aside and wait for a similar kind of fabric, and that was sold for 00:56:00us. Mainly I found that knocking around like I did, going to New York, I worked in Staten Island, I worked in Manhattan, I worked in Long Island, and I gave it- I worked right before the Holland Tunnel one time. They broke into my car there and I had a- a... telephone. It came in-

GE: A car phone.

IS: Those little boxes and I had it there because I wanted to amuse myself. They broke into my car. But I was conscientious, I was never late, I was always there 00:57:00on time. But when things got slow, it was like a one-dimensional kind of thing and I was the latest hire and they could supervise a cutting room without me. I even went down South--one of the ads I saw was a big company in- outside Albany, Georgia, near Peanut Country. And I went to New York, the owner worked in- out of New York in the sales room. They made athletic wear, matching pants and jackets with different fabric.

SCB: Like a sweatsuit?

IS: Like athletic jogging suits. Like a jogging suit kind of.

GE: Now are we in the 1970s at this point?

SCB: We should be, yeah.

IS: About then, yeah. So I went to New York and explained my background and he said, "Irwin, you're hired. Go down, find a place to live," and he always had a motel in Albany because where the plant was--about 20 miles northeast--it was in a very rural area. So we could talk while we're going to work together, you know. He- He would go down every six weeks or so. And the plant manager was a Jewish guy, was a Kochalech [Yiddish-- possibly a shortened version of kochleffel, a pot stirrer]. He was in charge of the plant and was used to doing 00:59:00things his own way, and I let it go at that. I mean I- He didn't bother me, this was a tremendous cutting room. It was about eight cutting tables.

GE: Here you were used to just a couple of cutting tables?

IS: Right, and what I did, I wanted to increase production. And I made big signs, numerical signs, and as soon as they were finished spreading, I had it cut right away and I said, "When you're done, you go to table number three, you go to table such and such," and I kept them busy that way. They didn't need to wait around for the next assignment. So I built up production. Then it came out that somebody mentioned that they used to sell the garments to the workers. And 01:00:00somebody once mentioned, "Oh I can buy the same thing cheaper in town, there's an outlet store." So the next time my boss comes, I mention that, "You know you have a retail outlet?" I told him where it was, he went out, and he couldn't very well fire the manager because he was a more valuable asset than I was. You know, he was responsible for running the whole shabang. So, and I worked there for what, about 6 months?

CS: I don't know, but I went down and I took one look at that place and I said it was a shame! And Rabbi Greenburg-

IS: Wait a minute!

CS: Knew the rabbi-

IS: After I was there a couple of months, and this was before this incident happened, the boss came down and then got the report and saw what I had done, 01:01:00and he said, "Irwin, tell your wife to come down. Make- Make plans to move here permanently." So--and I was living in a motel--and Claire comes and we knew that this town Albany, Georgia was named after Albany, New York. It was about 20,000 people, it had one hospital, one synagogue, a reformed synagogue, and we met the rabbi and we told him of our background. Claire had already been the president of Beth El.

CS: No, I wasn't President.

IS: Oh, wasn't? Oh, whatever.

CS: Sisterhood.

IS: We impressed him.

CS: No, but he knew Rabbi Greenburg. And I just got this feeling, he was telling 01:02:00me, "Don't come here!" And I wasn't about to go because I took one look at tht red dust and- and- you picked up the telephone and heard music or cowboy music or whatever type of music. And I had just lost my sister. And I remember my mother, when I told her I was going down, and she started to cry and my father said, "You go where your husband goes. Your mother came with me to Allentown." He said, "If that's where you want to be, then you go. And don't listen to your mother, she will stop crying, she'll be all right. She has me." Well I went, and I said to her, "Well, I'm not staying! This is not for me!"

SCB: Was the population in-in-in the factories, were they mostly African 01:03:00American or were theySouthernsers?

IS: No, they were Southerners. For example, they got away with so many things that-that the way that- that- because of the way that the place was built that they would never do up North. For example, the whole place was cement block. The men's room--there was no mens or ladies, they--they were just booths with a door in the front with a lock on it and a toilet, not a urinal, just a regular toilet. And to wash your hands afterward you had to go out and there was a couple of few sinks close by, no ceiling--[lost some conversation]

CS: Can I talk?

IS: Only Buck Friedman who was exceptional- exceptional in sports was able to get on an Allentown High School athletic team.

CS: Your brother played football for Raub.

IS: Well, it was a little different. Before my time, then they had three junior 01:04:00high schools--Raub, Central, and Harrison-Morton. Harrison-Morton was down around 3rd Street, where all the Hispanics and Blacks went, the poorer families. Central was around 9th and Liberty, somewhere around there.

CS: Linden.

IS: And that was for what I called the Jewish middle class. There were few Jews there, but it was working class people who worked in the downtown area. Raub was in the western end. It was the most- for the most wealthier citizens, most of the Jewish kids went to Raub. And-

GE: Where did you go?

IS: To Raub. I went to Raub for first through ninth grade. And I walked, it was within walking distance of where I lived. But as I said, it was a- It was 01:05:00annoying at the time, but when I look back now, it was a great advantage. For example, we- we didn't need the- the Gentiles; we had our own clique, our own friends. I had a high school fraternity of about 15-18 guys, Jewish friends. AZA was big at that time also. Claire missed out on a lot of that because her father struck it rich early. She lived in a nice area, what I call the deep west end of Allentown. So she missed out, she got her- her growing up through the Center, she was lucky that way. But I got mine on a daily basis, from the people I associated with and where I lived. There were a lot of many Jews around me, the working class. There was a kosher meat market a half a block away that a lot of 01:06:00Jews patronized and so forth. So growing up with all of these friends, we learned from each other. We learned how to jitterbug--one guy learned how to jitterbug, the rest of us learned. I realized this when I left college. I left and started college at 17. I always wanted to fly, study aeronautical engineering. When do I leave for college? I graduate high school in June; college would normally start around September. Unfortunately, in the garment industry, July 4th is a vacation time where all the factories close down for the first two weeks of July. When does my college curriculum start? It's on a trimester basis, it starts- it starts July 1st. I graduated the middle of June and I had to go to college two weeks later. What the hell did I know about being 01:07:00away from home? Anyhow-

CS: But you went to camp.

