00:00:00Interview with Mark Stutz, June 27, 2016
SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is June 27, 2016 and would you give your full name
Mark and when you were born and where you were born.
MARK STUTZ: My name is Mark Stutz, and I am 64 years old. I was born May 18,1952
here in Allentown, Pennsylvania.
SC: Could we go back as far as you know with your mother's and your father's
family, any names that you know, where they came from and what they did, and how
they made a living or whatever.
MS: Sure. I'll start with my mother's side because it's a shorter story. I only
knew my grandmother and my grandfather. Their last name was Bahoff.
SC: Would you spell that?
MS: B-A-H-O-F-F. And I have, um, they had three kids. My mother is the last
00:01:00surviving child of that family, and I have four cousins from the other brother
and sister. I knew my great-grandmother on that side, but very briefly. And then
on my father's side I knew my grandmother's mother and my grandfather's father
and mother. My great-grandfather was very orthodox. I'm not quite sure whether
he was one of the people who wrote the Torahs or if he just studied all day, I'm
not sure, but I know he had the long beard and the hat. It was always a little
scary to see him the first time when we were little kids. I only met my
great-grandmother on that side a couple times before she died. And my
00:02:00grandmother, I only met her mother. I never met her father. Let's see, my
grandmother's maiden name was-- hm, it will come to me. I knew it, I just can't
think of it right now. My grandfather originally was Stutsky, but my great
grandfather got rid of the '-ky' so. I don't know why they did that. Was it
because of immigration or he did it himself and it could have been another
longer name that was gotten rid of. But my grandfather was a Stutz, and he had,
and my grandmother's name, I only knew her as Tilly, I can't tell you what her
real name was. I knew her as Nanna. So she had a son, two sons and a daughter.
00:03:00My father passed away seventeen years ago, and my uncle and my aunt are still alive.
SC: Where did they come from?
MS: Poland.
SC: Do you know where?
MS: No, I don't. My mother's grandparents were already Americans. My
great-grandparents moved here, so my grandfather was first-generation American.
He wasn't born in America - my grandfather - he was born in Europe, so I guess
really my father's generation is the first generation that was born American.
SC: So did they all come from Poland?
MS: I know my grandfather and my grandmother did. I don't know about the others.
SC: What kind of work did any of the generations do that you know?
MS: I know that my grandfather on my mother's side was involved with some weekly
00:04:00newspapers as far as delivery or, he wasn't involved as a writer or anything.
They were hand-to-mouth living; they didn't really have a lot. My grandmother on
my mother's side never worked, that I knew of. And they were not extremely
religious as far as Judaism was concerned. That's where I first tasted bacon was
in my grandmother's apartment from my mother's side. If you walk up the steps to
their apartment, you could smell it cooking.
But on my father's side, like I said, my great grandfather had something to do
with religion, I don't know exactly what. My grandfather entered the garment
industry as his very first job. He worked for my grandmother's brother, Dave.
And he ended up, the story goes that it was the height of the Depression and
00:05:00there was an argument going on in the office, and my grandfather's
brother-in-law, my grandmother's brother, said something about her. And my
grandfather slugged him and walked out. And there he was without a job in the
Depression. And he wouldn't go home without a job, so he went to a, he saw an ad
that they were looking for a foreman at a garment factory. He had never been a
foreman at a factory. He had done packing or whatever. He walked in and the guy
said, 'what experience do you have?' My grandfather said 'don't worry about it,'
he said, 'look, try me out, if I'm as good as the other person who was here
[before] then you keep me hired, and if I'm not any good, get rid of me.' And
that was how he started in the garment industry. He didn't know he was getting
paid, he had no idea. Then when he got his first paycheck or cash in those days,
it was pretty good.
And then he became what today would be called a consultant. He used to go around
00:06:00to other people's factories and help them do better at their factory. He was,
they didn't have a name for it back then. He just got hired. Then my
grandparents lived in Cuba for a while when it was, you know, friendly to
Americans, and he helped build factories there. He was doing it all over the
place. And my father worked for Surefit. Ok, so I don't know if you spoke with
anyone from Surefit, but he worked for Surefit. That was Krasnov. He said that
he was settling here, and he said to my grandparents, to my grandfather, 'you
know you're making money for a lot of other people, why don't you do this
yourself?' He said my grandfather had a small factory, down by where the Good
00:07:00Shepherd Home is right now, down there somewhere. They had a small factory on
the second floor. And that's what starts. Now that had to be after I was born,
because the company is called BruMar. Bruce for my brother, Mark for me. So I
would say 1952/53 it was started.
SC: As far as any other names or in your family or any business names that you
know of?
MS: Well, my mother's, my mother's sister-in-law, they were the Nowaks out of
Philadelphia, N-O-W-A-K. I know they owned a camp, a summer camp at one time, up
in the Poconos. I think Lieberman was my grandmother's family, something like
that. And they lived in Coney Island. I used to spend time at their apartment,
00:08:00and that's how I kind of knew them. We didn't have a very large family that, you
know, it didn't seem to be extremely large. Because there was only two and three
kids from each group. Also, the company that we worked for, that my grandfather
contracted for was Little Kids Bathing Suits, and we'll talk about that when we
talk about the business. But that owner's name was Paul Yellin. He was from New
York, from the Scarsdale area in New York.
SC: And could you, would you talk about, I know you can, would you talk about
your education from the beginning all the way through?
