James Hartzell and Georgine Banko, March 6, 2012

Interview with James Hartzell and Jim's sister, Georgine Banko, March 6, 2012

SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is March 6, 2012, interview with James Hartzell, attending Gail Eisenberg and Susan Clemens-Bruder. Should I call you Jim? Jim, could you tell me your full name, where you were born, and just start with that?

JIM HARTZEL: Okay, my full name is James W. Hartzell. I was born in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

SC: And can you tell me the year you were born?

JH: 1932.

SC: 32. And also as far as your family background, as far back as you know-- your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, their names and where they were from, and what they did as far as work will really be helpful just to see a line 00:01:00of work and progress.

JH: Okay, my father's name was George. He was a fireman for the city of Bethlehem. My mother's name was Goldie, and she had worked in the factory when I was in high school. And she eventually became a forelady in that same factory and became a part-owner of it, a silent partner.

GAIL EISENBERG: What did they make?

JH: They make children's clothing.

SC: Okay, so she was in the textiles.

JH: She was in the textile industry then.

SC: And would you repeat the name?

JH: Her name was Goldie.

SC: No, no, the name of the textile industry

JH: It was Acme Children's Wear.

SC: Acme?

JH: In Fountain Hill.

SC: Okay, I've heard of it.

GE: Acme A-C-M-E

JH: A-C-M-E. Fountain Hill. And she was born in the United States and my father was also. But their parents were from Germany. Pennsylvania Dutch-- my father. 00:02:00And my mother was Hungarian.

SC: Do you know what, approximately what year her parents came to the United States?

JH: Oh, I don't know. Sis, do you know?

GEORGINE BANKO: My mom was born in 1911. So I would say, grammy was born probably around 1905.

SC: Okay, that would make sense, yeah.

GB: She was only 15.

SC: When she came? Wow. Do you know about where in Hungary they came from?

GB: Near Budapest but I'm not sure. It was a little village.

SC: Yes, and you don't know anything about their parents if they had any background in the industry, or if they were farmers or anything?

GB: They were farmers.

SC: They were farmers, yeah. So, that was your dad and-

JH: That was our mother.

GE: That was their mother

SC: But your dad was a fireman, do you know what his father did?

JH: His father was a-- I guess he was a bartender, wasn't he?

GB: I think he worked at the silk mill, too.

JH: The silk mill, he worked at the silk mill, that's right.

SC: Wow, yeah.

JH: Silk mill at Goepp Street.

SC: Okay, do you know the name of the silk mill on Goepp Street?

JH: No, I wouldn't know the name.

SC: We could probably find that out. And, so they were in Bethlehem. Your mother's family came to Bethlehem from Hungary?

JH: Correct.

SC: And do you know what her father did?

JH: No.

GB: He died quite young. I don't remember much about him.

SC: Oh, okay, yeah.

JH: Well, it was hard tracing back; we did try to trace the family history, but it's lost somewhere.

SC: Yeah. Do you know your mother's maiden name?

GB: Poczak.

JH: Well, that was, oh, our mother?

SC: Yeah.

JH: Yeah, Poczak. P-O-C-Z-A-K.

SC: Okay. And were they connected with any churches or any connections that people might be able to look into within Bethlehem? Any specific religious organizations? Because sometimes they have records.

JH: Well, no, they weren't active. Was she active in church? Our mother was.

Hetzel: Our mother was, yeah. Saint Stevens Lutheran.

JH: We were Saint Stevens Lutheran Church. My grandparents were Lutheran, and my father the same thing.

SC: Okay, so both of them were Lutherans?

JH: Right.

GE: Were both sides involved with Saint Stevens Lutheran Church?

JH: Yeah.

GE: And is that a Bethlehem church?

JH: Bethlehem, yeah.

SC: Okay yeah, so that may be a place for researchers to look back into.

GE: So, do you know anything about their education?

JH: My father was what, 6th grade, I think, so he didn't have much of an 00:05:00education. And my mother, I don't really know either.

GB: She was about 8th grade.

SC: Then, that was pretty typical.

JH: Yeah.

SC: It really was. And can you tell me a little bit about your educational background?

JH: I graduated in 1950 from high school, and I was shortly drafted into the army. And I went, was sent to Korea, spent 16 months in Korea. In the meantime, while I was working while I was in high school, I was working part-time in a factory. Its Acme Children's Wear in Fountain Hill, I worked part-time there, learning the industry, from one part to the other. From sweeping to cutting, and so forth. I was working part-time. I was then drafted into the army, spent two 00:06:00years in the army. Sixteen months in Korea, and upon discharge, I went to Lafayette College. While at Lafayette College, I still worked part-time in the factory. I got married, wife, Lorraine, had one son, Archie. I worked part-time at the factory while going to college. And after three years, I decided that I wanted to get back in the industry, and stay in the industry, and make a career out of it. At college, I was taking up industrial engineering. So after three years, I dropped out of college, and went back in the factory full-time. In the meantime, my mother was still there, and she was running it as a forelady. So we both worked there a couple of years.

I'm going to look at my notes here and see what I did write down for you. Okay, 00:07:00after Lafayette College, like I said I got married, son Archie. My mother was running the factory, and in 1962, my mother and myself decided to go in business. We knew enough about the business as a whole to get into our own business and run it. So we decided to go into business, her and I. We started with 12 sewing machines. Rented out a factory, I remortgage my house, and that's how we started the business. From there, the business began to grow.

GE: And what part of the business were you in? Were you still in children's?

JH: Yeah, this was, the business we started was Panzell. P-A-N-Z-E-L-L. We started as a contractor sewing for various New York manufacturers. Okay, we soon 00:08:00grew to about 50 operators, and we had plenty of work at that time. That was back in, like I say, 1962. Soon after that, we bought out the factory that we both worked for previously, Acme Children's Wear. We bought that factory. We bought it out. So we now had that factory along with ours. My sister then entered the field. My sister, Georgine Banko, she entered the field and became a partner with us. Okay, along with her, my son came into the industry, Archie. He was the cutter. She has two sons; Donny, who became our mechanic.

GE: Okay, just excuse me, sorry, what is your name?

JH: Georgine Banko.

SC: And you married to a Banko from.

Georgine Banco: Bethlehem.

SC: Bethlehem. Were they in the steel industry?

GB: No.

SC: Okay, were they, they weren't in, and this is a separate tangent, I'm sorry but did they own a business?

GB: My husband was an auto mechanic.

SC: He was an auto mechanic.

JH: So out of the three sons, one ran the cutting room, my son ran the cutting room. Her son, one of her sons, was a mechanic for the factory, and the other one was our accountant.

GE: And what are the boys, what are your sons' names?

GB: Don was a mechanic.