IS: That's different. You're there with a bunch of Jewish guys, it's like at home.

SC: Which camp?

IS: Camp Hickory Run. It's run by the Federation, its White Hall- White- White Haven, Pennsylvania, where Boulder Field is. You know where Boulder Field is?

SCB: Yes.

IS: It's right near there. So I'm- It's July 1st, of 1945, that's when my college career started. Where is Irwin? Irwin is up at the Concord, with my parents. I'm having a ball for the two-week vacation. But I left early--I left after four days. I took a jitney to Penn Station in New York--17 years old, never been away from home--I got on the train to St. Louis, because it- The college was in East St. Louis, south of East St. Louis in Illinois. But the 01:08:00closest I could get to was in St. Louis. The head groundskeeper knew I was coming late. He picked me up in St. Louis and took me to campus. And I got- I was the last one to arrive. I had missed four or five days of school already. Luckily, the one remaining room spot was with another Jewish guy who was graduating. But from him I didn't learn much because he wasn't in a classmate, or didn't have any classes that I had. So I had a double job. I had to learn all about the campus, and I had to make new friends from my classmates.

So, I managed to do- do that because I was personable, because of my growing up with all my boyfriends, not afraid to talk. And I was very, very personable. So 01:09:00the first weekend rolls around, what does a nice Jewish boy do when he's there for the first time? He doesn't have a car. He goes to town. So I took a bus into downtown East St. Louis, another bus from East St. Louis across the Mississippi River to St. Louis, and I looked up the address of the YMHA in St. Louis, which was in the west end, Union and Delmar. I took another bus all the way out there. And every Sunday morning, this was in '45, the war was just about over, and every Sunday morning they would have a bagel breakfast. They had Jewish hostesses for veterans and St. Louis was a hub for military activity. Lambert Field, which was the St. Louis municipal airport, was a naval air station. And 01:10:0020 miles east in Illinois was Scott Field, which was an army air base. And all the Jewish boys like me would grab a ride into St. Louis and we'd meet. I go walking in there the first Sunday and whom do I see? Four of my high school fraternity brothers from Pennsylvania. Well what a reunion we had.

I bullshitted about my age because I was about the same height and weight as I am now. I even grew a mustache. And I passed myself off for a veteran, so I met girls, I had a breakfast every Sunday morning, and that was my social activity. We had a dance about 3 weeks later--my classmates would have to depend--and it was a Catholic nursing school in East St. Louis--they would have to depend on the girls. I brought the best looking girl I found in the Y. And they said, 01:11:00"Irwin, how the hell do you know a nice looking girl already?'' They didn't stop to think that the Jewish [unclear]. "How do you know somebody nice looking that don't have to depend on- on the dating list?" I said, "Well, I have abilities." But I blame it on my growing up. If I didn't have the background, I wouldn't have been able to pass myself off. I wouldn't have been able to enjoy the lifestyle I did. Fortunately, it was just after the war, my father was in much better financial shape. I had a- my own bank account, you know, I could do what I wanted. The only mistake I made, I didn't- I let him sell my car. I should have driven out, I didn't realize it was so far away from everything. But I only stayed there a year, and I went back with my father. He wanted me to come into the business. And they were doing interviews in my school for engineers, and the salaries at that time--I was spending more on the weekend. So I said this isn't 01:12:00for me, I'll go back to Pennsylvania, which I did. Then a couple of years later I went-

CS: You went to Muhlenberg.

IS: I went to Muhlenberg. He said finish your education.

GE: Did you finish it at Muhlenberg?

IS: No, I went two years to Muhlenberg. I had business, you know, which was general. And Claire suddenly discovered-

CS: Yeah, Muhlenberg was very hard to get into.

SC: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

IS: That was before girls even. And we had to pull strings to get me in because I applied late. You know, I went home over Christmas, and I wanted to start that September.

CS: Morris Senderowitz was a great benefactor of Muhlenberg.

GE: Oh, was he?

CS: And he was a very good friend of the families. He lived at 18th and Hamilton Street, and Morris got the boys into Muhlenberg and Cedar Crest was the same 01:13:00story. Because my trunk went to Rhode Island, I was going to Pembroke, which is part of Brown and I decided I didn't want to leave my mother. And my mother told me to be honest, if it was that I was Irwin's, say it. So she- I said well, I'd rather stay in Allentown. So Lena Senderowitz, we got a phone call, and she was on the board at Cedar Crest, and I went to Cedar Crest.

SC: Well that's a good segue.

CS: But yeah, there's a great deal of anti-Semitism, there was. When Irene went to Northwestern-

GE: And Irene is?

CS: -- That was 1960. That's our daughter, our middle daughter. She was rushed for sororities, you know, that's a very- sorority school. And the Halperin girl was out there, Marion Halperin's older daughter. And you know, she kind of took 01:14:00Irene. Irene had been a cherub there and she loved the school. She had a Muhlenberg boyfriend when she went there though. At any rate, she was rushed by these different sororities, and I got a phone call from Bill Hacker's wife. Oh my daughter! She wants- All these wonderful things you know she's heard about her. She's top- one of the top students and- and all this junk. And then, her finally- She hopes that, you know, she's going to join this sorority. And I don't say anything, you know, I say that's going to be up to her. I know that I- I'm not going to interfere with what she wants to do. She said, oh by the way, who is your minister? I said, "My rabbi is William Greenburg. I belong to Temple Beth El." And I called my daughter and I said don't you dare join that sorority. I was livid.