MS: Okay, sure. I went to the Jewish day school. I don't think I ever went to
the JCC, but maybe I did for nursery school, I probably did. I went from
00:09:00kindergarten through sixth grade at the Jewish day school. We were members of
Sons of Israel back then. I was bar-mitzvahed there. Then went to Raub Junior
High, 7th, 8th and 9th. And then William Allen from 10th, 11th and 12th. And was
really involved in the JCC at that time. Then I went to University of Bridgeport
for my undergraduate degree in liberal arts and as a theater major. And then
started to act professionally. Oh, I'm sorry, I went back to grad school at
Catholic University for directing. And then I went to, while I was there I got
some professional gigs, so I stopped going to school, because I was working,
acting in shows, and I had a layoff between shows. I knew I had another show to
00:10:00go to, then I had a layoff of about six/seven in the weeks. I was living in DC
and it was needed income. So my mother suggested that I come for a while and
help my father out in the factory. At that point my father was involved, because
it was the busy season, and he needed any help that he could get even if it was
minor help, it would be something. I said, okay, and I never left. Well I didn't
leave for 25 years anyway. Because, I thought, 'wow this is interesting' and I
can use my people skills with the people and there was income, and I sort of got
sucked into having a steady income, so I stayed there.
And this says athletics on it, it should say the arts, cause I'm now the arts
director for Parkland School District but this shirt matched my outfit today, so.
SC: And will you do some of the shows that you were in?
MS: That I was in?
SC: Yeah, or that you worked with.
MS: Yeah, okay, so in acting I played Tevye a bunch of timesfor The Fiddler on
00:11:00the Roof. I've done Fagin in Oliver. I've been in Neil Simon plays like the
Chapter Two, and, what's the one with the two men that fight all of the time,
not the Odd Couple. I was in that also. I'm talking about the golden, oh gosh,
it was with Art Carney and Walter Matthau, and they fought the whole time. I was
in that show. I've done a lot of interesting different shows. Directing wise, I
directed 20 or 30 musicals easily and just as many straight shows. So anything
from American classics like Our Town and Tennessee Williams plays to Shakespeare
to anything that comes around because in a school environment you have to give
00:12:00them all sorts of opportunities.
SC: And this a question I haven't asked anyone yet, do you see a connection
between directing and your work in theatre with being a business person?
MS: Well, yeah, a lot. First of all, I think the fact that I always wanted to be
a director more than an actor is because I like to be in charge of the result,
not boss, although that comes with the territory, but I like to have an endgame
plan and be responsible to make that happen. So it's a vision, the same way I
had with the factory. I enjoyed the end game of it. I did not, there were things
I didn't like about it, certainly the challenge of meeting deadlines and things
like that and working with people. And in the factory, it was working with
employees, and in the schools it is working with students and as a director it's
working with people who you are their boss, they might not be getting paid, but
00:13:00they're acting and you're in charge of what happens so yeah there is a connection.
SC: Do you know when your family came to Allentown, what years they came? We can
look that up, but it's easier to ask.
MS: Well I know my brother was born here so that was 1950, so I would say around
1948/1949 they came to Allentown. First my parents came, and then my
grandparents came. And then they, my grandparents lived, moved into a twin in
South Mountain, and my parents were living in Valley View Apartments. And then
my parents moved to the same cul-de-sac called Vine Street in South Mountain,
near South Mountain Little League, where my grandparents lived. I grew up living
two houses away from my grandparents. Then when we moved to the Westend, they
had houses next to each other. So I grew up like Something About Raymond
00:14:00[Everybody Loves Raymond] that was what I grew up with. Okay but I was the kid,
not the parents. My grandparents lived right next door.
SC: Do you have any memories of when you were a child about the business when
you weren't a part of it?
MS: I do, I remember, I do, I remember being, going to the old factory, the
original original factory because we moved three times before we ended up at the
place where I was working. And the old factory that was creaky elevators, I
remember, and just the very, the smells and you know it was hot or cold and was
dusty. My grandfather's office was like a mess, you know. I think I inherited
that from him. But I do remember that. I don't remember any conversation about
it. My father wasn't working [there], it was too small of a business. My father
was with Surefit and he was not working with the business at that time.
00:15:00
SC: Any other anecdotes about your youth that you think sort of fit in?
MS: Um, well my grandfather, my father was also then in a dry cleaning business.
So he was working part-time, he was working for Surefit, and then he wanted to
be his own boss, so he and Edward Kahan, Ronald Kahan's father, who's still my
best friend, they entered into a business partnership. My father did
[Martinizing], the dry cleaning business. So it's sort of garment related. And I
remember there is the thing that moved the clothes around. My brother and I
hanging on it and pushing the buttons, we would get rides. And then that
partnership ended, not in the best way. Partnerships like marriages don't always
00:16:00end great. But so I remember that.
I don't really, might we, I do remember when the factory was on North Fourth
Street. I remember on Saturday mornings, my grandfather would take my brother
and I first to breakfast, then to shul to synagogue on Sixth Street, and then we
would go to the factory for an hour, and we would turn garments from inside out
to outside in. And we would get paid for that, like two dollars and five dollars
or breakfast whatever he had the mood to pay. So that was fun. It was a good memory.
GAIL EISENBERG: And that Fourth Street, was that the original?
MS: No, the original was the one that I can't remember the name of the street. I
want to say Lehigh Street but it wasn't Lehigh Street. It was down right across
from, I know exactly where it is because there is a Melner [?] trash/hauling
thing right there across the street from it, like the third floor. I remember I
00:17:00used to fight with the landlord all the time, we couldn't have heat, whatever,
you know, it was one of those old buildings.
GE: Just a quick question, you had mentioned your parents, grandparents, but I
don't have anybody's names, so could you tell me some of their names?
MS: So my grandfather on my mother's side, so my maternal grandfather was Jack
Bahoff, Jacob Bahoff. Jack Bahoff, I guess it was Jacob.
GE: It probably was. And Bahoff is--
MS: B-A-H-O-F-F. And--
GE: And his wife?
MS: Oh, my gosh, my maternal grandmother, what was her name? That's everyone I
think I know.