JH: Donald, mechanic. And James as the accountant. Okay, at this time the business was booming. Like I say, we couldn't get enough help. Nobody could get help in the industry. You had ads all over the place trying any way you could possibly to get help for some machine operators and floor help. We had started 00:10:00another factory called Jad, J-A-D, Fashions. That was in Bethlehem.

GE: And this is about what year?

JH: This was about the early 1970s, I think it was. Okay, and between the three of us and our three sons, we would handle all aspects of the business from mechanics and running back and forth to the so forth. Again like I say we couldn't, the business just kept growing and growing.

SC: Do you think that the inability to get people was because of this post-war expansion and people getting jobs out of blue-collar industries and intowhite-collar industries?

JH: Well I think yeah people were beginning to leave the industry, I believe at that time because of the low wage scales and the jobs were plentiful.

SC: Yeah.

GE: And, unemployment was low.

SC: Yeah unemployment was low.

JH: 5% something like that.

SC: Yeah.

JH: So, you know, they didn't come into the industry. That's why eventually, with our association, I'll give you some information on that a bit later; we had a Vo-Tech course that we sponsored, just to train operators and so forth.

SC: At Bethlehem Vo-Tech [Bethlehem Area Vocational-Technical School]?

JH: Bethlehem Vo-Tech. They did other things besides training operators, but that was part of the focus, to bring people into the industry.

SC: And before I forget, do you see yourself as sort of a looper in the textile industry because you went into your mother's where she worked and then got to learn the very, I'm thinking of Bethlehem Steel now, you get to learn from the bottom up, and you got to learn the entire industry.

JH: Absolutely.

SC: That's amazing. it really is.

JH: Absolutely. Well she knew, she had a thorough knowledge of the floor and everything else and how to--business. My mother was business smart, also. And between us, the other aspects of it, the cutting and the shipping, and I began 00:12:00to set-piece rates, and do one thing at a time more and more, I became involved in the business.

SC: Yeah.

JH: But that's where it started, with these other factories and so forth.

GE: With the labor, was it typically, I guess let's say minimum wage? For the operators?

JH: The minimum wage-

GB: That was for learners. There was also piece-rate.

SC: Okay, and it wasn't unionized?

JH: No.

GE: Okay.

JH: The average wage I think was like 7 dollars or something like that. That's back in the 80s. In the 70s it was lower than that.

SC: Yeah.

JH: But it was, you know, it's where it all started, the wages.

GE: Was there much pressure to get it unionized, from union organizers?

GB: At times, there was, yes.

JH: Yeah, there was. We never unionized. Because I always felt if we did, we couldn't stay in business. That's one of the things that began to happen.

SC: And the association helped that?

JH: No, our association was both union members and non-union. Now, with the Atlantic Apparel, I understand it was a different association. They were union members.

GE: Atlantic Apparel. Who was Atlantic Apparel?

JH: That was--

SC: Delin.

JH: Delin.

GE: Oh, oh, oh, oh.

JH: I think Delin was running that then.

GE: Okay he did have one first then he became involved with this.

JH: Yeah.

GB: Then our girls decided they didn't want a union, and they were being pressurized, so they formed an inside union amongst themselves.

GE: Okay, that's interesting.

JH: They formed a company union for our factory.

SC: Oh, interesting.

JH: The competition became when you had trouble getting help, and the wages were beginning to be lowered. The industry began to move down south because there were non-union shops. Here there was mostly union shops, to stay, we didn't have a union, except the company union. But like I said to stay afloat we had to give all the benefits, if not more than the union did. We at one time were giving them what, twelve paid holidays,

GB: And 3 to 4 weeks vacation.

JH: 3 to 5 weeks. We would give, gave 3 to 5 weeks vacation. More than what the union was giving-- what they were pushing for.

SC: Yeah.

JH: Anyway, the business began to move down South, so that was the first step of it moving out; the competition and so forth, and modernization and factories combining, and other reasons that you lost the help.

GE: Would you say this is mid-1970s? Just to have a time frame.

JH: That was, well, the industry began to decline in the 70s. But, you didn't see a real decline until around I guess until the late 80s, early 90s, then you saw a real decline. And that's because in the 90s other trade barriers came into effect. The government put these trade--NAFTA and another one that they--

GE: Oh, so where it became much easier to go to Mexico and the whole North America.

JH: Yeah, the manufacturers in New York would go down, instead of Pennsylvania, would start moving to Mexico and down South.

GE: Right.

SC: Yeah.

JH: For various reasons, you know the labor I guess was cheaper.

GE: Right.

JH: So they began to move down South.

SC: And there was a good exchange up to Canada even I guess, I don't know if there were any textile industries at this point up in Canada, but I mean our exchange rate was so good in the 90s.

JH: You mean the money rate?

SC: The money rate, yeah.

GE: Right that it was strong here-

SC: It was strong here and weaker then as opposed to now

JH: Anyway, all this time, we were contractors. My sister and I, my mother, you know, like I said we were in this business. And then I was approached with an individual from New York, to join him in manufacturing. Which I did, so I became then a manufacturer instead of a contractor.

GE: And this is about when? When did this occur?

JH: This occurred oh I guess this was.

GB: The 80s sometime, I think.

JH: Probably late 80s.

GE: And who was the person you were working with?

JH: That was Atlas Childrenswear, A-T-L-A-S Childrenswear, in New York, and the person's name was Albert Papa, P-A-P-A. He was in manufacturing, so we had the factories, and he had a showroom up there in New York. So I joined him as a partner, and between us, we would then buy the piece goods, we would showroom-- the buyers would come into the showroom, and we would design our own garments. It was mostly childrenswear at that time. We would design our own garments. 00:18:00Buyers would come into the showroom, and they would place orders. We had more orders again and that you couldn't handle. And the work that went to our three factories down here, to our contractors. That even expanded to about ten more contractors in the New York area, small contractors, and maybe ten more in this area that we would send the work out to.

GE: Okay so you were doing, you were not only filling your own factories business, but you were going beyond that to other contractors.

JH: At least ten in New York and ten here, something like that.

GE: Wow. And you were saying how you define the difference between being the manufacturer versus the contractor, can you just tell us a little bit more about that?

JH: Well, the manufacturer buys the piece goods, does the marketing, usually has a showroom, and will send the goods to a contractor who will cut the goods for 00:19:00him. Some cut, some didn't. And sew it and then send it back, the finished garment, back to the manufacturer's warehouse, where he would distribute to the stores in retail. Now the manufacturer had all these aspects of it, while the contractor only did sewing. And that basically what, in this area, most of them were. Not all of them, but most of them were only sewing in this area.

SC: And originally, were they called oftentimes, maybe not specifically Allentown, but in the region, shirtwaist companies? In the earlier years?

JH: Called what?

SC: Shirtwaist companies.

JH: I don't know.

SC: No, okay, because I know there were, especially up in near Hazelton and that area, there were a lot of shirtwaist companies, also sewing factories, there were a lot of sewing factories.

