Martin Goldstein, July 16, 2013

Interview with Martin Goldstein, July 16, 2013

SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is July 16th, and this is an interview with Martin Goldstein, and interviewers are Susan Clemens-Bruder first, and then Gail Eisenberg, on the Garment and Textile Industries. And I might be asking you some questions that seem sort of as if I should know the answers or whatever, but for the future, that's why we want to get everything down on the- on the tape.

MARTIN GOLDSTEIN: Yes, I understand.

SC: First of all I'd like to have you put yourself in your own personal content. What's your full name?

MG: Martin Goldstein.

SC: Okay. And where and when were you born?

MG: I was born in New York, in 19- in August 22nd, 1925.

SC: Oh. And where in New York? What- Do you remember your address?

MG: Yes, yes I do--only because my mother kept talking about it. Martin Goldstein, let's see, 555 Green Avenue, Brooklyn, New York.

SC: Brooklyn.

MG: That's- That's strange, I don't know how I remember that -- because she always talked about it.

SC: So you lived there, what was your educational history?

MG: I graduated high school.

SC: Okay. Where did you go to elementary school, junior high school, and high school?

MG: I went- I went to Raub Junior High School and then Allentown High School, and that's- that was the extent of my education.

SC: When did you move to Allentown from Brooklyn?

MG: Well let's see, I was born in [1925]--1927.

SC: So your family moved. Did they- Did they move to change businesses? Did they move for another reason? To join family?

MG: They moved- They moved because the- the business- they had a job- They had a 00:02:00job at Arcadia Knitting Mills. And they were five brothers, and they decided that is was- They had quite a business, and they decided that it would be better to build in Allentown, where labor was cheaper. So they moved- Came- They came here--I guess that's- I guess that's in... They built- They built the Arcadia Knitting Mill at 8th and Pittston St. It's an L-shaped building, which still stands today--five stories high.

SC: So you went, first of all, to elementary school here? You were two when you moved?

MG: Yes.

SC: And- And would you repeat what elementary school you went to?

MG: I went to Raub Junior High School, and then went to Allentown High School, 00:03:00at that time. It's Allen today, but Allentown at that time.

SC: And did you have a particular interest in high school?

MG: No, I just the regular- the regular general curricula- curriculum.

SC: Did you do any educational work beyond high school?

MG: No, nothing else.

SC: And also, where have you worked from the- your very first job, whether it was a paperboy or whatever, your very first job all through your life?

MG: Very first job was when--before the malls--I worked at the- the- for example hat stores. You know, the old lady hat stores? Not old lady--ladies hat stores.

SC: In olden times?

MG: In olden times, right. And just like a stock boy, I made--you're going to laugh--it's maybe 18-20 cents an hour, that was good at that time.

SC: Do you remember how old you were when you started working there?

MG: I was probably 16.

SC: And after working there, when did you leave the hat store?

MG: Oh from there, let me see--what did I do? I worked at like an upholstery place--Lang's Upholstery--for some time, and over there- Well there was different odd jobs, and I did different things, it's all depended.

SC: Do you remember where Lang's was? Where it was located?

MG: Yeah, he opened up a place at 6th and Lehigh Street. Yeah, that was- that 00:05:00was his place of business.

SC: So after Lang's and some of the odd jobs that you did, do you remember any of the odd jobs that you did just to make money?

MG: Yeah, I worked at- What was the name of that? "Allentown--" It just doesn't come to me, it doesn't come to me right away, I'm trying to get the name. Well anyway, what they did there, it was like a- It was also woodworking. They made- they made- they made- But more complete. They did I think what's called 00:06:00"American Houses." And over there, I did- I'm going a little blank, I don't know.

SC: But it was a woodworking place?

MG: Yeah, it was a woodworking place but they also had- I think they were making prefabricated homes.

SC: Do you remember about what year that was? Just sort of general decade?

MG: Let's see, about what- what year that was, let's see. 19- Probably-- Maybe in the late '30s, just about 1940 maybe.

SC: And there- I think there were Sears houses- There are some Sears houses too in Allentown-

MG: Sears?

SC: Yeah, there were some prefab Sears houses in Allentown, too.

MG: I don't know too much about that.

SC: I don't think there's too many, but they are out in the West end of Allentown.

MG: Right.

SC: So any other jobs that you worked until you went into your family's business?

MG: No, there were- I didn't- I didn't- I'm really not prepared on my own to tell you everything about myself.

SC: That's fine, that's fine. Just, you know, if you remembered, it's fine, if not, don't worry.

MG: I- We did have- I can't think, I can't think of that, I didn't prepare on that.

SC: That's fine, that's fine. So can I ask you some questions about your own family background? So what do you know about your parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents, any- as far back as you know? Where they were born?

MG: Well my father- my father was born in Russia and my mother in Poland.

GAIL EISENBERG: And their names?

MG: And their names were Morris and Sarah. I believe what he did--see, this is some of the--I believe he moved, he must have moved to Poland later on, and he was with my- He met my mother at about the age of 14.

SC: So they relocated from Russia to Poland.

MG: And she was- Yeah. She was working in an ice cream parlor, and they courted for about 4 years, you know. He says, "I fell in love with her because she was always laughing. I'd introduce her to somebody," he says, "and she walked away 00:09:00laughing. You just couldn't- I just couldn't- She was such a happy person." Actually, that followed throughout her life. She was great among all of us--to help us out.

SC: Did they come to the United States together?

MG: Yes, they did. They were born--I don't know how true it is--but they always said their birthday was April 20th, 1898.

SC: Do you know about what year they left Poland, Russia, to come?

MG: They came to this country--what do I have? Let's see. I think... Do I have it? No, that's when they were in Paris. No, that's when they were married; this 00:10:00is when Libby was born and so forth.

GE: Was Libby born here or there?

MG: Libby was born there.

GE: Okay, so it's after.

MG: She was born- You got it, that's right, you're smart, you got it. She was born 1919.

SC: Do you want to read that? Does that talk about your family background?

MG: Yeah, I could. My parents, Morris- Morris... They courted, like I said, they courted in 1914, they were married 1918. Libby was born in 1919. Martin, I was born in 1925, and Gloria, 1931. So we're all 6 years apart. My mother, Sarah, told me that her father died when he was 28 years old. Her mother was pregnant 00:11:00with her at the time, so she never saw her father. So this was- So it goes on to say, "growing up without a father, mom's mother had to find work to support the family. So she sold milk, carrying a 5-gallon jug"--you can imagine, 5-gallon jug--"door to door, pouring out portions to each neighbor. My grandmother worked 'til noon, then she taught my mother how to sew. And they sewed 'til 12 o'clock at night." And my mother could use those- on those pedal machines, and she was so good that she could make almost anything. She taught her everything. She- Anybody, anything we wanted, she- we needed, she did for us. I didn't have to worry about shortening pants or whatever.

SC: Was your grandmother's husband still alive or was she a widow also? And then-

MG: My grandmother- Which grandmother?

SC: Sarah's mother

MG: Oh Sarah's mother- He was- She was- Yeah he died I think- Well I said he died.