GE: What about your Bubbie?
MS: Actually, her name was Nana Honey. My other grandmother's name was Nana
because when my brother learned to talk, he would call them both Nana, but my
00:18:00grandmother, my maternal grandmother would always call him honey, so he started
to say Nana Honey when he was referring to her. So she became Nana Honey, and I
don't, I don't, it's terrible, but I am going to find out for you, I'm going to call.
SC: Thank you!
MS: Yeah, I'll just call my cousins.
GE: And on your father's side, what are their names?
MS: So Lou, Louis Stutz was the patriarch.
GE: That was your grandfather?
MS: Yeah, and Tillie, T-I-L-L-I-E, and again, it is the last name that I am
struggling with.
GE: And what was your parent's names?
MS: Leatrice. My mom's name is L-E-A-T-R-I-C-E. And her name was originally
Bahoff. And my father's name is Alan, A-L-A-N.
SC: And was Louis L-E-W-I-S?
MS: L-O-U-I-S.
SC: I was just taking a guess.
MS: Yeah, L-O-U-I-S.
SC: Cause we've tried both.
MS: Yeah, I'm sure.
SC: So I think that's it for the early years.
00:19:00
GE: So the only other one quick question I have from the early years is what
about your father's education?
MS: My father went to Temple University, got a degree in math. My mother was a
high school graduate. They were married young. They were married in, if I get
this wrong I'll be in trouble, March and my brother was born in January.
Everyone was counting the months, but it wasn't. It was okay. They were cleared
on that. None of my grandparents ever went to college.
GE: Do you think they went to high school?
MS: My paternal grandfather did. I don't know about anybody else. I just happen
to know that he did.
SC: And dry cleaning did have some connection for people that they might have
00:20:00started in dry cleaning and then on--
[unintelligible]
00:21:00
MS: Saul Kivert. Actually it was my father who started that business and then he
ended up at the factory.
GE: So Mark, I want to now go back and just give us the history with the
business. How your grandfather got started, when your father came in, and
eventually when you came in.
MS: Sure. So, as I said in the earlier conversation, my grandfather was sort of
a 'Journeyman,' going around to factories and helping people be more efficient
in what they were doing. That industry didn't exist then as consulting, although
my grandfather would have been very wealthy having created a consulting
business. They never went through any agencies. People would just, he would work
for someone long enough and he just couldn't take it, and they would fight, and
he would leave. He had a big-time temper, not violent, just loud. He didn't mean anything.
So then they opened up the little place in Allentown. He got one client which
00:22:00was a company that made little girls' bathing suits for what we now call
boutiques but then it was just children's stores because there weren't any
Walmarts and K-marts in those days. So it was a specialty item and it was little
kids' bathing suits. And they were high-end, and he always felt that if you made
for high-end, you could always do a better living because no one was going to
nickel or dime you because they could afford it on the other end. And he was
the, this man, Mr. Paul Yellen, started this business and my grandfather was his
contractor. They started together, so he never had another factory [contractor]
and my grandfather never had another customer. Later on we did, but not at the
beginning. And they did it all with a handshake, no contracts, nothing, it was
all done with a handshake.
GE: And where was Paul Yellen?
MS: He was in New York. He had a small office on 34th St., I want to say 34th
St., which got bigger later on in years, but at that point, it was small. And he
00:23:00did, his business was a very good business. They had good designs, they had good
marketing, and they had quality production. My grandfather always believed in
quality production.
So they were outgrowing that space and they found the place at 4th and Green,
like Washington, I'm sorry, Greenleaf and Washington, down on 4th St. And it was
a low, long, flat building. And what they did was they moved, my grandfather
only did Bru-Mar, the company's name, only did assembly and finishing. We didn't
do cutting, we didn't do marker making, and we didn't do packing. Dive-ettes
owned their own, they were always connected to us, as far as physically, but the
00:24:00spreading of the fabric and the making of the markers and the cutting-- all that
was done in the same space, but that space was rented by, or they shared the
lease, with Dive-ettes, that was Paul Yellin's company. And he had his own
shipping area. So at one time, it wasn't even in the same building and that got
very nonproductive. So they were in 4th Street for a while, until they built it
bigger, and I would say in those days, my father maybe, my grandfather maybe had
35 to 40 or 50 operators.
Then my father started to, my grandfather had a number of heart attacks, and my
father started to do both--work at the factory and work at his 'Martinizing'--
his dry cleaning place. But it was mostly, he would mostly do the dry-cleaning
place. It sort of ran on its own. But he was there like Thursday nights and
00:25:00Monday nights.
Oh, by the way, to go back in history, one time my father was working for
Surefit, he also worked at Hess' in the woman's shoe department. I think that's
interesting to note because in those days he only worked Thursday nights cause
that was the only night Town was open. For those of you who don't know what Town
is, its where Hess' was, it was Town, and it was Thursday nights and Saturdays
cause they weren't open any of the other nights anyways. So then his part time
job, he split his time between the factory and the dry cleaning.
The business became, it got to grow and the building at Seventh and Allen
Street, which is still there, the building. The Levine's-- Jack Levine and Ben
Levine, and another brother, who I never met-- were looking to and that's Ira
and Robert and that generation, their fathers and my dad, they were all looking
00:26:00to expand this old building, which has been a Sears building. The building that
was on Seventh and Allen that was a Sears building. They were trying to sell it.
And it had four floors. And we wanted to have a floor for the cutting and the
shipping, I'm sorry, for the shipping upstairs, cutting and sewing on our floor,
and then the Levines were going to have the first floor for their fabric store,
and the basement for their outlet. They used to do, I don't know if you have
spoken to the Levines yet, but Robert would be a great source for you. I'll, and
I tell Ira, and I'll mention it to them. So that was a big move because it was a
major building.