JH: See a lot of people, didn't know really the difference between a contractor and a manufacturer. Like I say, the contractor didn't own the piece work, didn't own the garments; all they did was sew. Some, like I say some in this area were, most in this area were that. But, there were a few manufacturers. Anyway, the business was still growing then. Then we purchased this equipment that we have there. Then my daughter in law, Judy Hartzell, joined the company. And she became a pattern maker, grader, designer, and so forth, working what my sister now does. Now she was brought into the fold.

GE: That's around 1990 or still in the 80s?

JH: That was in the 80s I guess, the late 80s. Then, I guess the business was growing all around, and we needed more factories and more work and so forth and we kept, you know, kept expanding, to the point, and then, in the meantime, in the 70s, the decline had started. But it wasn't affecting us really. The decline that began then was the wages, and it began to move down south. And factories were automated and new machinery, and we needed to cut help at that time. We kept expanding, and things were going alright until, well let's see, the early 1980s, now that when things were probably at a peak. Then my partner in New York 00:22:00and I, then my mother, bought a building at Fountain Hill. A two-story building and from that building we then began to do all the cutting and receiving of goods from the factories, inside that building on the second floor. And the first floor was all sewing. So that was our operation, it was centralized there. Except the showrooms in New York. So we had that showrooms in New York and so forth. And in the meantime there was another line that was opened up, it was called Georgi Girl Sportswear, Georgi Girl. And that we made large-sized clothing for women, for what was Layne Bryant and so forth that we would make goods for.

SC: And the reason that you didn't sort of fail in those years, is there a reason that you put to it? That you could expand? Was it because you got a 00:23:00partner, was it because you diversified into cutting also?

JH: Well, we began working on a shoestring ourselves, you know. We weren't making much money, you know, everything was, as things began, the competition got tighter. We were able to expand in the beginning because, and we were doing alright because we had automated machinery, too. In other words, we invested in things like this equipment in here, things like, we had an automated loop machine where it set the loops on garments. The girl would just sit there, stand there and she would just put it in the machine, and that was it. It was things like Paul has upstairs there. I mean it became automated anyway, but

GB: The main thing was jeans then.

JH: They were making jeans. That's what made it hard. That's another reason. It was a hard garment.

GE: Yeah, a lot of operations on it

SC: And in the 70s, jeans, oh my goodness

GE: That became so popular

SC: Yes that was so popular

GE: Were there a lot of places that couldn't make jeans, and you were one of the few that could?

JH: I don't think there were any in this whole area.

GE: Okay, okay, so that gave you a competitive advantage.

JH: And then there were things that would pop up and like I remember Davey Crocket back to those days. Everything became Davey Crocket. We put a screen printing on a pocket, and it would sell before, as many as you could buy.

GB: And the fringe on the pocket too.

JH: And the styles would change, it became from straight legs to bell-bottoms, and everybody was buying bell bottoms. All this made the industry. You know, it made us, those were the reasons.

SC: So you had a sense of where the market was going and what you should-

JH: We could do it right away.

GE: Because you were both manufacturer and factory? Do you think in other words, do you think that helped, as the manufacturer, you received some of the trends 00:25:00quicker? You weren't just being given the order, but you were being able to be a little bit ahead of it.

JH: Well we hired eventually sales reps, and they had their own sales office, and I know one of them would go, like every year, he would go to France and this and that and pick up the latest trends and so forth, and we'd then design the garments for the coming trends. And it worked, it worked, yeah.

SC: Did you ever have any connection with Hess's because they were always trying to be in the cutting edge of products. And did you have any connections with people who might have worked with Hess's on what the cutting edge was?

JH: No.

SC: No, and that was just a complete, I never thought of that before question, that maybe there was some connection. Thank you.

GE: The kind of product that you were making, the jeans, were they store brand or like, you know, whose label was it?

JH: It was our label.

GE: So you were, okay, so what was your name?

JH: Our name then was Atlas Childrenswear.

GE: Okay, and this was primarily children's?

JH: Children's, strictly children's.

GE: Okay, so it was strictly children, right, and these were being sold in which stores?

JH: In department stores all over the area.

GE: Okay, okay.

JH: We had no major, big, at that time, no major accounts. I mean the department stores, Walmarts, it was all the individual department stores.

GE: Right, okay. And you feel that part of what also what helped you in the 80s is your operation became much more capital intensive, so you used a lot more machinery, and a lot less labor?

JH: Right.

GE: Okay.

JH: So getting back to that, with the manufacturer and the contractors, see that's one of the big differences, too. A manufacturer has to buy the materials, and lay the money out, and wait for the money to come back after the goods are sold. Where a contractor gets paid from the manufacturer usually within ten days 00:27:00upon delivering those goods. So there was a big difference. I remember as we went into the manufacturing, we ended up working with Target and Mervyns and some of these large stores, and by the time the order came in, and then we had to make the goods, and send it overseas and everything else, and then they would want their terms like after they received it, like 60 days. Because they could dictate terms. These big stores could tell you they was 30, 60, or 90, and you're going to have to accept it. And it would be six months for the money to turn around, so you had to invest a lot of money.

SC: But did that make you survive? Just because you had a manufacturer partner and he was the contractor?

JH: Well let's go on with this.

SC: Okay sure.

JH: Okay, after we bought the building we were doing everything else and then my wife Lorraine became more or less involved in the business, and we opened up outlet stores. They had three outlet stores at that time also.

GE: And this is the 1980s?

JH: This the 19, Yeah that would be the 1980s.

SC: What were the names of the factories?

JH: Lorraine's Factory Outlets.

SC: Oh, okay, and where were they located?

JH: One was in Fountain Hill.

GB: Palmerton.

JH: Palmerton. And up there in-

GB: I can't think of that, by the flea market place.

JH: Yeah the flea market up there, it was like -- anyway there were three. Palmerton was one, Fountain Hill was another, and Emmaus or something.

SC: Not in the Poconos.

JH: Where that race track used to be up there.

SC: Umm.

GE: Nazareth.

SC: Oh, Nazareth, of course, that makes sense, so smart.

JH: It was Nazareth, Fountain Hill, and Palmerton.

SC: Yeah.

GE: And I assumed that helped the lot, did it just help to kind of offset or complement the other business.

JH: Well, yeah, it offset. It didn't complement. It was another business. Because then we through that business, we bought two trucks and began hauling for the other business with the piece goods, to New York and back and forth, and so forth.

GE: Prior to that, it was, prior to that, how was that hauling done?

JH: The hauling was done by common carriers.

GE: Okay, and now you were able to do it through your own truck?

JH: Yeah we got our own trucks because the trucks would go at least two to three times a week to New York. We'd take a bunch of cut goods up to New York and here 00:30:00in this area, and they'd give them the cut goods to sew, and they'd bring back the finished goods, back to our warehouse.

SC: That's such a good lesson in business sense too!