SC: At 28.

MG: At 28, but she remarried, and they lived in New York for a few years. That's where tey spent a lot of their time. Let's see, when did they come here?

SC: In 1918, did you say?

MG: No, 1919- They came here I would say about 19- 1921.

SC: So it was your mother and her mother and the man that she married, another man that she married, before coming here?

MG: Yeah, they came- Let me see. Okay, I got more of it. In 1921 my parents came to America. At that time you needed a sponsor to come to this country. The Morrison's, they were uncles of my father and family, and they were the sponsors for both my dad and my uncle and their families. A job at the knitting mill, working 12-hour nights was waiting for them in New York. A job, naturally, was 00:14:00required at that time or you couldn't come here. My mother, father, and sister, Libby came over as the boat- on the boat called the "The Lapland." Dr. Reinhart joined his four other brothers--he even gave up his practice because he was so enticed by the business.

SC: Who was Dr. Reinhart?

MG: Dr. Reinhart, believe it or not, he was the- One of 5 brothers who- who- who joined, like I said, joined the business now. He was, like I said, enticed by that-- they came here, they built that building at 8th and Pittston Streets. So 00:15:00in 1927, a large L-shaped, five stories building was built in Allentown. At present time, it's an apartment building. This was built by the Reinhart brothers from New York who came here because of cheaper labor. Let's see, what else?

SC: And were the Reinhart's your dad's family?

MG: No.

SC: They were your mother's- That was your mother's-

MG: Nobody, nobody, they were no relatives of ours. They were no relatives at all. They just got, you know, to get work, you came from the other country, you were just lucky to get any kind of work, so that's- They weren't educated. My father had just had, maybe, not any formal schooling -- or my mother. So, and that was common at that time.

SC: And so after World War I, it was tighter, it was really harder to come here 00:16:00from Europe than it had been before World War I.

MG: Well after World War I. Yes, yes.

SC: Yeah, after World War I. So that makes so much sense, that you really- that they had to have sponsors, etc., and have a job.

MG: The Reinharts asked my father and uncle to join them in the new building in Allentown. The Arcadia Knitting Mill became the second largest knitting mill in the US. The knitting mill in Pittston, NJ was the largest, so... It didn't mean anything to them because they were workers, and that was before the Union. As you might expect, wages were low at the time. My father and uncle, both foreman, made 10 cents an hour more than the other workers. There were like I said no 00:17:00unions, so they paid what they wanted. But what he had- The good thing was that foremen were not laid off, so I never knew there was a- a Depression. You could understand to me there was always food on the table. I also knew because I heard them discuss the budget at the end of the week how we are going to make things go. But they always managed. And one thing he said we're going to do was have a vacation. We went away to the mountains one year and the shore the next and it was always- There was always, always good times.

SC: So your dad was a foreman?

MG: Yeah, he was a foreman and my uncle was, too.

SC: Both of them. And were they foreman because of working so well in New York 00:18:00and then being invited down?

MG: Right, that's why they came, yeah, right.

SC: Did they ever go beyond foreman in that business?

MG: No. You mean personally?

SC: Personally, the two of them.

MG: Yeah. They, that's- that's- Let me see, do I have--? They were unionized, Arcadia was unionized during the- during the war years. My dad and uncle received unemployment compensation after the business closed.

SC: When did it close?

MG: It closed, let me see, 1940- About 1940. For a couple of years they had a 00:19:00Victory Garden. You know? And it was time to get a job and they decided to go into the business.

SC: So during the war, they had a Victory Garden, during World War II?

MG: During the war, they had a Victory Garden. Before that the other people, you know, when you were laid off you had nothing--you had to go for, I forget, what was it called at the time? There was a name for that.

SC: Well, it would be--not unemployment--insurance, at that time.

MG: No, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be. It'd be some kind of aid you'd get. A lot of people were ashamed of this, they figured this was wrong, yet there were 00:20:00no jobs.

SC: And so 1940 was right before World War II started. You know, at '40-

MG: In 1941 the war started.

SC: Did the business start up again? Did they actually- They went into business for themselves, right after the Victory Garden. Was that in the '40s?

MG: Yeah, they called it- They went into the business in 19- I would say '43, was it?

SC: During the war.

MG: They called the business, "Walgo Knitting." Wald and Goldstein.

GE: I'm sorry, say the name again.

MG: W-A-L-G-O. Walgo.

GE: Walgo.

SC: So, when--just back up, because we'll go into the business- more of the business questions a little bit later, but to go back, do you know any other 00:21:00names in your family? Any names, your mother's maiden name, grandparents on both sides?

MG: Well let's see, my father, Pop Morris, let's see, he had- He was one of five children, all came to America, five children. There was Jeanette, May, Francis, and Al.

SC: So that was your mother's mother's family?

MG: I know their Jewish names, too.

SC: Oh good.

MG: I don't know if you need that.

SC: Sure, sure.

GE: This is your father, Morris. These are his siblings?

MG: Yeah, right. Morris's name was Moshe, and Jeanette was Shandyl. May was Malkeh. M-A-L-K-E-H. And Francis was Frumeh, and Al was Avraham. It was Abraham, 00:22:00but at that time-

GE: That's the Yiddish name.

MG: At that time he tried not to- not to- He was in the gold business of some type. A gold portion studio, he made gold inlays and things like that.

SC: Did he do that in Poland?

MG: My father's brother? Yeah.

SC: Yeah, in Poland.

MG: No, he came to this country and right away, the uncles that helped bring him over here said they- the best thing to do is to go to school, and you'll go to like a dental laboratory. So that was- that was pretty good. That was one of the few people that got a good education.

SC: So all of their last names originally was Goldstein.

MG: That's right.

SC: Okay. How about your mother's maiden name?

MG: My mother's maiden name was Surowitz.

SC: Can you spell that?

MG: S-U-R-O-W-I-T-Z. S-U-R-O-W-I-T-Z. And she- she was one of one, two, three-- I think she was one of six, but her youngest- Her- One of her younger- One of her younger- Her brother died in Europe, and that was a terrible tragedy because he was a young man. So I would say, let's see, she was one of six.

GE: And what were those names?

MG: Sarah, Paulie, Aaron, Lazar, and Chaya Freidel. That was all we knew her by so I don't know- Sarah's name was Sorah, Sorah Faigel, my mother's. She had a middle name. She always complained, "And why do you- Why I have a middle name? Because when I came on the boat they thought two people were coming on. "So they gave her trouble. She never gave us middle names. She says, "Because of that they had trouble getting her on the boat." Well anyway-

SC: And- and- Am I right about the fact that Sarah's mother remarried? Did she remarry? I'm a little confused about that.

MG: Yes, Sarah's mother remarried.

SC: She did. Was- Was that a different name then Surowitz?

MG: Yeah, yeah- Wait a minute. Her name was Surowitz.

SC: Was that her second married name, maybe?

MG: No, yeah, her- Her name was Surowitz. I never thought of it that way, the second name, but it had to be because she was from the other generation.