GE: And that was what time period?
MS: I'm going to say that was in the, I'm going to say, I graduated high school
and we were still at 4th Street. I'm going to say early '70s, '70/'71, I would
00:27:00think. Yeah, I think so. And there were a lot of renovations that happened.
There were escalators in the middle of the building that needed to be taken out,
closed off, things like that. And Dive-ettes was then signed to do big work for
JCPenney and stuff like that but that was before JCPenny started to get really
tight. It was, you know, we could do a, we did the Girl Scout bathing suits, you
know, I remember that.
So then we moved to the new building, and it started to grow again, still only
one customer, they still had no other customers. Do you want me to continue on
the history of it?
GE: No, no, that's fine, that's great, yes.
MS: Ok, so around 19--, actually I think we probably had the factory, the new
building in the late 60s because I graduated, I finished college in '73, and by
00:28:001975 I was very back here, so yeah so I was here on that break and was starting
to work it, and my grandfather was spending less and less time up here and more
and more time in Florida for his health, and for my father's health, I think. My
father was spending less time at the dry-cleaning stores, and more time at the
factory, which was a larger income provider than the dry cleaners stores because
it used to be very good but then there was more competition and things like
that. And as fabrics changed, as synthetics came in, people could wash their own
stuff, it changed the dry cleaning business tremendously. Plus fashions changed,
people don't wear jackets all the time, so things changed. So I was now pretty
00:29:00much in a year and a half or so, pretty much a part of this business. I knew I
was there for the long haul.
GE: And at this point, it was you and your dad and--
MS: And my grandfather, and we all shared one big office. It was a real treat.
GE: Okay, and now your grandfather, at this point, is not in the business too much.
MS: No, but he's a full partner in it.
GE: Okay.
MS: And my father and him are equal partners, and I'm an employee.
GE: Okay, okay.
MS: It was smart on their part because I wasn't worth being a partner at that
point. I didn't know anything.
GE: Okay, and already your father for a while wasn't associated with Surefit.
MS: Oh, yeah, he had, once he opened up his dry cleaning store..
GE: That was the end?
MS: ...he was done with Surefit. Yeah. And Mr. Krasnov, he really liked Mr.
Krasnov. He liked working at Surefit. Surefit taught him a lot. It was good. And
anyway, after I realized that I was going to be there and I also realized, in my
00:30:00opinion, you couldn't have one customer. My feeling was if you only had one
customer and that customer went out of business, you have no business or if that
customer wanted to get it made cheaper, then you had no choice. By the same
token my grandfather's line was, well, where is he going to go with all this
production. He doesn't know anything about that, and he's never going to know
anything about that. So they never did leave us. They eventually went out of
business, that was a few years later. It was, I went, I was reading in the
Ladies . . . , in the Women's Wear Daily, which was the trade paper for our
trade, that this company called Bobby Brooks which you may have heard of but
most of the generation doesn't know what it is, was looking for contractors for
00:31:00bathing suits. And that was our specialty and it was a different size area. It
was Juniors. So I said to my father, let me look at this, because I said we have
to have more customers here. And he was like, okay, we had someone else there,
so it was fine. So I contacted them. They sent me, a man came out, Sam, I don't
remember his last name, but he was funny. He came out, he checked out the
factory, and he brought some garments in, garments that they weren't going to
do. I went to the office and I priced them out, my father and I did. And by the
way, we were very fancy with pricing. We took out a piece of paper, we said that
must cost about, that would cost about and no engineer, no nothing. When it was
all done, we made money. And my grandfather said, if I make for a dollar and
sell it for two, as long as I make 1%. And I said okay.
So we were doing very well, labor was the only thing that we sold, besides
00:32:00thread. And it was before unions, and while we paid a fair wage, you didn't have
all of the union stuff to worry about. We never became, I'm getting ona
different rant here, we never became a part of the ILGWU. Our operators didn't
want it. They had a vote and they still, and they had their own, and my
grandfather was smart enough back in the day to offer them the chance to
unionize within their own place. So they had a charter, and he paid for it. They
hired a lawyer, and they put it together. It was their own charter, and it made
them a union house so ILGWU couldn't strike them or picket by us because we were
a union house. We just weren't their union. And it worked out well for
everybody. We never really had any problems. And we sometimes worked for union
shops, we just didn't put a union label on it, it was against the law. And they
would know that. They would come up and they would marshall it.
00:33:00
Anyway, this Bobby Brooks thing came through, and we started to do work for
them. And it was a big education for me and my father now because we had a big
company with people in charge of shipping, and people in charge of. . . not us,
I mean, Bobby Brooks' a big company that we are working for. They had people in
charge of specs., people in charge of quality, so you had a million. . . And we
weren't even used to that. We were used to us doing it all and just getting
paid. Now we had to bill and get paid and it was different. But it was what
saved our business because eventually Dive-ettes went out of business. And then
we went from Juniors, to starting to work in Misses, then started to work for
Rosemary Reed, Bill Blass, Oscar de la Renta. They were all part of the same
buying group. We became one of their top contractors so now we had gone from
little kids bathing suits, no longer doing that, to women's one or two pieces
with full blown bras and, you know, stays and the whole bit, which you know, was
00:34:00a whole new world. At this point we were averaging about 85-100 operators all
the time and in the busy season we'd have a second shift that would run from
like, if our first shift was 7:30 to 3:00, I remember, then at the 4:00 to 9:00
we would have a second shift. Sometimes up to 50 operators, and we, myself, my
father, and my foreman would run those. So each of us would take one night a
week or two nights a week. I was the young guy so I got two nights a week. And
that was a very busy busy time. Those years were really busy and very good for us.
GE: And those were what time period?