SC: Let me turn this off-- ________________ Interview with Claire Salistky, May 26th, 2011

SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: So Claire, I'd like to ask you what your full name is and more about your family background, a little bit more about your family background. But let's- let's talk a little bit about where your family came from.

CLAIRE SALISTSKY: Oh, I have that inside. Irwin, on the table there's that paper from Anne, you know, our oldest daughter. I mean, from Alison, our oldest granddaughter, is very interested in genealogy, so I gave her all the records I had and she- she gave me where they came from.

SC: Well, let me just ask you, what is your full name, when were you born, and where were you born?

CS: My full name is Claire Joy Wiener Salitsky.

IRWIN SALISTSKY: W-I-E-N-E-R.

CS: And I was born in Paterson, New Jersey, July 16th, 1929. My mother's name 01:16:00was Mary Mendelson Wiener and my father was Louis Wiener. My mother was born in Paterson; she was one of nine children who grew up; there were fifteen originally.

IS: That was before television.

CS: And she came from a- a very religious, orthodox family, and she was second from the end. I have a picture of them hanging on the wall. My father was born in Poland in a shtetl [Yiddish for small Jewish village in Eastern Europe] called- Ojikauf is the name of the burial society, but he was born in 1907. No, 1903, and he came to this country in 1907. He was the third child in the family. 01:17:00Now, my grand- My father's family they were- they were silk weavers. They lived in the shtetl near "Lodz" [Claire pronounces it LODZ]. Lodz was a silk weaving-

GAIL EISENBERG: Lodz [pronounced LUDJ]? I think that's Lodz.

CS: Yes, and they lived in- According to what was found, they lived in- they called it D-O-L-Y-S-Z-I-N. But they called it Russia. Now Lodz was Lodz at that point, you know the boundaries were constantly changing. You didn't know. My grandmother's maiden name was Warshawsky. Now I did get a copy of the marriage thing. And her husband, my grandfather's name was Joel Robilinsky. Okay. In 01:18:00order to get out of the country, he- his- my- took his brother-in-law's army papers. He was out of the army already. And he came to the United States with his brother-in-law's army pass. His brother-in-law's name was Joel--"Yo'el", Yo'el, whatever--something like Wiener. Okay?

GE: So he took on the name.

CS: And my grand- My grandmother's- He- He was my grandmother's brother. Her- Her mother had remarried, her father had died. And they came to- He came to the United States alone in 1904. And he went to Connecticut. And I'm trying to think 01:19:00what city it was where they made felt hats. And he couldn't take the inhaling of the felt, and so he had- they shipped him down to Paterson, where he had more relatives, and he was able to do his- Paterson was the silk center of this country at that time. Anyhow, that was that. My mother's family, my grandfather, came from a shtetl named Barstitzti, B-A-R-S-T-I-T-Z-T-I, near--I knew it as Lithuania.

GE: Right, right now, Vilna, Vilna.

CS: Vilna. It was right near Vilna, because when I went to Russia the first time, I went on to Lithuania, and all I could- there I heard- I found 01:20:00anti-Semitism. Terrible. The bus driver wouldn't take us. There was a group of Jewish girls on the trip.

GE: When was this around?

CS: The first time I went to Russia was 19- When did I open my travel agency? 1980? Your 60th birthday, how old are- how- When was that? 1929-- 1989.

IS: [19]87.

CS: Eighty- 1987, it was around then. And they wouldn't take us, and we got a cab, and I took my sister-in-law who had never been out of the country with me to Russia. My father almost had a bird that the two of us were going where they had struggled to get out. I found it fascinating.

SCB: And that was right before the fall of the Soviet Union, too.

CS: Oh, it was- It was unbelievable. I- I felt it was one of the best trips I 01:21:00ever took. But, at any rate, he lived near- They lived near Vilna and he was a farmer there. When he came to the United States, he came first in '04 and she- and he came over in 1896 and she followed in 19- 1897 with one, two, let's see-- The three sons, the one daughter, four of the kids, and every year she had another- another child. But he started out as a huckster guy, and then he got involved in the building business. And he became--as I never found this out, I mean, I knew he owned tenement buildings, because every Friday at three o'clock when we got out of school, we got in the car and we went to Slatington, where my father's factory was, to pick up my father and he'd drive to Paterson because we 01:22:00had to get there before Shabbos [Yiddish for Sabbath]. And we would come home Sunday night. So on Sundays I would go with my cousin and we would collect the rent. To me it was fun! We went in and out of these buildings on- And there were blocks of them. I- I didn't know from anything. And- But years later, in Florida, I met somebody and he happened to admire what I was wearing. It was a Valentine's Day party and I was wearing something red. And he said to me, where are you from? And I said from Allentown, Pennsylvania. And I said where are you from? He said Paterson, New Jersey. I said, oh, I was born there. Oh! Well what did you, you know, what is your name? We go through this whole thing and it ended up he had bought my aunt's house. And, you know, he said, your grandfather was William Mendelson. I said, yes. He said he gave a lot of money to charity 01:23:00but he was a slum landlord. I came home, I was shocked. I mean I never knew what he did, but he was a very religious man. But at any rate, my parents met--my mother was sixteen when she met my father, he was older. Can I think how much older my father was than my mother? Maybe four- four years older. Anyhow, he took her on a May Walk. Don't ask me what a May Walk is, but anyhow, they were engaged for two years, because he said he would not get married until he could buy a house. My grandfather had apartment houses, too, on this street where he lived. And his children were all on this one street. My father said, "That's not for me. We are going to move out, a full place," so that's what they did after 01:24:00they were married. And they were married in '29- in '27 in the- in Paterson. And it was funny, yesterday I was at a Friendship Circle luncheon that one of our friends sponsored and had invited us to come, and the director of the Jewish Community Center was from Paterson. And we were talking about all the places we went when we were little, because as I said, I went there every weekend until I was in junior high. And it was- well- well- Of course I was too young to know, but I was born in 1929, and my father was in business with his father. He had- 01:25:00My father left school at the age of thirteen, when he graduated from eighth grade, or fourteen. And he went to work on the railroads. And he earned, whatever money he earned, he turned over to his mother. And at the time when you know the war, they got bonuses, the First World War and all that, and he was able to buy his parents a house and put his father in business. And so, he- My father was a remarkable man. He was self-educated--after eighth grade, he never went to school. My mother, on the other hand, was educated, finished high school, and then went to Katharine Gibbs, or one of those kinds of schools. And 01:26:00her brothers-

GE: What is that, like a finishing school or?