SC: And- And did her mother have any other- other children by her second husband? You don't know- Do you know his name?

MG: No, she had no other children, that was it.

SC: No other children and that was it, yeah. So do you know anything about where- Any more about where they lived and worked or where they worked? Any of the family members, uncles, cousins, grandparents, do you know any other jobs that they held? And it's only- You sometimes see patterns, and that's why I'm 00:26:00asking that.

MG: Any jobs that-

SC: Other members of the family had. One was in dental work and gold, and- Were there any others?

MG: Yeah, my mother's brother, he was always- He worked in a hat business. He didn't have his own business, though, he was- They made hats. But he had a business sense and a mind. And he went into- He opened- He bought a grocery store--you know they had the old fashioned corner stores--and he'd build it up and then sell it. He did it a number of times and he made quite a bit of money. Once you build them up and have a good clientele, then things go your way and you made- made out well.

SC: And any others that you remember? Any other family members and what they-

MG: Yeah, see-- Here's what the problem was, a brother and a sister along with children and grandchildren died in the Holocaust. That's from my mother's side. That was a tragedy. My mother never- She took it very hard. She- She- I can't talk about it. When she looked at the- She used to watch television, and she'd see something, you know, there was always- My dad and I says, "Listen, we want to see it. We're gonna wanna, we want to see it. We want to know what happened." So I never- Whenever I had a chance to look at it I- I did. Thirteen people, and she knew about that, and was- it's heart-wrenching. And the one brother, she said to him before, she says, "I want you to come here, Lazar." He said, "I have a letter business," and he says, "I'm making out well." He didn't know what 00:28:00Hitler had planned. See, in the beginning it wasn't- it wasn't believable. Who could do some of the things he said he would do, just wouldn't- It wouldn't be imaginable. But he did.

SC: So in as far as when the people who did come to Allentown--your mother, and your dad's family, some of the brothers that came to Allentown--where did they live in Allentown?

MG: You mean my parents?

SC: Yeah, your parents-

MG: They moved to where Cossie- Remember Cossie Snyder's?

GE: Oh, on 7th Street?

MG: Yeah, on 7th Street. Right next door, right around there, they built- There was an apartment, they had an apartment. And I- That's when they came to Allentown, I was two years old, so Libby was let's see eight by then. And then 00:29:00they moved to 7th and St. John's, right near the Good Shepherd Home, in an apartment, a corner home. We often pass it. So they started- I think I started first grade there, or something like that, after a few years, and then Jefferson School, we went to over in the East Side; and then we moved over to Fulton Street, the 300 block, on Fulton Street, 309 S. Fulton. We lived there maybe 35 years and then ended up- And then someone bought our house, so we had to move out. And those were bad years, that- that was around the Depression years, 00:30:00things like that.

SC: So you rented then?

MG: So we, yeah, so then we- But then we were forced to- My father said we're not going to just move out, we're going to go to a- move into the corner house at Fulton- at Fulton and Fairview. And we lived there, altogether, between the two houses, another 15 years, until we lived maybe 48-50 years over there. We were about- I would say one of the last Jewish people that moved out of the old neighborhood.

SC: So you were in the old neighborhood.

MG: We were in the old- Where it was little Israel. Where the Jews lived there on 15th, 16th, 17th Street, 18th Street.

SC: This is tape 2 and could you start with that, who actually didn't come and 00:31:00who was lost in the Holocaust?

MG: My parents--my mother and dad came to-came to America, and her- and her sister and her brother--her sister, Paulie and her brother Aaron, Aharon in Jewish.

SC: But the Lazar-

MG: And the Lazar and Chaia Freidel and their- their children and grandchildren, whoever, we know- we know- we know a total of about 13, because there were so many years, and they married, and then they- But they were all gone, there was nobody- After the war, there were- there were nobody that were alive, because we would have brought them over. But there was nobody there. There was nobody 00:32:00left--so they- really was bad.

SC: So just to talk a little bit more about- You lived down in the old Jewish neighborhood and- for a long time, and were one of the last families to leave. Then you moved to the west- You moved to the west? Could you tell me again what was the address of when you moved west, to west Allentown, further west?

MG: What year they moved there, let's see-- I- You mean- moved- moved-

SC: Out of the old Jewish neighborhood.

MG: Well, we lived there almost all our lives. I'm only here- I'm only here, 00:33:00let's see, 20-- I'm here 26 years.

SC: So you stayed down in that area?

MG: So I was there, I was there go back 26 years.

GE: Until the 1980s?

MG: Yeah, 19- 1980s, let me see, I can't figure it out right off hand.

SC: Well, just generally, that's fine. So what was the Jewish community like when you were young? And how has it changed over time?

MG: Well, first of all, there were- Most of the Jewish people knew each other pretty well. You knew all the Jewish people. It was, the Temple was small -- we had a small Temple at 12th and Walnut St. And around 1950 they decided to build that temple, a big temple.

SC: Just for the record, what Temple was that?

MG: Temple Beth El.

SC: Yes. So you went to the old Temple Beth El?

MG: Yes, from a place that was like a twin house, for maybe a hundred whatever it was, it could hold a hundred people or so, to a, well, a very large temple.

SC: Do you know the address of the original Temple?

MG: I would say 12th and Walnut Street, the corner of-

SC: 12th and Walnut Street, at the corner.

GE: So not 12th and Chew--12th and Walnut?

MG: 12th and Walnut, definitely 12th and Walnut.

SC: And then-

MG: Right down the street was the Funeral Home--Bachman, Bachman Funeral Home. At the time, there were no other Jewish funeral people, you know. So that's 00:35:00where- He took care of the burials.

SC: Do you have any memories of when you were a child in that neighborhood? Any really bright memories?

MG: Well, I know we played ball in the street. We played touch football in the street, there was a car here and a parked car there--a car everywhere--but not- not to the extent that you couldn't play. You just, when a car passed by, it wasn't completely a morgue, but it was a lot different than it is today.

SC: Did your family have a car?

MG: In 1940, my father bought a 1937 Chrysler.

SC: And do-

MG: That was a big day. He used to walk to work. All the way down to Arcadia Knitting Mill, down 15th Street, to Lawrence Street, Lawrence Street all the way 00:36:00up to where Mack is. And that's where his work was. Walked to work and walked home, it took him 20-25 minutes. Snow, rain, and sleet--he was never too sick to go to work.

SC: Do you have any other memories of your father?

MG: Yeah, my father-- Well, he was a hard worker and took care of the family the best he could. Like I said, he always wanted to go on vacation, made sure of that. And we often went to New York on weekends for our day- our Sunday excursion. Believe it or not, there was- there were specials. You went on the train the- the- the Lehigh Valley Railroad. One dollar, back and forth to New 00:37:00York. One dollar to go to New York, back and forth. But they filled the train and then your windows were open and they were steam engines. And I had to wear a suit, so I wore long sleeves, white sleeves, and had the window open and it would get black from the soot, from the- But we had great times there because we visited my grandmother. And when she came to visit, my mother's mother says- my mom says, "You come live with us." And just between us, I don't think that my grandmother- my mother really wanted my grandmother to live with us. But she was- there was such- she was such a good person and my grandmother was so nice 00:38:00that- But my grandmother says, "No, an old person doesn't belong with the young- the young people." She was a smart woman, really sharp. So that and she did, she- we went- They had the Bialystoker Home she-

GE: Bialystoker. Is that where they were from, Bialystoker?