MS: You're talking about mid to late '70s into '96/'97. Around '98 we had
00:35:00already peaked and it had already started to, you could see the writing on the
wall. By that point, we had looked at possibly moving our production to Puerto
Rico, moved to Virginia. I had traveled to different places looking at places
where the labor was more inexpensive. But it all, all said and done, we liked
staying where we were. So the business grew, my grandfather was out of it, out
of the business years ago before that, and he passed, I don't remember when exactly.
And then we finally rebuilt the offices. and I actually have my own office after
a while. It was, they were good years. They were tough years-- hard, hard, hard
work. Lots of hours. But my whole world was revolved around it. My social events
were based around it. And my friends that I went to conventions [with]. We did
00:36:00something very . . . and so did Tama Manufacturing, we invested in technology
way before most people in the garment industry did. So one of the first things I
wanted was we went from, we were hourly, and I felt that we needed to go
piece-rate, and I'm sure you've heard someone talk about piece-rate here.
GE: Right, right. But if you want to tell us about it.
MS: Yeah, so the difference was you worked at our factory, and you would get an
increase every year, let's say it was 25 cents an hour, whatever it was. So at
that point, you're making $7 an hour, which may sound like a little bit now,
well I shouldn't say that because there are some kids that make that now. But if
you are making $7 an hour, it didn't matter if you made one of your operation
that day or a thousand, you still got the same money per hour. So we felt that
it was unfair to the productive operators, number one. Number two, it was a way,
00:37:00it was getting very costly for us not to go into some sort of a piece-rate system.
So we brought on an engineer, I can't think of his name anymore, a young guy who
had been at another factory. He was actually from, I don't remember where he was
from, up by Pottstown somewhere. And good at what he did, very good. And then
along with that computers are just starting to come out. I was very fascinated
by them, and IBM was looking to get a foothold in the garment industry. So I had
a meeting with some people at IBM, and we decided that we were going to invest
in the technology. They were going to give us a programmer to basically live
with us, learn what we did, and transfer that somehow to a computer, which would
00:38:00not fit in this room. Literally, well probably it would just fit in this room.
And the consols are this big, and they did nothing but payroll. I mean a
calculator does more now. So, but it was, at the time, quite a step, and we had
this young man, Vince La Salle-- wow, how did I remember that name-- who was
really into what we were doing. And we were able to create a piece rate system
that didn't have to be hand put in. We actually used a wand, like you use in the
grocery store now, we were talking, oh my gosh, I'm out 17 years, if you're
talking 35 years ago when this stuff was really not happening. And we were
setting up in the same time the Army-Navy store. I don't remember that last
00:39:00name, it'll come to me. They were also putting one in for their purposes, and
that was right before they made their move out to Grape Street. They still had a
place next to us, or two doors away. So we had an IBM34, which then became a 36,
and two terminals, and it worked. It did a good job. It worked well enough that
we, Vince and I, went as a dog and pony show to other factories who IBM was
trying to sell the machinery. We have proprietary, we owned the program, and we
actually sold it half a dozen times to other companies for the purpose of them
to do piece-rate on IMB's new equipment.
GE: By doing piece rate, did it bring down your operating costs?
MS: Very much so. We were very productive. And it brought down, better than it
brought down our, it brought up their earnings [the operators], there and more.
00:40:00The operators earned more. I made that a rule: if we are going to go piece-rate,
if you worked hard, it was only going to fly, if the operators who worked hard
made more than they are making now. So if there was, I wasn't going to--
GE: Some operators made more and some operators didn't I assume.
MS: Right. And there was also the, they also couldn't make less than the
minimum. That was written into our contract, which was fine. But some tried to
make some operators, we called them girls, that's terrible, that's a throwback,
what a sexist way the world we lived in. Operators were called girls, anyway.
Yeah, so one of the things I was insistent on with my engineer was to make the
rate, I'm worried that if they told me that an operation was going to cost 25
cents a garment, that's what I used to make my price. I don't care if it came
out to 27 cents, that's not good. If it came to 20 cents or 21 cents, I don't
00:41:00care. Leave it at 25 cents, that's how I'm pricing that, let them make their
money. I was happier that way and so were they for a long time.
Then things got really interesting because I was not happy with the way the
industry ran. The industry was cutting stacks of things this high and then there
would be people who would run around and tie them into bundles which had the
piece-rate ticket on it. So let's say that you're just making a bikini bottom,
make it simple, a front and a back and a crotch piece. So you put a bundle of 24
or 36 together fronts and backs and the crotch pieces, and you tie them up with
a little ticket. The operator would then reach into a bin, put it up to a table,
have to untie it, put everything in an order, and then start to sew. So all the
00:42:00extraneous time, she wasn't producing for herself or for us. Well at one of the
Bobbin Shows, that was the garment world's convention down in Atlanta, I was
introduced to unit production. Unit of production meant that instead of an
operator working on thirty six garments at a time in one bundle, she worked on
one or two garments at a time on just her operation. And to make this easy, they
had a system that used a hanger with a little clip on it that the people would
feed into one end and would come to me as an operator, and I would just pick it
up, line it up, do my operation, put it back on, push a button and it would go.
Very revolutionary for the time, but also very smart because now all I had in
00:43:00production was cut work and finished work and a few hundred garments that were
on the system. Where before, I could have three to four weeks worth of work
piled up because you do all the making of things, all the elastic, all the
cover, and then all of the trimming, and this way at the end of the day, you had
finished work that you could ship. If you had to rush something to do, it was
easy to do.