CS: No, a secretarial school.

IS: It's like a business college.

CS: And she- she went to- The youngest sister went to Columbia. The two brothers were lawyers, and one brother was in the hosiery business. And my mother worked for her older brother who was a lawyer. She was his secretary. And so, anyhow, I was born and she- Well they were all stay-at-homers. You know, they cooked, they- they did everything together, though. The sisters, there were six sisters. And, I mean, when they made a Seder, [Jewish ritual service and ceremonial dinner to celebrate Passover] you would think an interior designer came in and fixed the table and everything else. They- they were- My mother had golden hands. She could knit, crochet, sew, she arranged flowers, she- and she was a 01:27:00marvelous hostess and a wonderful cook. But- And she was a wonderful mother. I was very blessed, I had a mother and father that were like no other. That's how I feel. They were very giving, they were very loving, and they believed in their kids, and they spent a lot of time with us, they put a lot into us. And I can remember when my brother graduated law school, my father stood and cried like a baby. He had put his brother through law school, he had put another brother through to become a- an accountant, and he had a third brother that was in medical school when he died. So, to them, education was important and service to the community, that was one thing I learned growing up in Allentown. You- You 01:28:00can't just take, you must give back, you must be a part of your community and if you are more fortunate, you are to help others. But we came- My father was in business with his father in Paterson when the Depression hit.

SCB: What kind of business was that?

CS: He was in the silk weaving business.

SCB: He was in the silk weaving business, yeah.

CS: And he had- He- He couldn't make it and so he knew he was going to have to go bankrupt. And he went to his father-in-law and he explained the situation. And his father-in-law and his two brothers, two of the three brothers-in-laws agreed he should go through bankruptcy, it wouldn't hurt. My father went to a stranger who gave- lent him the money to pay all his bills. And he had this opportunity, I don't know how he heard about it, but there was an empty factory 01:29:00in Slatington. And he- He went- He came here and he was able to make a deal with the city of Slatington, and he was just very fortunate. He- he had- He had when he came here a partner from Paterson, an older man, whose last name was also Wiener, but was spelled W-E-I-N-E-R. And he had a son named Jack who he had- He wanted his son to learn the business so my father- He came along and he was married. He wanted to live in Slatington, my father would not allow my mother- My mother- He thought my mother would want to stay in Paterson and he'd come home weekends. Well, my mother was told by her mother, you go with your husband. And so she came, and she- they lived in Allentown at 2445 Union Street. And I 01:30:00was three, that was-

GE: Claire, did that become- I'm sorry. Did that become a rift in the family that-?

CS: Pardon me?

GE: Was there a rift in the family with that the father-in-law-

CS: No. My grandmother was one of the wisest women in the world. My father was very bitter about it, but it taught him a lesson, because later on when my father was doing very well and he had gotten involved with dyeing plants and throwing plants and machinery and everything else, and he had a blouse business on the side, and- It- He was just very lucky and very bright, and he worked very hard to get where he was. And he made fur coat linings, which was the main thing and fabrics for the Catholic Church, because he once gave me a spool of gold 01:31:00thread to have. The vestments and everything else, you know, that was the kind- the kind of fabric that he made. But-

GE: I- I had- No, I had asked in regards to, you said that your father was bitter, that his- that his father-in-law and brother-

CS: Yes, but he learned that- He had an accountant, Frank Berg. It was Berg, Schultz, Green, you know. Frank Berg was a senior partner. They were the first people my father met, and my mother met when they moved to Allentown, Frank and Molly Berg. And as my father did well, Frank would always find- there were people who needed help, and he would come to my father, and my father always- would never, never say no to anyone, and that's what he taught us.

SCB: So when- When you moved- When they moved from Paterson, the factory was in 01:32:00Slatington but the family was in Allentown?

CS: Yes. And he drove to Slatington.

IS: Well they set up the factory in Slatington, it wasn't a case of moving the factory.

SCB: No, no, right. But they set up-

IS: They have a building, found a building, and started the business.

SCB: Right. And was it an extension of the silk industry in Paterson because they were making silk linings?

CS: Well it was but it was weaving the fabrics for the- He wove fine fabrics for fur coat linings, jacquards [fabrics]. I can still remember him sitting and he used to look through a- a thing and they'd see the designs that go into a fur coat lining. And the fabrics for the- the church were beautiful.

SCB: Were they mostly silk?

CS: Pardon?

SCB: Were they mostly silk?

CS: Oh, all silk. Yeah.

IS: They had a good position with DuPont.

CS: DuPont, Eastman Kodak

SC: Oh, wow, so also synthetic fabrics. Yeah.

CS: And he, as I said, he- he prospered. He bought a lot of real estate, not in Allentown, but in Paterson and Newark. His brother would hear of something and tell him. And he got involved in a lot of things. And he got very much involved in Temple Beth El. Harry Neff-

GE: I don't know the name Louis Wiener..

CS: Harry Neff, that's Jerry Neff's father-

GE: I don't know if I know Jerry Neff.

CS: Jerry and Norman. Well, if you go to Trivet on Friday at noon time, you'll find a group of old men who sit and talk about their youth, and Jerry Neff is one of them. But Harry Neff came calling on my father and mother, they were new in town, you know, and he told them where the Kosher butcher was. My mother used to have her meat brought in from Paterson on our carrier, which was used to 01:34:00deliver yarn to my father's factory, you know. And I used to say that I hated liver, and I used to say that it smelled like the silk, bails of silk that used to come in. So my father joined Temple Beth El and-

GE: Claire, did your father- Did the partnership-

CS: That- That partnership stayed until- when the father- This man had a son in Slatington and he had a son-in-law in the New York sales office. But when he died, the sons and the son-in-law were bought out.