MG: And there was a home in New York named the Bialystoker Home. And we came to visit my grandmother there, you know. She said, "That's the place for me." And she was always happy. So we'd go there, we took her out, they'd go to a- go to a- a cafeteria--well that was something. She had those long stockings and she put a piece of hard bread in those stockings, and my grandmother said, "What are you doing?" She pulled it out, she said, "I brought bread along." She says, "You're going to a--!" And it was a Kosher, in New York. A Kosher, let's say, 00:39:00what kind of a buffet? Not a buffet.

SC: Like a Horn and Hardart?

MG: Yeah, but it was Kosher. She wouldn't go anywhere else.

SC: Do you think she put the bread in her stocking because of being in Europe, you know, for such a long time?

MG: Yeah, probably, probably. She looked at her, she didn't even smile, I remember that. I says, "You know," I says, "what- what- what is she doing?" But you know what, they had no money. They- There was no such thing as Saturday night, you go to a movie or something like that. There was no- To her, if they- If the family had enough to eat and everybody was together--my- my- my mother said that the father said there was times when they didn't have enough food, that they would take- Maybe once a week, they would have meat, and cut it up. 00:40:00Portion-wise it really- it wasn't a lot. Because everything- They had no money and everything was expensive.

SC: Do you- Did you- Were you involved in the Jewish community when you were a youth? Were you- Did you-

MG: Well, I had a- I was Bar Mitzvahed, but I think people were more religious that time, you know? But we always, my dad always, my mother always observed the holidays. And so- What we did was- Passover, she had a- we had a Seder [a ritual feast associated with Jewish holiday of Passover]. And my aunt and uncle--my mother and father, aunt and uncle were pretty much tied together all the time, they always went together.

GE: That was your father's brother?

MG: My mom- my father's sister. My father's sister, Jeanette- the Walds, Jeannette Wald and Joe Wald, Joseph Wald.

SC: Were- Were there any youth activities at- that were connected with the Jewish community at that time? When you were a teenager did you have social activities? Or were you working too hard at that point?

MG: You know I'm trying to think about what activities- what activities we had... We went to the- Well the Jewish Community Center, which is at 6th and 00:42:00Chew. We- We often went there. I know that I was a member there. And we'd walk from Fulton Street to all the way down to 6th and Chew to go, take gym. It was $20.00 a year for my membership.

SC: So did you play sports?

MG: Yeah but I played, you know, intramural basketball and things like that, yeah. And there was swimming at the old Jewish Community Center. Trying to think of what other- Well pretty much- At the Center, or at the Temple, we went- more so than today on a Saturday morning, and- and a Friday night--more so a Saturday.

SC: Did you date people in the community?

MG: Me?

SC: Yes.

MG: I didn't do a lot of dating, no. I'm a- I'm a bachelor. I wasn't much of a ladies man.

SC: So, anything else you did in your youth for a social life or any other activities?

MG: Sounds like we didn't do anything.

SC: No, that's fine -- life was slower then. We're all crazy now!

MG: That's what it sounds like.

SC: No, not at all! Did- Did you-

MG: I belonged to B'nai B'rith at that time. And at that time B'nai B'rith was 00:44:00very active. It was nice going to the center or some place, after they moved to the new place--and the old. And that I would say, in general, the Jewish community were, were a lot closer than they are today. Because so many people, an influx of people from all over, maybe they're close in different ways among themselves, but- When they built that new- the new Temple, that was a good thing.

SC: The newest Temple?

MG: Yeah, the new one that I mentioned before. That- That was- It helped unite a lot of people.

GE: The one at 17th and Hamilton?

MG: The one at 17th and Hamilton, yeah.

SC: But not the one that's- Newest one, yeah.

MG: Not this one, right. That was good for years, yeah. Except that they needed 00:45:00more, more space for schooling and things like that, and a newer neighborhood.

SC: Did you become involved, a little bit later on, in any other organizations as you got older? Any Jewish organizations, any community organizations?

MG: I guess the- Trying to think of-

SC: This- And continuing, so Al Goldstein changed his name to "Gold." Was it for business for the fact that he was in- in-

MG: No, the idea was at that time Jewish people were very shy about using their name, because it was- It just wasn't a good thing, you know? There was 00:46:00Anti-Semitism and things like that.

SC: Did you experience any Anti-Semitism in Allentown at all?

MG: Not me personally. I- I was- was always thankful of that. It always sort of scared me. You went around with the idea, always- It something that was in the back of your mind. But the people I was with, I never encountered any, any of that trouble.

SC: Were you friends with some of the-

MG: My one sister did, when we were- we lived in the old house on Fulton Street, the original house because we lived in two different homes on that street. But she experienced something that- She says one of her neighbors, a young girl, she was maybe 10 years, said, "Take your dirty Jewish paper and take it in the house." So my- She went in crying or something like that, and my mother went and 00:47:00talked to her mother, and her mother didn't want to know anything about it. And I was surprised because, otherwise, I thought she was a nice person. But, that to me, wasn't very sensitive, it wasn't- wasn't nice. So, there was- There was- There were people around me that I saw- You know- But we mostly played ball together and it wasn't too bad.

SC: And were the people that had some Anti-Semitism, were they Pennsylvania Dutch--the "dominant" Pennsylvania Dutch--or were they Eastern European?

MG: I- It just was anybody that wasn't Jewish, you just didn't know. With the kids, first of all you thought it was going on in the house--you know. "Ethnic favoritism" or something like that.

SC: Were you friendly with some of the older families in- in Allentown? Like the 00:48:00Samuels' family--they- they- I think they lived around Hamilton and probably about 17th or 18th. Samuels, you don't remember?

MG: No, I don't know, I don't know, I can't think of the Samuels, not off hand? What was his first name?

SC: Well there's one--let me think, let me think now-- Abram Samuels? No?

MG: No. Senderowitz?

SC: Sin-derowitz?

MG: Senderowitz.

SC: Senderowitz, okay.

MG: Yeah. Beryl, everyone said, that's a good catch. Beryl Senderwitz, she lived in a home on Hamilton Street, that big mansion home, that's what I called them, right down from the Temple. Beautiful home. Every once in a while, she made parties. That's the one thing we did have, the Jewish girls often had- Who was 00:49:00it, let me see, I can't think of some of these names.

SC: Well if you think of them at some point, let us know, give us a call and let us know. That would be fine. And- Or just you know or we could even come back, if you think of some more, we could come back another time. So how- How do you think- You mentioned a little bit how the Jewish community has changed over time, being more cohesive in the early years, and then maybe even more tight now but in a different way. But has it changed in any other way?