JH: Like I said, the business in the 1980s was good, it continued for us even though there was a slow decline.

GE: But you survived fine.

JH: Yeah, up until then, yeah. And like I said, the decline was caused by again, the modernization, the wages, competition, merging of mills, and so forth. Anyway, we stayed in the business because of, to be honest with you, because of her sons and my son and everybody else. In the meantime, my mother had passed away, and my wife had passed away, too. We, because of the family involved and 00:31:00everything else, we held on to the business. We saw the decline come. It came in New York, the showrooms, and then our factories here, and it was getting less and less, and we began to lose money until we ended up like most of these other people in the area, we lost everything. So we came from one time very, more or less wealthy, and then nothing. So anyway, then along came this guy upstairs Paul Reid. And I was, after the closing of the factories, I went to work in the cutting room and my sister, then, we set this up here.

GE: And this is about when?

JH: This was about the early 19..

GB: No mom died in 95, it was right about 96, 97.

JH: Because we shut, when did we shut the mill? - 94 we shut down. 94 we finally shut down. We paid all our debts. We didn't file bankruptcy.

GB: And we didn't stick anybody.

JH: We didn't stick anybody. We paid everything but doing that we were broke. So you know we kept this part of the business, and I went to work at another factory.

SC: So let's repeat that in 1994 you went to another place to run the cutting room?

JH: Yeah, then after closing down we went to another factory and ran the cutting room. And we still have this equipment with us, my sister and I. We took this with us over there. And I ran the cutting room, and she ran the markers and the grating and everything else, with these machines, for that factory.

SC: What was the name of that factory? Do you remember where it was? I could look that up. I could look that up in Allentown books.

JH: Well that was, umm...

SC: It will come to you.

GE: And I was just wondering, how old were your children at this point? Your children had been in the business already for a while. In their 50s? No, they would have been much younger.. in their 40s?

JH: Well they, when they were with us they were in their thirties, really.

GE: Right so let's say by 1995, that you were trying to hold onto this for the next generation.

JH: Right.

GB: They were in their forties.

GE: Okay, okay. At this point, what did they do? In other words, when you went to this other factory, what did they end up doing?

JH: Well, my son ended up working. He did two things. He became a game warden, and also he worked for BARC. Bucks County Association of Retarded Citizens.

GE: Okay.

JH: So he had really left the industry at this time. My advice also. Telling him to get out, you know.

GE: Right, right.

JH: You can't stay in this. I keep telling Judy that, but she always wants to come in somehow. I said it's not for you anymore, but maybe it is. And her sons, one was an accountant from the beginning, he stayed an accountant and still is. And the other one is right now, where did he go to work?

GB: He went to work for cable companies, he was installing satellites.

JH: Cables, he got on with that too.

GH: And he had his own construction company.

GE: Okay.

SC: With skills, you can do anything.

JH: So then, anyway, like I say I went to work for this r cutting factory, and she ran the room for that, we did quite well then, my sister and I. This factory was busy yet, and other ones were closing down, and one of the reasons that he was busy is because...

GE: Everything else closed down.

JH: Well, not only that he got tied in with a big manufacturer, and he was hiring illegals, and this sorta thing, and maybe you read about it, but he did get raided.

GB: (inaudible . . . Sportswear)

JH: You know what, he had different names.

GB: Yeah so that's why we can't remember.

SC: Oh that's true if he's hiring illegals, yeah.

JH: And he had illegals, and I remember one day they, it was raided by the...

GB: INS.

JH: The INS, immigration and

GE: When was this about? When was this about 2000?

GB: At least 2000.

JH: Yeah that had to be early.

GB: Early 2000.

JH: Yeah around 2000, yeah.

GE: Around 2000, yeah.

JH: And he was, half of them got hauled away and everything else. You know he was, that's who he hired.

SC: So many people did that.

GE: I was just going to say, was that happening?

JH: Yeah, you were forced to. Unfortunately, that's what it's coming back to, with these little factories that are still around.

SC: Yeah.

JH: Not like Paul upstairs. They are legitimate, they go by everything they should be, and they are lucky they have the accounts they do. But there are 00:37:00still these little factories around, who knows how they are operating.

SC: Plus it was so many people's history; they work for sweatshops. That's American history, but--

GE: Who was this firm? Who was the owner of this firm?

JH: Jacob . . . was his last name? We should look it up somewhere.

SC: Well we can look that up, we can definitely, we can go back in the Morning Call.

GE: But what was the name?

SC: They were raided, we can find it.

JH: Yeah, they were raided; it was a big thing at that time.

SC: Yeah.

GE: I don't remember, did they go under as a result?

JH: Yeah.

GB: He was deported. He's over in . . .

JH: Yeah, the one owning it or running it, he paid cash with everybody. Everybody except us, we were smart enough. You know, we did work for him but here are the checks. So we stayed clear of everything but those other people that worked for him, half of them were illegals, and they paid cash and 00:38:00everything else.

SC: Was he from Mexico himself?

GB: He was from the Middle East.

JH: Egypt.

SC: Oh, okay.

GB: A lot of the illegals were Syrian.

JH: A lot of the illegals were Syrian.

GB: Lebanese.

SC: Makes so much sense.

JH: So anyway he was on the verge of- We left before he closed out. But after that happened, we got out. In the meantime, Paul Reid, this guy you met upstairs, was working for the manufacturer as a- he would place work, his job was placing work and so forth. By the way, he knows the industry in and out. He's a good person to interview when you can. Him and I then decided, I became good friends with him, and we decided we are going to go in business ourselves, 00:39:00again, we are going to take another crack at it, so we bought this building first. Him and I. Then we had contacts with two girls, one was in Washington, one in San Francisco, another one in Chicago. They were buyers and salespeople for Target. Target stores and Gymboree.

GE: Oh, yeah

JH: So through them, and with our knowledge, we began to set up a business of manufacturing for Target stores. And we began to do that here. We first started buying finished pieces. Like those rolls up there, and cutting the work. We knew now at this time we can't compete with labor because now the labor from overseas 00:40:00was so low that you couldn't even think of making it here. For the same garments, you couldn't sell them. So we cut the goods here, and send it overseas, we went over there, him or I, went to Haiti and set up a factory over there. We didn't buy it or anything, we just got a contact and sent the goods over there, and they made the goods for us, and sent it back. We would have to send container loads over. In fact, there's a picture up on that wall, of our first container coming back on the other end, coming back from Haiti. So they would sew the goods for us, bring it back here, we'd put it in the warehouse here, inspect it and so forth. We had people working for inspecting and so forth, but no sewing, and we'd send it to the stores. Even that competition became more and more. Now the competition was from other factories, other 00:41:00manufacturers, other countries that the goods start going from Haiti, Dominican, Honduras. Even they became, as the labor went up in these countries, we moved to other countries and so forth. Competition became stiffer yet, so we then began to buy the cotton and converting the goods ourselves, we then had to buy the cotton, take the fibers and convert it into yarn and then we would send the yarn then to a weaving house, finish it then to make the piece goods. Whatever we were making, woven and knits at that time, and then from there we would send it to a finishing house, the piece goods, and then back here we would cut it. Then we'd send the cutwork offshore to be sold. Now, as an example, I think for a 00:42:00garment at that time, a little t-shirt was maybe 12 dollars a dozen labor in the United States. We were able to make it oversees in Haiti and Dominican for 3 dollars a dozen, and that included the shipping over and . . .