GE: By your father?

CS: Yeah.

GE: Okay, so- so- so during that older man's lifetime-

IS: He was active in Slatington. Her father ran the whole show in Paterson- in Slatington.

GE: Right, right. But the relationship- the partnership was maintained while the man was alive, and then when he died they bought out-

CS: Yes.

GE: They bought out the two sons.

IS: He was just content that his son had a job.

GE: Right, right.

CS: And the sons, they both retired to Florida. But my mother was not--how can I say it?--she was not involved like I am. You know? That generation--she was there to see you got off to school in the morning and she came- she was there when we came home from school. She had a mahjong group, they played at night, not in the afternoons. A mother's place was home with her kids, and she instilled that in my sister and me. But I- See, I'm getting ahead of myself, but 01:36:00there was what I used to call a Triumvirate, which Dr. Katz-

SCB: -- Triumvirate again, because that turned off.

CS: Oh, it was a Triumvirate. Mitchell Katz, he was the family doctor, Rabbi William Greenburg, and Nettie Klass, Mrs. Aaron Klass. And they would find these people who needed help.

GE: Now is this like the 1950s?

CS: Oh this is- I'm married 63 years.

IS: [19]49 or '48. Early '50s.

CS: And it was- All I know is, when she went to Florida, she [my mother] said to me, "I'm leaving you signed checks for Freeman's dairy." I said for what? She said, "Well," she says, "I pay for milk for people, and so I want you, you know, to pay the bill." I said all right. But you know, this went on year after year 01:37:00after year. And one day, I walked- I was then already involved with the Federation, and I asked George Feldman--well then it was called UJA--I asked him, the executive director of the Center and the UJA, I said, "I- I have to ask you something, Mr. Feldman. My mother is buying milk for all these people." I said, "Do you know--do they still have little children?" And he looked at me and he said, "No." He said, "Really I should tell Mary to stop." So I said, "Well, I'm going to tell Mary, I'm not-" Do you know she got mad at me? And she said you will continue and I will continue while I'm alive. If they don't need it, maybe their children need it.

SCB: And the U-U-

GE: And this is not your mother, this was-

CS: Pardon?

SCB: The UJA is the United Jewish Appeal?

CS: Yeah.

SCB: Yeah, I just wanted to put that on the- Yeah, I wanted to put that on the tape.

GE: You- You said- Was this your mother? Or this was that woman-

CS: They would find these, they would find people-

IS: Nettie was the local nurse.

CS: They- they- they used to find other women who used to do this.

GE: And who were- Who were the different women? What were their names? "Nettie"...

CS: Nettie Klass-

IS: K-L-A-S-A

CS: -- Rabbi Greenburg, and Doctor Katz. And they lived right across the street from the center, the new center. And then- When I would go by and see the three of them sitting outside, I knew somebody was in trouble.

SC: Well then was it your mother that was involved in telling you, "No, you keep doing it?"

CS: That's right.

SCB: And then what about Nettie at that point?

CS: Huh?

SCB: What about Nettie at that point?

CS: Well after Nettie died, she didn't get any new names, so.

SCB: Oh, but your mother was involved too?

CS: My mother- Just- If Nettie said so and so needs, then I'll order it and they'll bill you. That's it. My mother probably didn't even know who they were.

GE: Isn't that beautiful?

CS: But that's how she was. My father was very involved- I mean, she would hostess for my father. Oh, I remember she used to have Oneg Shabbats [desserts and beverages served after Friday evening Sabbath services] growing up.

GE: Which is- Which is Friday night after services.

CS: It's a- It's a Saturday thing with family. She used to have-

GE: Kiddush [food served after Saturday morning Sabbath services]?

CS: No, Oneg Shabbat, like a study session. And she used to do it- She used to have stuff from Hadassah [popular women's Zionist organization]. And of course, every time they were raising money for the Temple or the Center because my father was co-chairman of the building fund of the Center on 22nd Street and he was chairman of the Temple.

GE: And that was what, in the 1950s was that built?

IS: Yeah.

GE: 1950s.

SCB: So if she was- If she having a study group after Shabbat, was this men and 01:40:00women or just women?

CS: Just women. That was the women. Just the women.

GE: And that would be like a Saturday afternoon after services?

CS: Yes. We used to have a- a Sisterhood. I'm trying to think what it was, what we called it, but we used to have it on- occasionally on- I remember Adrienne Warshawsky was chairman of it. That's when I was Sisterhood President, I can't remember though what we called it.

Well anyway, we grew up; I walked- I used to walk to school from 25th and Union to the Raub School. I mean when I think about it today, that our parents could let us walk that distance, and it was a- and our neighborhood was gentile. Across the street was a Rumberger family and they were wonderful. I grew up with Janet Rumberger. And we had an empty lot next to the house, my father got 01:41:00permission from the city to clear it. And he put toys out there, you know, kids' things. But unfortunately, older kids would come and trash it, so my father took it down, took down the toys and that was it. But that's where we lived. And- Well the Samuels family lived a block away and they were very nice to my parents when they moved here. And then when I was in third grade, I remember it was my parents' fifteenth wedding anniversary, we moved to the house 2710 Greenleaf Street. And I used to go to school with Ruthie Rappaport, there were very few Jewish kids in the Muhlenberg School.

GE: Very few?

CS: Very few. And- But I guess- My- My childhood memories of Allentown were 01:42:00wonderful. I think this is a wonderful place for kids to grow up. I was happy here, I mean- and then I went to Raub Junior High, and then I went to Allen- It was Allentown High School in those days.