MG: I think in general that people are freer today than before so I don't think you're defensive like you had to be in those days. I belong to the Mora Club, 00:50:00Men of Retirement Age, and I may be the only Jewish person, probably the only Jewish person who ever worked there- that ever joined. But it's a nice organization, men and any- I feel- I feel comfortable around the Christian people as well as- and I think that's pretty much the norm today. It was different then. See it's- It's not acceptable today.

SC: So you were saying that things have definitely changed, that you worry about relationships outside the Jewish community a little bit. So what- what families were you friendly with in the Jewish community? Like the Mishkins?

MG: Families I- Like I said, my mother and dad, and my aunt and uncle were 00:51:00pretty much- They went out together. A good time was a Saturday night movie, you know, that's what you did. Every week. It was fifty cents--it was probably cheaper in the early years, it was less than that. And the way- What they did- What we did at weekends, now that I think of it, went on picnics. My mother would pack up a cooler, you know, with all the sandwiches and all the- My- My mother, my father, my sisters, and their husbands, in the early years, and some of them, before they had children, and sometimes after they had children. They were all small. We would go to Cedar Beach or- Not Cedar Beach, Lehigh Parkway a lot. Yeah. And picniced. We'd get a table early and that- that- that was it. 00:52:00That's a good time.

SC: Did- As you got older, and- and in the decades since the '80s, have you been friendly with different families yourself?

MG: Me? Well I had a friend- I was pretty- I wasn't really a big social bug. I was very interested in the Friendship Circle in recent years, I mean the last 15 years or so, and that seems to be one of my big interests. And I always enjoyed going to the Center and being around people.

SC: So were there any specific families-?

MG: The friend- The friend actually- Like I said my mom and dad, aunt and uncle, they were together all the time. And I don't think they looked for any outside, 00:53:00too much of that. So we didn't- They didn't socialize in- like some people do. It was pretty much private. But myself, I had a friend, Irvin Jacobson, for many years. And we were together, we went around, we went whatever it was, on vacation in different places.

SC: Or as they say nowadays, "you hung with him."

MG: I hung with him, that's right! Yeah, you hung out.

SC: So I'm going to stop now and I'm going to switch over to Gail.

GE: Okay so now what we are going to do is talk a little bit about the business. And if I understand correctly, and you tell me, I think you said it was around 1943, right, that your dad and his brother-in-law went into the business. So do you want to just tell me whatever you know about that, around 1943. So it was your dad, Morris, and what's his brother-in-law's name again?

MG: Joseph- Joseph- Joe Wald.

GE: Walz. W-A-L- How do you spell his last name?

SC: D-S?

MG: W-a-l-d.

GE: Wald. W-A-L-D. Okay. And so the two of them had been already working for many years as foremen at Arcadia, and now they went into their own business.

MG: They went into their own business. I might have some notes on that.

GE: Sure, you can take your time.

MG: Where are we at? The business?

GE: Yeah, so it would be about 1943 that they started the business. And what was the name?

MG: Walgo.

GE: Walgo. Okay. And what were they making?

MG: You mean-?

GE: They were a knitting mill.

MG: Walgo Knitting Mills. They went- They went on- They went to New York for business, but when they went into business, at that time... it was- it was- the picnic was over. This is what they were told when they went to New York. Forget about the old people, people that had ran the business years ago, had nothing, gotten- During the war, they were making money like- They get very wealthy, that's it, because there was no price- You could work for almost any price you wanted.

GE: Right, the demand was so high.

MG: The demand was so high, it was- it was- it was big. But people didn't have the machines. They were making war machines and everything else so everything 00:56:00stopped, other people went into the service, they just- they just didn't have it. But after the war, it stopped almost immediately, because people started to produce and then the price was low and if you were a contractor like my father, they would go there and all, and they always said, they used the expression, "Suck on a herring." That means this is all I can give you. The price is going to be very minimal and you're just lucky to make a living, but as a contractor-

GE: This was now like 1943? This was still during the war or after the war?

MG: This is after the war.

GE: Okay, so after the war.

MG: After the war, because during the war, you couldn't- they couldn't do anything about it.

GE: Right, so did the business start during the war or after the war?

MG: No, it started after the war.

GE: Okay, so they went into business not like 1943 but more like 1947 or 00:57:00something like that?

MG: Maybe- During the- No, during the war, yeah, because- No they didn't go in, they must have gone in 1947 or so.

GE: Or '46, you know, maybe- maybe shortly after the war. And when you say they were a "contractor", tell us a little bit more what that means.

MG: A contractor means you don't buy the- you don't buy- you don't make the goods, you sell it--you do it for somebody else. You're making- You make a- Someone will send you the yarn, instead of you buying the yarn, they will send it in--and say I need 5,000 lbs. on such and such a machine, and- or they could send in 50,000 lbs. And you made different things, you made cotton knit goods, 00:58:00like flat goods--t-shirts, stripes, like you're wearing right there. And then there is also rib cloth, which is the underwear cloth, on the- on the ribbed machines, and that ran on a cable. There was- Each machine was on a belt run by a big motor and it ran on a long line of machines, old-fashioned machines. Later on there were people who went in and bought individual machines. But at that time, they ran on the old style belt machines.

GE: Okay, okay, and so they made a lot of this type of- a lot of t-shirts.

MG: They made a lot of t-shirts, right. They didn't make it, they made the cloth 00:59:00for t-shirts. They made the cloth for t-shirts.

GE: Okay, so they didn't make the final good, they were just cloth makers.

MG: After the cloth was made, they were- they got instructions of where to ship it. Maybe, you know, go back to a warehouse for them or you sent it to an individual customer.

GE: So they really made the fabric that went-

MG: They made the fabric. It came off the machines and that was the end of it. Then it went to a dye house, we sent it to a dye house, if it wasn't colored, originally colored. But if it was unfinished goods, it had to be sent to where it was processed in a dye house.

GE: So you were the step before the dye house?

MG: Right--the step before the dye house.

GE: You- You made the material. And what was it that you got from the company- 01:00:00What was your supplier, what were your raw materials? In other words, you made-

MG: Or what was- what was- What we made- made out of? We made out of cotton knit goods. Cotton, polyester, that came in, then there was a certain amount of silk--well that was usually mixed with something else. It wasn't pure silk, like you couldn't- it was too fine, the machines couldn't run that.

GE: Basically, it was some kind of cotton blend, polyester, silk blend that you got--the raw materials. And then you made it into-

MG: We got it on spools.

GE: On spools, okay. Okay. And then you made that into fabric that would then be used to make the clothes, to go to the dye factory.

MG: And from there to a particular customer where they spread the goods.

GE: And made the outfit.

MG: The conscious [?] of what you're saying, it's not- you know, don't worry about it.

GE: Yeah, frankly I don't.

MG: Nothing to worry about, nothing.

GE: All right, so let's see, your uncle and father started the business around- after the war, and they were contractors. Do you know who their customer was, who they were a contractor for?