GE: That included the shipping?

JH: That included the shipping and the insurance. So that was the big difference. It was so cheap for us and that's what began to happen going back to the decline of the industry. The wages start going down, and they move to Mexico, and so forth, the manufacturers start shipping to be made overseas. Instead of sewing factories in the United States

GE: Oh, the manufacturers just went directly.

JH: The manufacturers were now beginning to go directly over there just like we did, so now you eliminated the sewing here and in this country.

GE: Right!

JH: And we came down and were, eventually in the beginning, the government said you can only send the cut goods over, that they can only sew over there. Then next they said, now you can send yarn over. Now you can send, they can cut themselves, they can dye themselves. Then the dye houses and everything else began to be set up offshore. And so everything in that went offshore. So in the meantime, we had hired a third party, a money person, who was a signup partner because we needed a lot of money with the manufacturing. And that too after about three-four years ago?

GB: Yeah.

JH: Around mid-2000, we decided to, the competition again was too much, too many headaches and everything else, so we decided to-

SC: So did you lose the silent partner? Yeah, well, we, then again we closed it down, we didn't lose money at this. I mean, it was a thing where everybody got paid, and we decided that was it.

GE: And that was a few years ago?

JH: Yeah, that was only a few years ago.

SC: Was the silent partner really silent? Are you allowed to say?

JH: No, he was silent.

SC: Silent. Okay, so you can't say his name. Just was investing.

JH: Yeah, he was the money person at that time.

SC: Next time we'll know not to ask that.

JH: No, that's alright. So we eventually cut it down, we kept the building there, and we kept this part of it then, her and I have been here doing this, and like I say working with entrepreneurs.

GE: And is this just let's say the last two or three years that you're doing this now, the two of you?

JH: Yeah, this is about, maybe the last five years, yeah.

GE: Okay.

JH: And what this involves is somebody will come, and they have an idea they want to make a garment, and they don't know anything about manufacturing or anything of the sort, and where to even start at. So I'll take the garment, I'll tell them what is going to take, how to go about doing it and so forth. We'll work, we'll get a sample made, I'll send it to another person that makes a sample for us and so forth. And that's it, we'll either if they like it then we'll grade for it, get different sizes and make a little marker and that's where it goes. And 99% of them, they don't realize what is involved. They really die before they get started. But some slip through, it's a tough little business now.

GH: We went from making jeans to making dog clothes

SC: They can be small and intricate, that's very difficult.

GE: It's interesting because the pets, it is a big thing. It's a really big thing today, I'm amazed because I don't have a pet, so I'm amazed, but it is, it's part of the family.

SC: Could you talk a little about this process that you do? Where it starts, and how you go to sending the pattern out to the person who wants to be in this business?

JH: Well, it starts with a person that's interested in getting into the clothing line, and usually they are designers. They will come to us and ask how to get going into it, and how to make that first pattern, the first garment. So they either will give us something similar to what they want, maybe a picture or the 00:47:00garment or a drawing, and say this is what we want. From there, we will make the base pattern on card paper by hand. And we'll make them according to the dimensions, maybe a certain size that they want. Maybe a medium or whatever, or ladies, and we'll make it into that. And then we'll have them send, the one that's asking for it have her send the goods she wants it made on. So she will send us a couple yards of goods, and then we will then send it to a sample maker, a girl we have. They will make that first sample. When the first sample is made, we then will send it to this first-person, or they will stop in here. And they will put it on, see if it's the way they want it made, and how it fits. If they like it, they will tell us now we want it, from this is a size medium, 00:48:00now we want it from maybe extra small to extra large. We will then with our equipment here, grade it then from one size up to the other. Then if it goes beyond that, it's into the, when they buy piece goods, and we know the width of the goods, we make these markers, and the markers then will go to the factories to cut, but they're all such small, and I advise any of these entrepreneurs to start small. Pay more, and start small, because if it doesn't take off, you aren't going to lose that much. And they think that they have to make 500 garments and you don't know if it's going to sell. To be honest with you, they have trouble. They don't know how to market it first before they get going with it. And this is where we come in, also, by trying to advise them what it's going to involve, what money you are going to need, and how to make up a job 00:49:00description plan and how to go about getting the loan. They're going to need money and everything else, and what it involves. Sometimes when they know what it involves, it ends, because they just don't know. But some are, they have enough sense to go slow. We have a couple of them right now that are going slow with paying more for a couple of garments and seeing how it sells, and it may work for them.

GE: Now you take care of the beginning part? The actual, let's say they want to make 50. Is that when you then help them contract that out someplace? You don't do that anymore, right?

JH: No, in fact, I have to watch one girl at work, I gave her a price, I go into the factory then, and say this is the garment we want, how much is it going to be to make 25? How much is it to make 50? How much is it to make 100? And then, 00:50:00we'd be getting into the big time, a thousand garments or so. But again, when it ever gets there, my advice to any of these girls or who's involved, if you get to the big time, go offshore. You can't make it here in the states.

SC: Do you charge a fee for the advice, or do you just charge what they actually get from you?

JH: Well, sometimes I charge a fee for advice, and sometimes I don't. We'll help them. We're here to help them. We're not individuals that don't want to tell you what we know. Because it doesn't matter anymore, we'll tell you anything we know. So I'll give them my advice, and we'll help them. We will place the work for them, and help them. Like right now we have a girl, she's doing 25 at a time, these dog things and the other ones doing the tops, and they are paying 00:51:00more because of that, but they have their internet sales and see how it works.

SC: Is this the model?

JH: She's one of them.

GE: I'm curious, how do you find your clients or how do they find you?

JH: Here's even a hat we make for them, the dogs. This visor hat.

GE: I have a friend who recently got, I forget what kind of dog, a havanese I think, anyway, got two little havanese, she was like, for me I don't have dogs, so it's hard for me to quite understand it all, but she said she just can't wait to go to the store and be able to buy some clothes, and I was like, oh my God.

JH: There's little jackets right there for a boy dog.

SC: That's adorable.

GE: So how do they find you? How do you develop the clients and they find you?

JH: We don't advertise. We don't even have, I think, a number in the phone book. We're not really, to be honest with you, not, I don't know what would happen if I put it on the internet and advertise. I'd probably, I don't know, maybe nothing, maybe we'd have too much business. We don't want too much. We're both semi-retired, so when we get-

GE: You just like a little bit.