IS: She used to ride with Harry Neff and he used to take us in his car. And she couldn't stand Irwin. So she would get out a block before I did so she didn't have to come with me.

CS: And Harry Neff said they are going to end up married.

SCB: And he was prophetic.

CS: But I went to Allen- Allentown High just for one year. My father could not figure out how anybody who went to school every day and never did homework, or rarely did homework, came home with all 100s on her report card. And- Because I 01:43:00could figure out, the classes were so big, when I'm going to get called on and that's when I would do- I- I wasn't a good student, but I became a better student at Moravian.

GE: Oh okay, so you went to Moravian after Allen.

CS: I- I- I was- There was a family in town, one Marilyn Levine, she lived down South 16th Street.

GE: Now is that part of the Levine's, the fabric store?

CS: No, no. This was a Mr. Levine who had the cotton shop, right?

IS: Yeah. His- Her father had a merchant shop-

CS: On Hamilton Street. In fact, they used the second floor of his building when they had services in the beginning when Temple Beth El- you know before they got the building at 12th and Walnut.

IS: The attitude of the Jews at that time was a lot different than it is today. They were all one hundred percent behind the Temple. They were all in the same 01:44:00economic group. Claire missed out on a lot because she- her family was fortunate to live and buy a house in the deep west end. She didn't grow up like I did in the working-class Jews of around 16th and Fairview, in that area. So it was a lot different. We weren't aware of it at the time, but when you think back now, you know, you realize the difference. And it made a-

CS: This you know was after the war. And there were a lot of girls that were pregnant in high school and my father just thought that was a- So he decided-

GE: Just curious, you're not talking about Jewish girls in the neighborhood?

CS: No.

GE: You're just talking about kids.

CS: Just kids pregnant. And he just- He just didn't think it was the right place 01:45:00for me. He heard about different private schools, so he- The first school I thought about was--I read about different schools--the Emma Willard School in Troy, New York. And Marilyn Levine also heard about it and she applied, and they wouldn't take two Jewish girls from the same town yet. So I then- the Mary Baldwin School in Bryn Mawr, okay? Well, I applied and we went down for an interview, and I can still see that lady; I know her name. And we sat there and she said to us, "Well, we will take your daughter. We have never had a Jewish boarding student. She will have to room alone." My father said, "Stop." He said, 01:46:00"You can take your damn school and shove it." And he told me to get up. Her name was Rosamond Cross. Today, Beverly Bloch's grandchildren go there, and I told them the story. She said, "Claire, the school is all Jewish now." I said that lady is turning over.

SCB: And that wasn't a Quaker school? That was a Episcopal maybe, an Episcopal?

CS: No, right, the Quaker schools are called the Friends Schools.

SCB: Right, Friend Schools, and there are a lot of them in the area.

CS: Right, in Philly.

SCB: Was this, was it Episcopal perhaps?

CS: Probably. I- I don't know. I mean, that ended it. My father said you are going to Moravian. So I went to Moravian and I learned how to study and I- I had a very- I was very happy there. And I went to look at colleges and I fell in love with Pembroke. I loved Brown, I loved the city of Providence, and that's where I was going. The trunk went, and I stayed home. I went to Cedar Crest and 01:47:00then got married.

SCB: Because you already knew Irwin by that time?

CS: Oh, yes. Well when he came home from St. Louis, his mother must have told him that that nice little girl around the corner-

IS: No, no, you're getting ahead of yourself. After the first year, 1942, early part of the war, my father accumulated enough money to move out of South West Street. And he thought- We bought a house at 2709 Washington.

CS: So Washington is here and Greenleaf is here.

IS: She lived a block away.

CS: And there was a service alley.

IS: Yeah, I used to go up and down the alley to see her all the time. And of course her parents were- went to Florida for the whole winter and we had the run of the house. They had an excellent housekeeper all those years.

CS: And I had- I had the biggest television set in the city of Allentown. Max Hess called my father up, he said, "I have two of them, I'm taking one, I think you should have the other one." The whole Phi Ep house used to come to watch the television.

IS: They had a finished basement and they had this projection model TV, which was about three feet by four feet. At that time, the television screens- We used to have parties and galore over there.

SCB: So you stayed, did you- Did your other brothers- Your other siblings stay in Allentown when your parents went to Florida?

IS: Oh yeah.

CS: My sister- My brother went to Blair Academy and my sister went to Emma Willard.

IS: With Jane Fonda.

CS: Jane Fonda was her roommate, in her suite, one of her suitemates. Margie went to Emma Willard.

GE: Blair Academy is where?

IS: Blairstown, New Jersey.

SCB: Hackettstown in that area?

IS: Blairstown, New Jersey.

SCB: Yeah, but it's near Hackettstown.

GE: And where is that, Emma Willard?

IS: In Troy, New York.

GE: Oh that's the one you were saying, okay.

CS: Yeah, Margie went to- Well, I mean, I went to camp in the summer. I loved camp. I went to camp until I was seventeen.

SCB: Which camp was that?

CS: Camp Akiba. It was a Jewish camp in the Poconos. Bartonsville? Yeah, the village was Appenzell, the mailing address was Bartonsville.

IS: Outside of Stroudsburg.

CS: It was near Stroudsburg. And I loved my summers at camp. My brother hated camp because he said they have brother and sister meetings, but she never talks to me, she talks to the boys. My sister and I loved camp. He didn't. So my father said well if you don't want to go to camp, you can come home, and I'll 01:50:00take you to the mill and you'll work in the mill. That was like- He stayed in camp. But I loved camp. And- And at the Center, you know, we had a high school sorority, a Jewish high school sorority. And they had sororities at Allen High, Allentown, and I get such a kick out of it--whenever Charlie Dent runs for office, his mother, Marjorie Wieder Dent, calls to remind me of the wonderful times we had at Allen High. And I tell her, I only stayed there one year and that's it.

SCB: So, were your parents good friends of the Hesses?