MG: Only too well. They had- They got connected with Seco Mills, S-E-C-O, and they were a big- These guys were two big, two salesmen, you know, and they ran a pretty good operation. But they had enough work to keep you busy. And my uncle, instead of being a little bit of a gambler and going with maybe less work and harder to find work, but could advance you a lot better, a little easier, they didn't take that route and they stuck with the big guy, and the big guy never 01:02:00paid because he's always giving- he says, "You always got work, you don't have to worry." You know what I mean? Keep the- Keep the machines running.

GE: Right, I see. So it was a very, very small margin you're saying. They always kept the price low.

MG: Right, they didn't pay- They didn't pay enough, they squeezed you on that, because you got the work.

GE: Right, right. There was always work, but- but-

MG: So my uncle was one of the ones- always the one who insisted, "Stay with them, you'll always have work, you have to work." Well okay.

GE: And with your father and your uncle, which one took care of what part of the business? Did they always work together with decisions or-?

MG: Actually, my uncle ran- he ran the office and then he ran certain machines. My dad ran Tompkins machines, which is a special machine, it's made for baby- good for like terry cloth and soft goods like baby cloth. It's a very fine type 01:03:00of machine. Not- Very, very few people in Allentown used the Tompkins machines. But they bought them and my father took care of them.

GE: So they were kind of specialized? The Tompkins, it was like a special-

MG: Well that was special--different than most people made. First of all it was a slow producer and they never wanted to pay the amount of money because it was, you know- Even though everything is relative, if it takes longer to make you got to get paid more. But if you're a manufacturer, you can call the price a little better. You know. But it's- Anyway, that's contracting, and we always- we made a decent living, we were able to...

GE: And so they were in business for how long?

MG: Oh my God. They were-

GE: They started around 1946-47, how long did they keep the business until?

MG: Maybe 35 years or so.

GE: Oh okay, so until about 1980? Around. Does that sound right?

MG: Yeah, yeah.

GE: So until maybe around 1980, something like that. And the whole time, that was their one customer, Seco?

MG: Yeah.

GE: They didn't- They were always supplying for Seco?

MG: -- In his upholstering business. They borrowed money from the bank and bought two knitting machines. The mill was in operation twenty-four hours.

GE: Oh. So they were- They were around the clock?

MG: Each partner alternating twelve-hour shifts, and without making too much 01:05:00money, because how much could you produce? But, that's what they did. And the machines knitted flat goods used for t-shirts, striped and plain. Offered a little more space by Mr. Lang, they purchased rib machines, used mostly for underwear.

GE: So- so they rented space by- from Mr. Lang initially?

MG: Yes, you're right, the upholstery place. Naturally, needing more space for yarn, the basement which was partially dirt filled, Mr. Lang offered to give it- the place rent free if you dig it out. So he was good, he did them a favor, he did them a favor. So we hired a guy, he wheelbarrowed all the dirt out, then hauled it away, got rid of it.

GE: And now they had it, rent free.

MG: They had it rent free for the yarn, because it was small and the amount they could handle- They used to tell them, used to tell the- the- the contractor- the boss- the manufacturer not to send in too much yarn.

GE: Right. Because they could only handle so much.

MG: They could only handle so much. And that's not the way it works, because they don't care. You hold- You store it, and when we're ready to use it, you'll- That type of thing. So, but that- They couldn't do it because we were pretty good with them so they figured well, we'll- we'll find a way to manage this, and they helped- worked along with us. Until they got into- What was the next thing they did? They were offered a little more space by Mr. Lang, they purchased a rib machine. Naturally needing space for yarn, the basement which was partially dirt filled... The- It was necessary to get larger to meet the customer's needs. 01:07:00At that time they were knitting striped goods, used- using polyester and cotton and ny- and nylon. I think rather than silk, it was nylon.

GE: Because that's a lot more durable and it had now been invented. So did they buy their own place at some point? Like how long did they stay by Mr.-

MG: They never, never bought their own place.

GE: Okay, so they just- they rented space.

MG: Moving here's- Here's where that started. The moving process began as they moved from Mr. Lang's building to 6th and Lehigh- at 6th and Lehigh, to a large building at 14th and Gordon. They- They occupied the first floor with- with- 01:08:00with seventy to eighty machines.

GE: Oh, seventy to eighty machines? Wow. So they built it really up a lot.

MG: Yeah. The building was sold after working there five to six years. See, there was no way to stay small, otherwise the customer- the contractor- the manufacturer was not going to give you work. You have to grow, you have to grow. They don't allow it. Bethlehem Furniture of Allentown moved to Redline, New Jersey and we rented the building for seven to eight years. Do you remember Bethlehem Furniture?

GE: I- I don't. Where is that located? Bethlehem Furniture?

MG: I don't-

GE: About?

MG: I- I know at Front Street.

GE: Okay. Front Street, and is that in Bethlehem or in Allentown?

MG: No, no in Allentown. Front Street up at the- Somewhere maybe between Gordon and Liberty, it's hard to say exactly where, but somewhere in that area there. For seven to eight years. The next move was a two story building at 4th and 01:09:00Auburn. We rented the first floor, it was a little larger, and we were able to house a few more machines and store yarn.

GE: How many people worked there, about?

MG: Oh my God. Sometimes it's been- In that place they had about 60, 65, 70 people.

GE: Okay. And that was let's say at the peak.

MG: Yeah. The last move- Well around the clock.

GE: Right right right, that's right.

MG: But they all- They ran twelve-hour shifts for a lot of the people--the better knitters. Because you don't have to keep people and pay overtime for people that aren't producing like those that are able to better- do more. You know, handle more machines. Anyway, a good knitter- They got paid not quite what 01:10:00Union wages were, but they got twelve hours. So when the Union came in with the idea of unionizing, naturally, that's what their- They'd come in real early and get the workers before they got in the door--there was a lot of unrest. Because the- Those that wanted the Union were probably a lesser able to do some of the work. Anyway, they fought it off and they never had a Union.

GE: Oh. So it was never a unionized- It was never a Union Shop.

MG: Never a Union Shop, 'cause the guys that worked the twelve hours won out. And I mean my dad and my uncle told them, "Listen, if you're Union, you're going to be paid more, but forget the twelve hours, that's over." So they liked the idea, "Money now--to hell with the future, money now."

GE: Okay, so the employees voted to stay- to keep out the Union Shop.

MG: Right, and it stayed that way.

GE: Okay. And Martin, what were- what did you do in the- in their business?

MG: I was in the shipping.

GE: You were in shipping. Okay, okay.

MG: Yeah, I was in shipping, receiving and shipping, and I never had enough help.

GE: Yeah, well I think that's how it goes!

MG: That's how it goes. Never had enough help. So the last move was at 201 East Hamilton Street, the last move, before it was sold in 1972 to George Krasnov.

GE: Okay, so it was sold in 1972. So they were in the business it sounds like about 25 years? Does that sound about right?

MG: Could be, yeah, yeah, yeah.

GE: Because they started a little bit after WWII and went to 1972.

MG: Right. George Krasnov, a former partner of Surefit Slipcovers.

GE: Okay, so he- So, so- So George Krasnov, did he leave Surefit, or did this become part of Surefit?