JH: Yeah a little bit here and there, it's enough to like keep going.

GE: What I didn't know was like let's say, in other words, do you attend anything in terms of something where you are likely to meet people who are starting off in, you know as entrepreneurs or chambers of commerce.

JH: The only thing I do anymore is I go to the New York shows. . . the piece good show and so forth once a year, I'll go there, but not to meet people. Just to keep myself up on the industry. So I'll spend the day up there and so forth. 00:53:00Because there are different types of materials that have come along today. But we don't advertise. But we do. . . just when one goes another one seems to come in, and I don't know where they come from. We just got a phone call from, I think, Detroit, and the one girl that we work with now is Connecticut.

GE: Okay so how they heard of you, you're not even sure. Wow.

SC: That's really interesting.

JH: But like I say it's, it's the way we want it almost.

GE: No, I understand, I was just curious.

SC: So do you have any other, did we miss any other business questions? Do you have more? Do you have more stuff?

JH: Well, no that's my personal, but you know, there's my thoughts on what the industry was and why it's [inaudible]

SC: Great, yes, please, please.

JH: Well I'm gonna go off my notes then.

GE: Great, fine, absolutely.

JH: The apparel industry was at one time the largest employer in Pennsylvania, okay. It was certainly the largest in the Lehigh Valley. The industry and the low wages and so forth because of that 85% of that its unskilled labor, production workers, it's probably one of the reasons why the labor has been so low, anyway. In the beginning, when we started the business, there were years ago you had different groups of people came into the industry. One time I could imagine way back, it was probably the blacks came into the industry and then maybe-

GE: You're saying as workers? As the sewing machine workers?

JH: As the sewing machine operators I'm talking about, right. And I guess Italians from immigrants and so forth. It came, that's how we got, they were busy at that time, and we kept things going. Eventually, it came, and I know with us in those years it was the Portuguese.

GB: We were fortunate with that, we had some great Portuguese workers.

JH: Great workers.

SC: In Bethlehem. Wow.

GB: Absolutely.

JH: They were among the best ever, these girls, anyway that what we had mainly at this time, was Portuguese. And then from there or even before then, I guess, it was the Puerto Ricans were in the factories, and then the Portuguese came in, then eventually the Vietnamese, the Koreans and Chinese, which are in it mostly now. So the industry did change, and so the average girl isn't going to go into the industry because they complete college and high school, and they don't come 00:56:00back in the industry.

GE: How about what you saw as who were the factory owners? Who tended to be the factory owners and why do you think that you and other people that you saw as factory owners? What do you think were some of the characteristics and why was you know that certain types of people or went into this business, were successful in this business?

JH: You mean the owners?

GE: Yeah.

JH: I think then it was probably Jewish and Italians that were mostly in the industry. Not me, I'm Pennsylvania Dutch, but I know when I joined the Association, I eventually became president of it, the Jewish and Italians were primarily in it.

GE: Why do you think the Jewish and Italians were primarily in it? Any thoughts?

JH: No.

GB: I think some of it might have been money, to get started.

JH: Well, you see, starting a business in the apparel business was fairly cheap at that time. You know you bought a couple of machines and had work and had the contacts, it was really a cheap business to get into until the automation came and everything else. I guess because probably you could say because they were hustlers, I don't know. They had more gumption than anybody else.

GE: Entrepreneurs.

JH: Yeah, they went into the business and gave it a shot. It's easy, you know it's the same old thing, if you don't try, you'll never know.

SC: Right, did you ever hear any stories about people's families being relegated, who were Jewish, relegated to being tailors and some other industries in Europe?

JH: Yep.

GE: That they already knew the business because they were tailors and weavers.

JH: Well

GE: They were the tradesmen of that type.

JH: Well the tradesmen, this business started, I guess. The manufacturing really started, got heavy in New York is when the civil war, when they needed uniforms for it, that's when it really started. Before that it was all handmade and made from things at home. Then they had to have some factories started because of the clothing.

GE: So then they were a lot of the tailors--the Italians, and Jews

JH: Yeah, I imagine that they were doing it at home and so forth. Doing their own knitting, the piece goods and so forth, and sewing, you know, whatever they do to make the clothing.

SC: Are there any factories in Rosetta, still? Because I think of Rosetta, which was almost one village, relocating into that village.

GE: Where was Rosetta?

SC: It's up in... it's not far from here.

GB: Up in the coal regions.

SC: Coal regions, yeah.

JH: Like 15 miles away?

SC: Yeah.

JH: Well, there were a lot of factories up in that area. See at one time there were, I think in the Lehigh Valley, I think it was 4000 people we employed, something like that, like 150 factories.

SC: Wow yeah, amazing.

GE: So the typical factory had only maybe, well I mean there were small ones, that they

may have just had 5, 10, 20.

JH: Yeah, probably the average factory there was maybe 10, 25, something like that.

GE: How many people did you have, at the largest, how many employees did you have?

JH: Well, we had about, I would say, two to three hundred. Not counting the contractors I worked with.

GE: Right, just your own employees. And would you say that a lot of it sounded like, a lot of what you would attribute your success is how many family members were involved? I remember you said it was your mom, the two of you, your son, her two sons, and so you had a lot of family members, you know really looking after every part of it.

SC: Did you ever have any connections with Philadelphia? Any of the surviving textile clothing places in Philadelphia?

JH: No.

SC: It was more of a New York, Lehigh Valley connection.

JH: Yeah.

SC: Because it did survive.

JH: The only thing in Philadelphia I think I ever did was maybe garment washing. Even the laundries, you had laundries that did garment washing, not these little typical laundry.

GB: They did tie-dye.

JH: They did tie-dye, your jeans, the slow washing goods, all that stuff.

SC: Beat them to death.

JH: Then I would get them all in Philadelphia but even that business . . . if you wanted one of them, you can't find one. I don't think there is anything in the United States anymore. Everything is offshore there, even that aspect of it.

SC: Do you have anything else in your notes that we interrupted you with?

JH: Well let's see where we are at. Okay, and anyway we know that there's many aspects of it. Not only the sewing, there's the shipping and the management, and office workers, and there's truck drivers and so forth. I always felt they never realized what's all involved in the apparel industry, not always sewing. But 01:02:00anyway, in this area at one time we had the contractors like I said at one time we had them, the manufacturers, the company that would make the goods, we had your dye houses, and we had finishing things. And we had your jobbers and your guys that would handle the scraps and everything else. We had everything here. Today, all I know that probably left in this area is small factories dotted here and there. And someone like Paul and the reason he's busy is because he works for a company like Under Armour, who is 90% offshore. But if they need something fast, he'll get it or repairs from offshore. By the way, when we began to working offshore, we found many other problems too which contributed to us coming back was the work wasn't good. And we had to end up going to Haiti and 01:03:00Dominican, flying there and staying down there a couple of days. We ended up hiring a person down there to work for us and stay in the mill all day long. And still we would get the work back and the color- and still I guess that problem is today with going offshore.