CS: Pardon me?

SCB: Were your parents good friends of the Hesses?

IS: Nobody really was good friends with the Hesses.

CS: Well Max Hess lived on Livingston Street at- at 27th. And he- Richard was 01:51:00his- You see, there was a table in Hess's patio in the back. A big round table where local businessmen used to eat, the Jewish men. And Max Hess would always join them. And he- I remember once they were working on a thing for the Center, counting Jewish families, and he says you count me, but not my wife and my children. He was married to a gentile woman, Betty Douglass.

IS: He was not community-minded as such. He was involved only in his- the store. And-

CS: And from the day- Even after I was married, when I would see him in the street, he'd said, "Miss Wiener! Miss Wiener!" He'd never call me Claire. And I'm so used to everybody calling me Claire I don't even know when they- I don't turn around.

IS: He used to have the greatest Christmas parties. He would have Hollywood celebrities come to-

CS: Oh and I thought your Christmas party- The first time you took me to a Christmas party at the factory, I had the best time of my life. All they did was polka dance. It was in a- Where was it? It was in a-

IS: Saint Joe's.

CS: Saint Joe's in Northampton. It was wonderful. But I loved growing up in Allentown. I was very happy.

SCB: And one of the women who I interviewed, now I'm- Was it Joanne Spencer whose mother worked for the Hesses?

IS: Could be, yeah.

SCB: And I'm trying to think of her maiden name. Oh... I'll think of it, I'll let you know. She worked, and- and actually- Now maybe I'm wrong, maybe it was someone else. Maybe it was Hazel Aisley.

CS: Hazel?

SCB: Hazel Aisley, yeah.

IS: He didn't have that many Jewish employees.

SCB: No, they were African American.

IS: That's why Max- he chose Irwin Greenburg. His son wasn't interested and 01:53:00Irwin was the most amazed person when he was selected because he only had only worked there a few-

CS: What about Jerry Mandel?

IS: And Jerry Mandel. He had a couple- And Roy Hertz was there for a while.

CS: Yes, Roy Hertz was there.

IS: They were controllers so, not-

CS: And what about my father's friend, Mitch Kauffman and-

IS: Well he was a bigshot. He was a widower or a bachelor. He was never married, Mitch Kauffman. Was he?

CS: He's married- Yeah! To a girl named- to a woman named Nancy. She's a very good friend of Anna Frankel.

IS: Well that's only a couple of executives, a handful, and at the time they had ten stores. That's when they branched out.

SCB: And this was a woman who worked for his family, I guess cooking and-

CS: Yes, Hazelman. Because he had a swimming pool and you could look in and it was unbelievable. You know he invited us up because he lived up the hill from us. And he used to ride a motorcycle down 27th Street and Richard would follow 01:54:00in the Cadillac. Richard was the-

IS: And they had two Great Dane dogs that were chasing after all of them.

CS: And then the house next to us was bought by Mr. Becker, who was one of the- one of his big managers there. He used to come down and park in Mr. Becker's driveway, visit him, then come over and visit my father. And he was a very nice man. He was a brilliant-

IS: He respected those who had money.

CS: He respected those who had brains, too.

IS: Well yeah.

CS: He was a very bright man in merchandising.

GE: Right, right, right. He was one of the best. Going back with your father, Louis Wiener, do you want to tell us a little bit? Because I know he was a major pillar in the community, the Jewish community with the institutions. What were some of the- Was he a president of the synagogue?

CS: No, he would never be the president. But he was the chairman of the board for umpteen years. And when he gave it up, he felt that it was time for the younger people to take over, he believed strongly in that. And they made him the honorary chairman of the board, which he has- had...

IS: He was the driving force for the new building of the new Temple.

GE: On 17th and Hamilton?

IS: Yeah. At that time, Claire and I were just married, and we were living with them until- We didn't have our own house then.

CS: No, first we were living in the apartment.

IS: Well, we had the apartment. Then we moved- We lived in the Schnitzer's apartment on 18th and Hamilton.

CS: But I had to move- When we had a baby, I had to leave.

IS: No. But I remember he had the big shots at the Temple come and make all of 01:56:00the pledges and the groundwork for the building fund and all, were all held in Claire's father's house. Major planning, including bringing in the architect from New York, who designed the building and not only after they had the money, but the initial planning of the building, and who would do it, and how they were going to do it. And there were fights and yells and screams--I remember Abe Benioff and the architect got into an argument, almost socked each other.

CS: And that architect, do you- You know Max Stetner?

GE: I know who he is, yeah.

CS: Okay, Mr. Stetner was a past president of the Temple, his father. He was a quiet, gentlemanly little man. And when he came to this country, he was an architect from Europe. And he got a job with this Mr. Courland, who was the architect.

SCB: Courland?

IS: Courland. K-O-U-R-L-A-N-D.[the correct spelling is with a "C."]

SCB: Okay.

CS: He was from New York, I think. And when Mr. Stetner met him for the first time, Max told me, he said to him, "Thank you very much," you know, he said, "for giving me a job." And then I think he let him out, and Mr. Stetner got into the laundry business and did very, very well. So you see, these- These men were a different generation. They aren't like the men of today. Bobby Hammel is like these men. Bobby Hammel is a good- he's- he's wonderful.

GE: You're right. Very philanthropic and very community-minded.

CS: Yes. These men believed in Rabbi Greenburg. He just drew them in. And he- he 01:58:00felt we needed a bigger synagogue, we had more members, the Hebrew school. I went to Hebrew school at the Lincoln School and confirmation- confirmation class at Greenburg's house. I was in his first confirmation class and we had up on the Temple of- on 12th and Walnut, I swear the mice used to be running in the cotton. We had one big room. It was awful. So they wanted this. We had the Center, and we needed our synagogue. And these men, they gave from the heart.

IS: They were all like Bobby Hammel, but in different stages, it was what they could afford. They had the same ideas like Bobby of being generous and what they could afford and that's the way most of the men were and that's the way the Temple was really built.