MG: No there was a- There was a- The father died and then you know there's children and children's children, so what happened, they broke up and he was left out. And I guess there was some kind of payout, but they never spoke. There was a lot of very- In a business, that's what happens.

SC: Now was Murray Platt with Surefit?

GE: I- You're right, I think Murray Platt was a contractor.

SC: He was a contractor.

MG: Murray Platt, I just nothing- I just know Murray, but I don't- I know there was a million people, I knew everybody I talked to was in textile.

SC: And was Kraznov K-R-A-Z-N-O-V?

MG: K-R-A-Z-N-O-V is correct. Yeah, Kraznov, exactly. [correct spelling is K-R-A-S-N-O-V]

GE: Was there anyone else working in the business? So it was your father, your uncle, and you--was anybody else working in that business from your family?

MG: No.

GE: Just- Just you, and your father, and your uncle.

MG: My father, my dad, uncle, and myself worked for George after he bought it.

GE: Wait a minute, did you say- Your father? Oh, yeah. You, your father, and your uncle all worked for Goerge for a while, I see.

MG: Well that was because- When he bought it, when George bought it. Now what happened- My uncle was loafing around--you wouldn't believe it. He was okay in the beginning but then he sort of didn't care. Well, I said to my father, "George is not going to take this." So what happened? He laid him off. He thought that my father would go too, but it didn't happen that way. My father 01:14:00was running these Tompkins machines, and it was a good thing at the time. Anyway, my uncle stayed for two years, my dad for three, and me for five years, until he closed- And he had to close because of poor business. He called me in the office and he was crying and he said that I'd have to give it up. He says, "I'm sorry, but--" They- He had some good years. When he bought the business, I remember Marilyn- Do you know Marilyn?

GE: I don't, no, I don't.

MG: Well Marilyn Krasnov, his wife, said, "I never saw a business that has no debt." The cleanest business in the world, and they got it- bought it for a reasonable price.

GE: So did you retire at that time? When- when-

MG: No, I didn't retire. Oh yeah, when he closed it.

GE: When he closed.

MG: Yeah, but then I- Then I was- Then I went to different textile places.

GE: So you continued to do shipping?

MG: I continued . . not shipping, no, no, I did different things. I was upstairs, I helped with the spreading and different things, and- But the- the people- People were in trouble, the business wasn't good. So finally I went to a workshop, like a training place, it was on Union Boulevard, I forgot the name of it.

GE: Was this a- Was this a training place for people from textiles or just a training place for-

MG: I think a training place for different work. But they would have- Sometimes lead you to-

GE: Different kinds of jobs and-

MG: Yeah. They- They- They heard what I did and they sent me to a- a suit 01:16:00company. What's the name of it again?

GE: Oh, like where they make suits?

MG: Where they made suits. Not made suits, well, yeah, they did actually. They- They- They didn't actually finish the suit, they made the goods for it. But it was their business.

GE: Okay, okay. So they were manufacturers, is that what you mean by saying "their business"?

MG: What the hell was the name of that place?

SC: So were they contractors?

MG: No, no, they were manufacturers.

SC: They were manufacturers.

MG: They were manufacturers. And there was a union and I worked there ten years.

GE: Oh okay. And was that located here?

MG: I had a training program, that's what led me to it.

GE: And what did you do at that firm? What did you do for them?

MG: I ran a machine, it was like a- a matching machine. I was the only one that ran that machine.

GE: It matches what? When you say a matching machine-

MG: Well you know the stripes are even. So you had a- And I worked there for ten years and it was pretty nice, I- I enjoyed it. It was easier than any of the other things. I was concentrated on one thing and there was a union, and I ended up with a tiny pension. Once a month, I get $62.47.

GE: Right, right. Where- Where was that located?

MG: Textile Amalgamated- That was located in Industrial Park. Industrial Park.

GE: Are they still in business?

MG: No, everybody's out. They were in business a pretty long- They went down South I think in 1992. And I've heard that they- Well, that's a long time ago, and they closed like everybody else. 'Cause they had- What was the name of them?

SC: Amalgamated something?

MG: No, Amalgamated is the- is the union.

SC: The union. Amalgamated-

MG: And that's why-

SC: Amalgamated of-

GE: Amalgamated Workers, Textile Workers?

SC: Clothing and Textile Workers? I can look that up.

MG: Yeah. It's a- It's the- There's that other union, too.

SC: International Ladies Garment Workers?

MG: She's a real sewer!

GE: She's a real historian!

MG: International Ladies Garment Workers is the union? Yeah, sure, International Ladies Garment Workers is the Union.

SC: Look for the union label.

MG: Look for the union label!

GE: Exactly. Do you have any favorite stories about when- your dad and uncle, about the business? Like any stories-

MG: No, only when you leave I'll have a story.

GE: Well you'll be able to tell me if you do.

MG: A famous story . . .

GE: But any favorite story or any interesting story either about something that took place at the business or something with- something with the manufacturer that they were dealing with, something that you observed while you were working, anything that you wanted to- Well how did you feel- Let's say, you worked- you worked there with the other workers. How did you feel the relationship was between the workers and the owners?

MG: That's- They were- They were- I would say not bad. It was- I couldn't say they were terrible. They often came and complained. I often heard about it. Things you know that- "This is the worst place to work." I say, "Any place you work is the worst place." I told- That's what I told them. "I worked," I said, 01:20:00"in other places, too."

GE: How do you- So now- Just like you said, a lot of this has disappeared, you know, textiles, there is no more in this area.

MG: Well price-wise they were-

GE: Right, they went to cheaper labor.

MG: Priced out. That's what everything happened here. That's why there is no manufacturing here. What happened with the automobile industry? They're still doing business.

GE: Yeah, yeah. So far we are still holding our own, but it's certainly not the way we did it- We didn't dominate the way we dominated 50 years ago.

MG: But there's still Ford, Chrysler, and General Motors.

GE: Yes, yes, yes. So I was just wondering from your impressions, the fact that this industry really no longer exists here, what- How do you think that has affected first the Jewish community, the local Jewish community, and second just 01:21:00the Allentown community?

MG: Well I think the Jewish community, where before, a young fella knew where he was going to go--so he went off and went to school, and then joined the business, or went right into the business. And he had a good living, because they were thriving, you know, one way or another they were doing pretty well. A lot of them were manufacturers, so they did very well--like Schneider Manufacturer. Irwin Schneider--they had a wonderful business--sewing plant, they had 100 machines, they were unionized. It didn't matter. They were manufacturers. If you're union, you know it's- it's not always- the union is not going to kill everybody.

GE: So for the Jewish community, you're saying, there was a lot of certainty 01:22:00then? That- That it was something that was clear.

MG: Yeah they had a way- They had a way- A direction to go. And then later on, I guess, for Jewish people, it wasn't the- the only way out. They went to school, they got a good education, they became doctors, they became engineers, their- Education-wise, that's- that's how they did it.

GE: Right, right. Good point, right.