GE: Right, but it's still-- Unfortunately, I guess what your saying is even with all that headache. It was still worth it.

JH: Yeah, that's why these companies, that's why they are. That's where they are-- There's no doubt about it. It's how they can survive.

Okay, besides being involved with what I just mentioned, those organizations, I was like I said president at the time of the Apparel Industry Needle Trades 01:04:00Association. In that association, this was made up of about 50-60 members of contractors and manufacturers, in the Lehigh Valley area. We would meet once a month. We would have dinner. We'd then have a speaker, usually from the industry, or anything concerning it, or a politician. We'd have dinner, and then we'd have a speaker and then a program, and we'd discuss the industry itself. That Lehigh Valley Needle Trade Association was an active group, and we held, every year, we held a banquet. We would go to Harrisburg and sit with the 01:05:00governor, and he would acclaim an apparel week for the year. It would be apparel week, and in that week, we would hold our banquet and have other activities and so forth. In the banquet we would either have the governor would come sometimes or a congressman or other politician. And we would then have, again, a program. We'd have speech by the president of the association on the state of the industry and so forth. We would have a speaker, and then we would have entertainment. It was high-class entertainment. Maybe 300 people would attend, which was, the banquet was open to anybody in the industry. It could be the factory workers and the owners. We would have the entertainment, then dancing afterward. So it was a really big time for the industry. The same week, we would 01:06:00have a fashion show, and there would be an open house at the Vo-Tech school, and we would have open houses at the factories. Anyway, the association itself sponsored the Vo-Tech school, and the purpose then was to bring people into our industry. And they taught sewing in these schools, and we taught pattern making, designing and so forth. And the pupils, the girls in the school would design their own, design something for the fashion show, the yearly fashion show. They would design something themselves. They would then cut the goods out and sew it themselves and wear it in the fashion show. Awards would be awarded by the association, to the winners in there . . . at the show. Now all the materials for the goods, the fashions, were supplied by members of the association. The 01:07:00machinery in the Vo-Tech schools was supplied by the members of the association. We even had a CAD with-

GE: CAD CAM.

JH: CAD CAM, we had this kind of equipment in there donated by the Gerber company, to the school. So we had a good cross-section and then, but the main thing is that's how you get people into it including operators, which was getting harder and harder to get.

GE: Were you able to get them? Since the operators were the very lowest skill and lowest paid, were you able to get more of the higher, the pattern makers or the machine, the CAD CAM programmers, like did you feel it was pretty successful that way with what you were doing?

JH: Well, things began to happen in the school that I always saw. That was everybody wanted to be a fashion designer. Nobody wanted to be a sewing machine operator.

GE: Right, but how about the printmaker and the CAD-CAM?

JH: Well, that was always hard to get somebody because they were so complicated. But I don't think the teacher even knew enough eventually. In fact we would hire the Vo-Tech teachers then, too. We would not hire, we would suggest who did get hired. The Association, our association would. And then we would teach the teachers off some of these units, and so forth. So the school worked, you know, it was good. It was good for a while but again it's how much it brought in the . . . eventually it began to phase out too because its people didn't want to be sewing machine operators anymore.

GE: And was this just Bethlehem Vo-Tech or was it, Lehigh?

JH: It was Bethlehem Vo-Tech, then Lehigh county Vo-Tech had a course. And then we also had a course-

GE: Bucks.

JH: No. But other associations I'm sure did. But we had, then we had a mechanics course in Miller Heights, for mechanics that we sponsored also. And then again the Association was, and then we would meet, and if somebody needed a certain machine that the other factory didn't have, we would help each other. If one person had too much work, he'd tell them, and it's just we'd work together.

GE: Right, does the association still exist?

JH: No. The Association, it held on I guess longer than anything even when the industry went down but-

GE: Okay so the small little factories now there's no Association?

JH: No.

GE: When did that end about ten years ago? Or even earlier?

JH: The Association, I imagine that's probably about ten years.

GE: Yeah, you have to have enough members.

JH: So we would hire the students from the school, bring them into our factories. Train during the summer months, maybe put them in the factory for a week or two and so forth. Anyway, in our association, we served on other committees. That's why I would be on maybe the private industry council or this and that. The economic development I was on that board, too.

GE: Lehigh Valley Economic Development Corporation.

JH: Allentown.

GE: Yeah. Allentown Economic Development Corporation.

JH: Okay, and then, like I said we held this apparel week, which consisted of the banquet like I mentioned, and the Vo-Tech and so forth. And we would give out scholarships in the schools and have open houses and so forth, all week.

SC: And were the scholarships for?

JH: For the students who were mostly in the fashion design.

SC: The fashion design, yeah.

JH: The ones who made the best design, the best clothing and so forth. Really basically I think that's the schools. And I don't think we want to get into the declining industry and all that other stuff. We all know it was a booming area, we know that it employed thousands of people, there were many job opportunities, they put many people to work. And truthfully, it was the low-income people which if you can get them off the streets today, they, I mean if you had those jobs now. Of course, then you've got the minimum wage begin to play into it.

SC: But we do really want to get into the declining industry because it is really about the deindustrialization of America in many ways.

JH: Well that's part of it, but the main thing of the declining industry I think it became an- see in 1905 which wasn't even too long ago, when they took all quotas off.

SC: 2005?

JH: Yeah.

SC: 2005, yeah.

JH: All quotas off imported goods. And the tariffs were down almost lower than nothing.

GE: Free trade.

JH: Yeah, and before that there was the other act, what was that Act? Anyway, before that was then, let's see . . . from 1978 to 1988, we lost 12,000 apparel jobs in the Lehigh Valley. And my opinion, what happened, the decline came 01:13:00because of the modernization, and the wages, and everything else. But then, the low wages of undeveloped countries, and the government wanted to more or less help them, and the wages became so low there that everything had to go offshore. They brought in these two Acts. I think the Multifiber Act is the other one from 1974 to maybe 2005 or something like that, where they put a limit on quotas importing to countries that were developed from undeveloped countries. It was at first a limit on it, and then in 2005 they put the NAFTA, it was NAFTA, the trades act eliminated these tariffs, I mean quotas, it dropped the tariffs down almost to nothing. Because of that imports came in, and all the flood of the 01:14:00clothing came in from offshore. It practically wiped out the industry. But there still are people surviving, like Paul there and these little shops and that. If it's ever going to come back, they say it's coming back. I know there was, I've seen an article, Obama says he wants to bring manufacturing back to the United States. I doubt if it's going to be the apparel industry.

GE: Correct.