CS: And it was unbelievable. It was unbelievable. Well we lived at 18th and 01:59:00Hamilton. My father's first stop in the morning was to pick- to come to the apartment, I'd be outside, and he'd park the car in front of the apartment and we'd walk up to the Temple, a block. And he'd walk through and I'd walk through with him. And he's looking at this and telling them that. And then at 4:30 in the afternoon we'd go through this again on his way home. So that Temple was a part of my life from the beginning. When Anne was born, Rabbi Greenburg didn't let kids in the sanctuary; that was a no-no. But I would- We wheeled her up, the first Rosh Hashanah, in the service and he stayed outside and I went in. And then he went in and I stayed outside with her. But it- It was different. It was 02:00:00just different growing up. We were a very close-knit community and the friends are still. The boys he grew up with are the boys he eats lunch with and- and they're- it's-

SC: It was a community. Can you say something about Bobby Hammel for the future? Just, you know, to have that on tape.

GE: He is a current leader in the community and I would say also- actually, he grew up in Pottsville and he had- He is an exterminator. But- but again, where he became a very- The family became a very successful business, and he is really a major- But he's not just a philanthropist in terms of money, he is a philanthropist in the whole way, where he has been a leader in the Boy Scouts, a leader in the Federation, a leader at the synagogue.

CS: He's just-

GE: Right, right, right. Yes, no, I would also say, when you were saying with Bob Hammel, Rance Block might not be in a financial position to give-

CS: But Rance Block is another-

GE: He's also completely committed.

CS: He- He was- Rabbi Greenburg used to say it was a pleasure for him because he watched- you know saw him right through, like me. Rance Block once introduced me, at Rabbi--was it Rabbi Greenburg's 80th birthday? It was the Center, it was at the Center. We were all sold out, we had to take it all out of the Temple and go to the Center. And he introduced me and he said, "When I was in grade school, she was in college. And when I was in high school, she got married. And when I was in college, she became a sisterhood president. Now she's the synagogue president!" But he- Well, Rance is a good boy.

GE: Oh yeah. Very committed.

CS: Bobby and Rance are great. I- I think they're wonderful, both of them. But 02:02:00you know, we had our center, we had our synagogues, and we had our community.

IS: We didn't have to bother with Gentiles, actually.

CS: When we- You know, years and years ago we had that terrible bus accident.

GE: I heard about that, I heard.

CS: That was a terrible, terrible thing.

GE: This was a bus accident on Route 22, is that the one that you're saying?

CS: It was yeah, out past-

GE: It was where it was slippery out by Lafayette.

CS: It was a terrible bus accident and I know it was a Thursday afternoon. And it was my birthday weekend and my daughter, Joanie was coming home, she was at- went for a summer in Richmond. And she was flying home that weekend. And my- 02:03:00Everything Thursday I was working then for Sandy Zales and Nina. I would- But every Thursday afternoon, the girls knew my mother was in the beauty shop around the corner and I would take her home and make a- Get lost for an hour or so with her if she had to go to the Farmers' Market or something. And my father used to play golf on Thursdays with his foursome. Anyhow, I go and I hear these sirens. Sirens after sirens. And I turn on the radio and they are talking about a bus accident and a Jewish day school. And I was- I was then an officer in the temple. I don't know what I was, but Milt Berman was the president, I remember, and he was playing golf. And I said to my mother, "I have to take you home. I- I 02:04:00have to go right down to the Temple, we've got to open up the Temple for these people," and that's what we did. And it was horrible. Seven children died. That night, where we used to buy gas at 17th and Liberty, Mike Tizzio, Irwin called Mike, and he said, "Could you open up the gas station? There are seven hearses that have to be filled up." The parents came, United Airlines flew in- They were extremely religious. They flew in Glatt Kosher food. You can't imagine what went on. It was- It was the most horrible thing and kids were in the hospital for weeks here. Parents and people opened up their homes and their hearts to them.

GE: When- when- was that in the-? I did hear of it. I don't know if that was the '70s?

IS: It was a long time ago.

CS: I think it's in the archives, but- I was president from '64 through '67. It was probably the late '60s or early '70s. Wait, Joanie graduated from high school, wait a minute. Anne was class of '67, Irene was '69, Joanie in '71. So this was 1970 because it was the- she went between her junior and senior year.

GE: I knew it was before I came to town.

CS: That's when it happened. It was terrible.

GE: Yeah, I heard of that.

CS: And when I saw my daughter get off that plane, I want to tell you- How- How many parents look at a bus's tires when kids go away? You know, when I saw that red and white laundry bag come in front of her, I broke into tears. I wasn't- I 02:06:00couldn't see, I couldn't stop.

SCB: Was she on that bus?

CS: No, no. She was at school coming- She was at a summer in Richmond program.

SCB: Right, right, I just wanted to clarify that.

IS: It was from a Jewish day school from Lawrence, Long Island.

CS: Five points, five points in New York.

SCB: Were the students on a class trip or did they board there?

CS: They were on a field trip. They were taking them up to Lancaster County.

GE: I think it was raining. Was it raining or something?

CS: I don't know, I don't think it was, no.

SCB: Those curves are horrible.

GE: Do you know how now it's like ridged. That's why. That's when it was put in.

CS: It was just terrible. I mean- That's what I mean. The community, our 02:07:00community, came together so fast; I couldn't believe it. I called Betty Griff. Do you know Betty?

GE: No.

CS: Well she used to be great in the kitchen. She came down and she was like a general. She caught him eating a roll and she told him, "You were told to set the table!" You know, we served food for these people constantly. And the rabbis all came together.

SCB: They came in from Long Island.

CS: Yeah.

SCB: The families came from Long Island.

IS: They didn't know which kids were killed. Nobody knew. All they heard was that seven kids killed on the bus and the parents didn't know if it was their child or not.

CS: They were finding out when they got here.