MG: Yeah and what happened, naturally, in the downtown where I originally said I worked Saturdays, changed, became... They opened up malls. In the downtown, every store that was downtown--Williams, Brytes [?], those were the dress shops and hat stores--became- Well, they were closed. And big stores opened up in the 01:23:00malls--department stores. So the little guy was out, the corner store was out, the little guy was- the supermarkets. I'm old enough to see it all.

GE: And so for the Allentown community, certainly all of that changed. How about for the workers? In other words, there were all these jobs and now those types of jobs don't exist. Do you think that matters, are there just- For the workers? Were they-

MG: No, because- Well there are service jobs now, that's not- Certainly it doesn't matter. Because it was no problem getting a job years ago in the Lehigh Valley. Because the Lehigh Valley and surrounding area was all textiles. It was 01:24:00like a domino effect, I'll never forget, when they closed.

GE: Right, and what do you mean "it was a domino effect?"

MG: Well one- One closed after the other. One closed after the other and that was the end of it. The knitting mills, the sewing plants, some of them went down South, there was- Now, for example, Allison Manufacturing--they were big. We got work from them. They went down South and they- they- they were good for a while down there. Finally they sold out--they probably made millions so it didn't matter. But they were one of the big guys around here.

GE: Who owned that?

MG: Schneider.

GE: Oh, is that Schneider.

MG: Yeah.

GE: You know, we did interview [them].

MG: Some of these things must be the same as- what I'm telling you, you heard from them.

GE: But that's good, it's good for us to hear it a few times because it all confirms.

SC: Creates truth. So do- Which Schneider was that? Allison Mills?

MG: Warton? W-A-R-T-- T-O-N? Warton. Yeah, I think W-A-R-T-O-N. [correct spelling is W-H-A-R-T-O-N]

GE: Are they still in town, the family? I don't know them. Like are they still local?

MG: I don't know. I just- Every time I answer a question I wish my other sister 01:26:00was here. Like Gloria, she's-

GE: You know, I should have asked. It would have been a good idea for-for Gloria or Libby to do it with you.

MG: Well they- The only thing is they didn't have-

GE: Correct, direct experience.

MG: Not direct experience alone. They don't have the interest to bother- to bother to remember everything. They don't care that much. I was- It's more of my interest than theirs. But I still think Gloria will read some of this and say, "No, this and this and," you know. Well she- I mean, they could remember, but...

GE: Why do you think- Why do you think the Jews- the Jews in general were somewhat over-represented in textiles? You know many when they came here worked 01:27:00in textiles. Why do you think that is?

MG: Well, they came over here carrying machines.

GE: Right but why- but why- Did they come over here, did your family come over carrying machines?

MG: No, they didn't do any of that. With these I'm talking about sewing machines. If you went into manufacturing at that time, if you wanted a job and had a machine, especially if you did it, it was different!

GE: You could do it I guess even in your little apartment or-

MG: Well- Well- You could do it even in their place. That's right--even in their place. And I think today, believe it not, there are Syrians.

GE: That's what I hear.

MG: You heard that? They have little spots and they're contracting at a- They have no overhead. So they can- they can make the stuff at a- And guess what? I think the government knows about it and they won't even bother them. They are 01:28:00off the street, they're not collecting unemployment. And if they are, they get double. We had a guy who did that and the- the- the unemployment agency came in and took him right off the job.

GE: So what do you think made the textile industry appealing to the Jewish immigrants?

MG: I think it was easy, it was something you could- It was a lot of work. It was- And also, it looked like- I mean, I don't know if I have the answer to that, but it looked like they were able to get started without too much trouble. They had the- They had the machine, they had the way to get in there.

GE: We call that a lot of times "low barriers."

MG: Low barriers! That's right, that's right.

GE: Low barriers to enter.

MG: That's right.

GE: Okay, terrific, terrific.

SC: I have a couple of follow up questions.

MG: Oh I knew it! I knew it! That's okay, I'm not in a rush, I'm not rushing you. I'm retired.

SC: That's- That was one of my questions. When did you retire? How old were you? Or what year?

MG: Didn't I say in here?

GE: That's okay. Well you know what- I think you said '87 when you retired? About '87?

MG: There you go!

SC: Okay, I don't have that down here.

GE: It that about right? You were 62?

MG: This thing don't work. I'll tell you-

GE: Well the reason I said '87, tell me if this is right, you said that you left in '77 and then you said you worked about another 10 years.

SC: Another ten years.

MG: Well I left in 19- Let me see. I moved, I moved in '87 to this house. We moved it-

GE: But the shop that bought you from Krasnov, that happened in '72, right?

SC: Yeah, I wrote down '72.

GE: And he kept your uncle on for two years, your father for three years, and you for five.

SC: Five years.

GE: So that's now '77.

SC: [19]77, and then you worked at other places for a while.

GE: You said about ten years.

MG: Yeah, I worked for ten years.

SC: Okay, so that is '87.

MG: There you go! Something came out! I like that girl, she's mathematically- She got me cornered.

GE: And- And am I right, Uncle Martin, that you were about 62 then when you retired?

MG: Yeah.

SC: What was the address of Lang? The Lang Company, where you rented?

GE: Where you got started.

MG: 6th and- 6th- 6th and Lehigh.

SC: And Lehigh. Okay. That was the one that was 6th and Lehigh, I wasn't quite clear about that. And then 4th and- Was it 4th and Auburn that the one business you worked- Bethlehem Furniture at that-

MG: No, that's 201 East Hamilton Street, Bethlehem Furniture.

SC: Okay. Well what was it on Auburn? "Twelve-hour shift"--one of yours?

GE: Maybe- Maybe that was one of the ones that you rented?

SC: Yeah, one of the ones that you rented? Was it 4th and Auburn, I thought it- I thought you said.

GE: I remember you being in Auburn.

SC: Yeah, well, we can get that from the tape.

MG: Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. You'd better repeat these things. Did Schneider tell you about when they came in and broke- they- broke up all of his machines?

GE: I don't think so.

SC: He mentioned it, he mentioned it.

GE: Irwin?

SC: Yeah.

GE: Salistky did.

MG: No, no, not- not Salitsky.

GE: Schnieder did?

SC: Yeah.

MG: Salistky's dead.

GE: I know, I know. But we interviewed him before. We interviewed him and-

MG: I'm going to live on.

GE: Good.

SC: We'll be back.

MG: I'm going to live on.

GE: His family has very good longevity. His mom and dad were both like in their upper 90's.

MG: To tell you the truth, to tell you the truth, do you know what I did? I had a stock I sold twice, not remembering the first time.

GE: Oh.

MG: So I'm telling you, I'm worried.

GE: No, you're okay.

MG: "You're okay." She's telling me, I'm telling you I'm not okay!

SC: No, you are. Well I have a couple- A couple of other questions. This is going to stop, I'll just write the answers to it. Maybe we'll get one in. What did your family value most, your extended family? These are sort of filmy questions. These are thought questions.

MG: Live a clean, honest life, I think, is very very important. Not- My mother always told me, "Don't come home with a policeman." I said , "I'm safe once he takes me home, Mom." She didn't wanna see me come- come home with a policeman. That to her was--

SC: That's great.