Major, major investment and major, major consideration. It was not something
that my father was, my father had a problem with the computer because he was a
math guy. He couldn't understand this, what do you mean you do everything 0s and
1s, 0s and 1s. Well that's the way it works. Well, why don't they use 3s and 4,
I don't know but it works this way. Binary system. So he was not, but then we
took a trip out to Gerber. By the way, Gerber Garment Technology was the one we
00:44:00went into the Gerber Mover. There were other companies, Eton was the one that
they had down at the Tama Manufacturing [Fogelman]. Because Mark and I talk
about that now. Anyway, my father and I took a trip out to California to one of
the customers that made bathing suits with this system. It literally took him
[my father] an hour to realize what it was worth. We brought that in over a
summer, introduced it to the operators, they were scared to death of it, as were
we at first. But I really, I became an outspoken advocate for it, the system,
writing articles for trade magazines, being brought down to the Bobbin Show by
Gerber to talk to customers, going and doing consulting myself. Not for myself,
00:45:00for Gerber, and you know, the companies that made bathing suits. And I feel it
saved our business. This was a major investment, I think it was a couple hundred
thousand dollars. But it literally took our prices down and we were able to do
them for half of what we could do before. There was no extraneous labor.
GE: Right, so you're saying your costs..
MS: Costs dropped, cost of labor dropped.
GE: Right, right.
MS: In the interim we had a, when I first started, when the business first
started, and I don't know what other people have said to you, the garment worker
then was almost all Caucasian, and around here Pennsylvania Dutch, German,
Slovak, whatever those Eastern European backgrounds were. They were all women
with kids and their purpose was to make sure their kids didn't have to be in the
00:46:00factory. They worked so you didn't have to, you could go to college. And it
worked. So there were no natural, there were no heir apparent to those
positions. So for us, what happened was the next wave of immigration that came
in, and that was the first time we had Hispanics and Asians coming to work for
us. And it was not an easy transition for a lot of the people who worked for us.
And one thing that made unit production work is that you weren't dependent on
anybody else for your work. It goes through that system and there was always
something feeding, so people didn't get into squabbles. But it was interesting
because now we had a language situation, which we weren't prepared for. So at
first it was Hispanics, mostly Puerto Rican, I think, I don't know that for fact
because I never bothered. Now I would try to find out their country of origin
00:47:00because I'm more attune to that. Back then it was, you just assume that they are
from Puerto Rico. And then our Koreans, that was our Asian immigrants and then
Vietnamese. And it was interesting what happened was a lot of the Asians . . .
again the Hispanics did the same exact thing that the Pennsylvania Dutch had
done before. I say that generically, they worked so that their kids didn't have
to. Not that they didn't have to work, but that they could go to college and do
better for themselves. And we had a small amount of Syrian/Lebanese workers but
that was not, not a lot of Atiyahs or that, it was mostly Hispanic. And then
when the Asians came in, they had a different attitude. They wanted to learn the
business because they were going to, they thought the business made sense.
So the change was we still needed as many operators but now we had to go to
00:48:00different places to get them. And it was tough to get operators. I mean there
were battles in town.
GE: There was a real dearth.
MS: Yeah. There were not enough sewing operators and more jobs to go and what
was really interesting, and this goes back to one of my few real bad moments in
the business, we had a quarter page ad running in the Morning Call about needing
operators and you know benefits and anything else, right in the Morning Call.
And the company . . . Al . . .he was was married to Dorney Park's, the girl who
00:49:00married Dorney Park's owner--
GE: Was that Weinstein?
MS: Yes, Weinstein. Harris's son-in-law. Yeah, Harris' son in law, Al Simmons,
Albert Simmons, came in and was running a factory in downtown Allentown. And
somehow or other he got the Morning Call to run an article saying that it's
unbelievable that there are actually sewing jobs available at this place. I'm
running an ad that in those days are costing me a couple hundred dollars a week,
and they're running an article . . . I lost it on the Morning Call, I just went
nuts, and he and I did not get to be friends. But there was a friendly
competition for the labor. We subcontracted once a while.
Oh, one of the things that saved us, our industry, us as a company, was that we
were the first to work with spandex. When we first started making bathing suits,
everything was cotton. It was a cotton poly-blend. When Lycra first came out, no
00:50:00one knew how far it was going to stretch. So everything had to be changed
because the same setting of stitches that you would use for cotton, which only
went so far, would snap if you, because spandex went forever. I mean we were, we
made, and I guess Tama did at one point too, because of the stretch pants. We
made the leotard, the top leotard for Danskin because we would just make
hundreds and hundreds of dozens in pure white that they would dye the color they
wanted. Because we knew how to work, what saved us was knowing how to work with
that fabric. That is when athletic gear became big, in Jane Fonda years, before
she bankrupted the industry. That was where we came in, 'oh you need something
done with stretch, go to Bru-Mar, go to Bru-mar.' We started to become, we were
still higher end, but those companies started to go out. Rosemary-Reed closed
up, Oscar de la Renta went overseas, Bill Blass not so much. And then what
00:51:00happened with the industry, it's interesting because it started off in boutiques
then it went to mainstream and it's still mainstream but that's not produced
domestically, most of that's produced overseas, so that your Walmarts and
Targets, those are not made domestically. But the domestic shops are making now,
if they are around, are making it for the real top designers, the ones that make
very small lots. And you can't make, you can't have a big factory going. Yeah so
in around, by around 1998 or1999, you can start to see, I mean most of the
people were closing all over the place. The things that were staying open were
small shops. Jick had come and gone by then, that was one of the big companies
in town.
GE: Who was that?
MS: Jick. That was John Klein and, that was where the name came from, and Joe
00:52:00Jaffe and, oh my gosh--
GE: Were they also bathing suits?