JH: Not the low wage. Maybe the higher machinery will, but not that. But, who knows with the wages are coming lower in the United States. The same time in other countries it is going up, the oil and everything else is becoming crazy and so forth. And this is making a changing thing, and we are a modern nation more so in this country now, and there are reasons it probably could come back 01:15:00to maybe a certain extent. There is a need for small factories for these entrepreneurs and people that, and even manufacturers, that do a very small amount. There is a need for them for these small factories. Because they can't send the container load over there. See that's the only reason why what we did. We had that price because it was a container load of goods, and they can't do that, so they can't. You know there's a need for that type of thing. And these entrepreneurs, and the fast turnover people, are the ones that probably like Under Armour there that can't get enough goods made offshore that they still have him help out and so forth.

GE: There will be little niches here and there.

JH: There has to be a niche.

SC: Everything on PCN. Pennsylvania Community Network. All the little factories, they show the factories that are still surviving in Pennsylvania.

JH: Yeah, but you know it is, I wouldn't want to be in it anymore, because you couldn't compete. Like I said, we made a lot of money in the business. We lost a lot of money, too. So luckily, we had enough to come back to a certain extent. In fact, turn around ourselves.

GE: Right, right, right.

JH: Of the industry, we turned ourselves around more or less.

GE: Right

SC: Yeah. Can you say that again? That you turned yourselves around, in the industry, and there. . .

JH: You can't turn the industry around.

SC: That is beautiful.

GE: You have to personally adapt. Because you can't, the other is unchangeable.

JH: It's unfortunate for the small people who are still trying to make a living with a factory because it's really almost impossible. Unless, they, unfortunately, do things they are not supposed to do.

GE: Right, or find some sort of clever niche.

JH: Go ahead. Any last questions?

GE: Want to ask the last couple questions?

SC: Yeah, I have two filmy questions. Two what the heck is she asking me this for. The first one is, what do you value in life the most? And these are, these are questions I think are really important because it gets into who you are as a person?

JH: Well, that's really a good question. I ask myself sometimes, what's it all about.

SC: Don't we all.

JH: What do I value in life? To tell you the truth, I, the way I am today, I am more content I think than I ever was to be honest with you. Because you know, 01:18:00you get older and it's supposed to get easier, but it doesn't. You know your health begins to go, you have other problems, and your children and everything else, and financial, that gets harder, but I think, I don't know about my sister here. But, I'm more content because I'm semi-retired, and I don't have the pressure anymore. I don't have the people problems, and the finances and everything else involved. What I value, I don't know just living my life today as it is, I guess. I don't know how to answer that. You answer this.

GB: It has been a long journey. We've been together so many years. Our children grew up in this industry. They've gone their own ways now, but they know what 01:19:00it's all about. They know how hard we worked. Value our family.

JH: And it was hard work at times. I remember at the end of the business we would be there at nighttime-- ten, eleven o'clock at night, her and I, working there. The place was dark, light on because we were doing things, needed it for the next day, just to stay alive. And there's many many others in this apparel industry. I'm sure that many others that were forced to close down, and owed the government or the union large amounts of money, and went into debt and so forth. But, at least with us, we closed down, we were clean, and could start up a life and live today like we are, you know.

SC: And it seems as if, it's very unusual oftentimes for families to work together. That it's just too difficult and there are rifts among the various family workers and having your children working you'll be working.

JH: Well, we had that too.

GB: Yeah, we had the ups and downs.

SC: Yeah.

GE: That's challenging.

SC: It's very challenging.

GE: Especially, I assume when business was when everything's good, it's much easier. When things unravel a little bit, it's much harder, and it's easy to blame.

GB: Exactly. You want to see them get out on their own before they lose everything.

JH: Yeah, that was, it was hard at times, because of that.

SC: And that's preservation, you know, don't let them go down with the ship.

JH: Okay, what's your other question?

SC: My other question is what makes you feel the most artistic or completed in life? Just in general, what makes you feel most creative, completed, artistic? What's given you the most sense of satisfaction?

JH: Well, one of them is just being here in this, right here, because we're on our own. We can come in and go when we want to, do what we want to do. And you know I still have a family, and so does she. She has her own family, and we don't have the pressures, and we enjoy doing this. We still learn more every day in this industry, really, especially in this apparel and this pattern business, and creating the sizes and so forth. Every day we are just learning more, we get garments you would never dream of, such as the dog clothing.

GB: Believe it or not, dog clothing is harder than a regular shirt or something.

JH: Who in the world would of ever thought that I would end up grading dogs. It was bad enough doing the human beings, but again, it's more or less helped us.

GB: It's a challenge.

JH: Sure.

GE: But it sounds like if I understand, in terms of the creativity, it's kind of nice at this particular time that you are able to, you're not working so hard, and so you are able to kind of enjoy the business, as opposed to just kind of working, working, working.

JH: You hit it one hundred percent.

GE: Right.

SC: Do you have a different, what makes you feel creative, completed, artistic?

GH: No I don't think so. Like I said, it's challenging when you get all different things from . . . we've done bathing suits already, we've done pants, of course, shirts, now we're into dog clothes. It's interesting.

JH: Anything that comes along, there's entrepreneurs.

GE: Right, right, right.

SC: And isn't that the best of business? Creativity where you can enjoy it?

GE: And it's probably a little fascinating to see where some of those people are coming from, and their ideas.

JH: And you know, and I really believe that if I advertised, put it on the internet or let it be known out there, just what we do, that I could probably get all the business we want. I think, I'm not sure. But again, we are getting older, the equipment is getting older, and we don't want a whole lot.

SC: You'd be getting all the business and all the headaches.

JH: Yes, your right, back into the people problems and everything else.

GE: And at this point, it's all, it exists, so as long as you are able to use it, whatever it brings in, it brings in. If you had to make an investment in something, it wouldn't be worth it.

JH: Yeah. Right. And when they break down, then, I don't know what we are going to do.

GE: Right, right.

JH: To get somebody to even look at that, it cost a thousand dollars even to look at it, even if it's some little screw somewhere.

GB: It's a Gerber company.

JH: Because they have it locked up so much, you know. Nobody else can repair them.

GE: Ohh. Do they still exist? Oh, well obviously you've had them.

SC: Gerber is owned by Nestle actually.

GB: Oh, I don't know, Gerber is just Gerber, right?

SC: Is it Gerber? Is it owned by Nestle?

JH: I don't know who owns it.

GB: I mean when somebody retires and comes down and repairs, they have to sign a contract that they won't go to any of the old businesses, you know, you can't even call them.

JH: See if a guy retires from them, and you need somebody here, it's nice to call one of these guys, who are cheap and maybe it's in the area somewhere, but they can't do it because they will lose their pension or whatever agreement they have with the Gerber company. So you got to call the company directly, and it's costly.

GE: Right, isn't that something, interesting. Well, everybody tries to protect their piece.

SC: Well, thank you so much. This was wonderful. This was so instructive to us. It really was.

JH: Well, I hope it was.

GE: Oh, it was, yes.