MS: No, no, they were a big company that did, they were just big in town, used a
lot of contractors. And that was a, that company was big, and they closed, and
suddenly they were gone. And all that work dried up is all I'm saying. So now
all of a sudden there were a lot of operators who worked for them. And we were
starting to lay off, we always laid-off in the summer, but we were starting to
lay off already in late spring. Night shift wasn't running. It was getting
tougher and tougher for us to get paid. We were, you know, we were doing okay,
we were used to having, I would just transfer money over to the payroll account,
and now we sort of had to wait for checks to come in. It's no way to run a
00:53:00business, you can't work that way. And so we started to look at..
GE: And this is what?
MS: Late 1990s. And in 1999, Jill and I got married in September, and by the end
of that year, by the winter of 2000, I was already closed. It was a gradual
thing and then I saw the writing on the wall, and I knew I would end up owing
somebody something. And basically it had to do with the, I would have stayed
open for a little while longer but the owners, we had at one time sold the
building to some people who neglected it and didn't. . . We ended up doing our
00:54:00own heat and air conditioning. Anyway, we knew that they were trying to sell the
building. So we kind of got out of Dodge, sold our machinery off, our inventory,
what was there, and yeah, it was a closed door. I had already started in the
fall, in the winter of 2000, like January 2000, I had already been asked to help
out directing the play at the new high school-- the high school had just opened.
And the woman directing it, up to then was used to a very small stage, and she
just wanted some help. She felt a little overwhelmed. And David Klasko actually
said 'oh, you should talk to Mark Stutz, he's my neighbor, he knows everything
about--' Anyway she called me, and I came up, I came to the school. I always
say, I'm like the man who came to dinner. I came to the school to direct that
00:55:00show, which came out in the spring of 2000. I fell in love with the kids, I fell
in love with the process. I had never experienced anything like it. I was lucky
enough that the woman who had been directing the shows until then retired that
summer. They brought me back in, just as a play director for two shows, just a
couple thousand dollars, not even worth talking about. I was lucky enough to
have just gotten remarried to a woman who understood, and all four kids lived
with us, understood that that was my passion and was willing to be there for
four kids instead of just her two daughters in the evenings, because I never
came home again, because you know it's lots of work. And I did that for about
two and a half years with the school, helped build up that program. Then they
realized that they needed somebody to manage their arts program, and I was
fortunate enough to get that job. And I've been doing that now for thirteen and
00:56:00a half years, fourteen year.
GE: Wow, so you had, that really worked out beautifully from one to the other.
MS: Yeah, it did. There were a couple of years, a couple of lean years there
but, you know, I did other things, you know, I did some other jobs in between.
There was still some money left from closing the business for myself and my
secretary, for about a year closing up business.
GE: So up until the end you were at the building on Seventh Street?
MS: Yes.
GE: Okay. And, um, you no longer owned it initially?
MS: No, we did not own it anymore. Levines had moved back over to Tilghman
Street. They were trying to build where the movie theater is. Tilghman Square,
whichever that is, I don't know. And they were, the builder was trying actually
to build the center around Levines to make them the focal point. So they moved
there and they have been there. And they worked for a while. That home sewing
business is not what it was either.
SC: Did they also have franchises in--
00:57:00
MS: Yup, they have franchises in a bunch of places. I don't know what happened
to them.
GE: Right, right. I think, Mark, you did a great job. I think that's really...\
MS: Thank you. Thank you, it was fun to reminisce.
SC: Now we just have a couple of other questions.
MS: Uh oh, thought questions. What I'm thinking about is that my phone's buzzed
about a hundred times in my pocket, and I can't imagine what I've got going on there.
GE: You gave us a very good story though.
SC: Oh, yeah.
GE: You gave a lot of good information. I didn't know that you were, that the
Levines. I didn't know that you had that association with them. And we did an
interview last week with Marty Krasnov.
SC: Right.
MS: Oh, did you? Oh wow.
SC: Okay, so my crazy questions are first of all, what has made you feel the
00:58:00most creative in life?
MS: Well, certainly nothing in the garment industry made me, and just so you
have this on record, I will say it, I hated the last 12-15 years of the career.
Hated it. Hated every . . . I felt like there were so many important things
happening in the world, and I was wondering whether or not Macy's got their
bathing suits a day late. And stressing about it and fighting with buyers about
it and having real issues about . . . and there were people out in wars and
doctors, and people. I understand the reality that it's not just that bathing
suit because that bathing suit then means that the person who sells the bathing
suit on the floor of the store loses their job if we don't make it. And, you
know, I understand that there is a certain amount of . . . but it just didn't
seem that important to me to make everyone go crazy about it. So it was very
00:59:00unsatisfying. Now understand I never . . . until I got divorced with my two boys
that lived with me, I did theatre all the time. I worked at Civic, I directed
before Bill came in as a full time director, I directed at Civic, Pennsylvania
Playhouse, Guthsville Playhouse, I directed all the time. I was always doing
something theatrically because it's part of who I am, and I couldn't get away
from that.
But I think the most satisfying thing I've done creatively has been make sure,
making sure that the arts, music and theatre and dance and visual arts are never
going to leave the Parkland School District. That was done by educating not just
the kids, but the parents, and not just the people who come to the spring
01:00:00musical, but the kids who paint and draw and dance, creating a dance team,
creating a festival of the arts. Things that we've done to ensure that that is
now one of the three pillars of our superintendent's stance on education.
Because that's, I don't have a legacy from the garment industry. No one, well I
don't want to say no one does, obviously people do, but I don't. My kids sort of
kind of remember the unit production system. That's probably it. And that's
okay. The legacy that I'm leaving, or I hope to leave, is all about public
education and the arts. That's what I keep doing and going to . . . and I'm
learning more about diversity. I didn't know how to handle the diversity that I
had in my factory because I didn't know the language. I'm now dealing with that
01:01:00at the school district because our demographics are changing. And I'm speaking
at a conference in Dallas in October and it's a discussion panel about how do
you bring in diversity when you have got such a standard already set-- kids
taking private lessons, private dance, private voice. How does a kid who's, you
know, on the border line of that, get involved because if they are competing
against it, and it could be sports too.But if they are competing against that
trained person, when do they get their chance. So, it's an exciting time, and I
hope to do it for about another five years, and I don't know what I'll do after
that, we'll see.
SC: And what do you value most in life?
MS: My family. It's not even a question. They come, they're, they come before
01:02:00anything. And not just my mother and my wife and my kids, but my step-kids, and
their significant others, their boyfriends and girlfriends. Family, I wouldn't
be where I am today if I hadn't grown up with a family that had great strong
family values. My kids have strong family values. And I think that that is, and
that's a challenge for a lot of people who don't. I raised my kids as a single
dad for a while. Their mom was in town, but they wanted to be with me. They were
boys, and they wanted to be with their dad. You know, I lived, I never moved out
of the house, and that's where they grew up . . . and that is, that house, that
sofa that I tried to get rid of and now I have to put in the living room because
the kids say 'where are we all going to sit when we all come?' Well you all are
going to come? I got two in Denver, one in Baltimore, one in Philly, one in
01:03:00Bethlehem. How are you..well they do, they all show up. And on Father's day,
they were either with me or with their dads or one was with my mom down in
Florida. So they value family. So that answer is simple, my family. Other than
that it is my integrity. My family and my integrity. That's it.
SC: Is there anything else that you would like to say, just for the record?
MS: I think this is a great project that you are doing. I think that it is a
shame that we didn't do this when we were all younger when we had more memory
cells left because there are names that I know I have, and I'll find them, and
I'll write them down, and I'll call you with them. But it's something that our,
that this generation, doesn't understand. The silk mills were the start of it,
and we always called them silk mills, but we weren't silk mills, we were
factories. The fabric companies that were in town, the Schneiders.
GE: [unintelligible]..we interviewed him
MS: No, they were a factory. Howie Schneider, and I don't remember his company's
01:04:00name. They made fabric.
GE: Only fabric maker that we spoke to was Finkelstein.
MS: Well Fabknit was one, but they're not in town, there's only one. And there
were other bathing suits people around . . . Bobby [Feinberg] . . . there was
another, it was big, they were a big factory compared to us [Sea Nymph]. There
were like 250 people. And then in Easton there was A&H, Pembrook Swimsuits. So
there we had a lot of swimsuit factories in the area. So yeah.
SC: Do you think there is an advantage to having a smaller factory where it's
easier in and easier out in some ways?
MS: Well it's the same way with a cast of a show, like a big cast show or a
small cast show. Each one has its own problems. Each one has its own advantages.
01:05:00When I directed Our Town with 35 or 36 people, my director directs Titanic last
year and he had 60 people in the cast. Thirty people in the pit, and thirty
people on crew, it's great but there is a lot of people to manage. It is a lot
of ins and outs. But there is a big value to it because a lot of people get
[some] benefit from it. I'm doing a show this fall with six kids in it, so the
advantage is that I can get really close with six kids, bring out something that
they've never had the opportunity to do. And it's good for them. So, there is
advantages to both. I think the answer quite frankly is, it sounds like a
cop-out, but midsize. Family run, 50, 60, 70 operators was when we were ideal
because we could control everything, and everyone knew our name, we knew their
name, and we knew their kids. It was different.
GE: Mark, Mark, just a couple of quick little questions for refining. So I know
at the beginning when you were working with that Dive-ettess company, you just
01:06:00did sewing. How about with the others?
MS: Well then we started to do cutting--
GE: So then you were doing cutting and sewing.
MS: Cutting and sewing, and then we were . . . we became cutting, sewing,
finishing, which we actually tagged it, folded it, bagged it. We had a bagger,
the whole thing.
GE: Okay, okay. Right, so then you did the whole thing. Okay, got it.
SC: And would you spell that company, just for the future?
MS: D-I-V-E- [hyphen] -E-T-T-E-S. Dive-ettes.
GE: And, um, just one last...what do you, why do you think that the Jewish
community was over-represented in this industry? As owners.
MS: Over represented?
GE: Yeah. In other words, they had a substantial...
MS: Um, well I think it's the same mentality that why there's so many, and not
to be, I don't mean this in the wrong way, the Korean Market mentality. That
01:07:00everyone wanted to have their own piece of the American Dream, not work for
someone else. But they all did at first, and then they went into their own
businesses, and then the families started to depend on those businesses, so the
second generation came in. I don't know how many went past a third generation. I
think you'd find very few.
GE: Right.
MS: Not just because of the attrition of the industry, but in the interest of
the industry. I mean in Paris Neckwear, Nate Braunstein, have you spoken to him?
GE: Mhm.
MS: I mean, that was a huge business at one time. The manufacturing is all
somewhere else now. The Mendelsohns . . . You know, and that was third, it's the
last generation of that company, you know, family wise. And I think that's what
happens. I think either they don't care or can't maintain. . . Different
generations, they just get bigger and bigger because there's, it's just that
growth, you know .. .it's like network marketing. And you know . . . now there
01:08:00are twelve families that you're trying to feed out of one factory. I think it's hard.
I think that it's over-represented in the sense that they understood the value
of property. It's been drummed into them, us, forever of you know you can't kick
me out of my country if I am important. You know, they've kicked, you know,
Tevya's been kicked, moved around a lot, and that's why we still wear our hats.
But, it's, I think it is the fear of someone else trying to control you, or the
fact that you wanted to be self-reliant. The same reason I think they become
doctors and lawyers. You could say we were over-represented in that at one time
or in the world of musical theatre, the same thing, it comes from the traditions
and family is a big part of it.
01:09:00
GE: Okay, thank you.