Tama Fogelman and Maxine Klein, August 7, 2013

Interview with Tama Fogelman and Maxine Tannenbaum Klein, August 7, 2013

SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is August 7, 2013. So I'm going to ask you, first of all, to state both of your full names, and then I'll talk to one person and then to another person. What is your full name?

TAMA FOGELMAN: Tama Arlene Kivert Fogelman.

SC: And when were you born?

TF: 10-01-43.

SC: And can you talk a little about where you have lived all your life? About the different places where you have lived. And then we'll move on, and I'll come back and talk to you specifically.

TF: What I recall is growing up in Northampton, PA. I got married and lived in Allentown the rest of my life.

MAXINE KLEIN: Didn't you live in Hazleton first?

TF: Yes, but I don't recall it -- what do you want?

SC: So your family lived in Hazleton first?

TF: Originally, that's where I was born, my family was born in Hazleton. But my family moved to Northampton when I was three.

SC: Do you remember the address in Northampton?

TF: 2155 Main Street.

SC: And where have you lived since then? What addresses?

TF: Well I lived----what's that apartment?

MK: Before that - you lived--.when you first married--you lived in Harrisburg.

TF: Right -- it's so long ago. For a brief time, I lived in Harrisburg, on Riverside Drive, when we were first married. It was a new high-rise building. Then we moved to Allentown -- to Valley View apartment. Then we moved to 1237 Rye Street -- a little ranch house. Then we moved to 2434 Livingston Street, Allentown, and then we built this house.

SC: And that's a normal progression in life.

SC: Can you state your full name and when you were born and where you have lived?

MK: Maxine Kivert Tannenbaum Klein. I was born May 23, 1942. I lived at 2155 Main Street in Northampton. Then we lived at 1137 Lehigh Parkway East in Allentown. Then I got married, and we lived in the Jordan Park Apartments. Then I lived for two years in Fort Benning, GA, with my husband, during all the "race goings-on" in the early '60's. Then we lived on South 12th Street in an 00:03:00apartment, when we came back to Allentown. Then we bought a house on 21st St. in Allentown, 1118 North 21st St. Then we moved to Muhlenberg Street -- 840 N. Muhlenberg Street. Then my first husband died. Soon after, I bought another house on Hampton Road -- 1436 Hampton Road in Allentown. And then I lived in an apartment behind Wegman's for two years. And now, we live in Orefield. Lots of places!

SC: Tama, let's start with you -- the two of you with the history -- if you remember background from your parents, grandparents, you can chime in at this 00:04:00point and then we'll be more specific.

SC: So Tama, can you talk a little bit about what you know about your parents, their names? Where they have lived? Also, your grandparents and your great-grandparents--as much as you know about your family -- going back even before they lived in the United States - whatever you know.

TF: My parents were both born in this country. My father was born in Northampton, our mother was born in Freeland, PA. My grandparents -- I don't remember where they were from. Oh, Detroit?

MK: No. Our grandparents were from -- on mother's side, on the Chenetz side -- my mother's name was Mae Chenetz. She was the third of five children. Her father came from Ukraine --- near Kiev. Her biological mother was from there, too. Her name was Tilly or Tama -- they [the grandparents] came to America in the early 1900's after the turn of the century. They were not married when they came over, 00:06:00they posed as sister and brother. But I think they were engaged. Somewhat scandalous -- they shared the same room coming over.

TF: I think that was common!

MK: This is mother! This is what mother said. They came over and they did marry here. Then they lived in Freeland. When they first came here they lived in McAdoo, and my grandfather's name was Morris Chenetz, my mother's father. His father came over also, Moses Chenetz. They lived in Freeland and initially he had a backpack, and he was a peddler. Then he and his brother Barney opened a 00:07:00men's store in downtown Freeland. Then many years later they opened another store in Hazleton. That's where the family grew up, mostly in Freeland, supported by that store.

SC: Was the store a clothing store?

MK: Men's clothing - Chenetz Men Store.

SC: Did they purchase their goods from New York?

MK: Yes. They were not tailors. He purchased it from all the well known brand names of men's clothing at that time. His first wife, Tilly, died around 1919, 00:08:00after she delivered their fourth child, which was premature. Both the child and then she died from infection. As my mother had told us, antiseptic methods hadn't reached Freeland yet. She got an infection from an intervention by the doctor, whatever, and then she died. Then our grandfather married again, six months later. He went to Chicago and came back with his new wife, didn't tell the children, [just] came back. Her name was Lottie Holstein. She really raised our mother and the other two from that time on, and then she [Lottie] went on to have two more daughters. One of them is still living, the second youngest one, Evelyn Diamond, lives in Baltimore, no, Washington. So, let's see what happened then with Mother. Well, then she met our father, Saul.

TF: She worked at the Five and Ten Cent Store, across the street.

MK: Is that where she worked? No, she didn't work there.

TF: Well, where did she work?

MK: She worked as a bookkeeper for one of the furniture stores -- Landau.

TF: Mother never told me that.

MK: Oh, yeah, she worked as a bookkeeper.

TF: Well, maybe that's where she met daddy?

MK: That's where she met daddy. Daddy came up with a friend, who was a manager for J.J. Newberry -- the friend was. They had to come up to the Hazleton store. He came up with him from Northampton. My mother said she saw them across the street. Their place was right on Main Street. She was looking out the window and she saw these two guys and she and her friend went down to meet them and then my 00:10:00father said, then, he saw this woman who was built like a "you know what!"

SC: Well built?

MK: Anyway they met on the corner right outside J.J. Newberry. Then he would drive up from Northampton in his Model T Ford -- which had no top on it. He said he had to drive up the mountain backwards because it didn't have enough engine energy, so he had to come up backwards. He'd come up and he'd bring her home from school. He would wait outside the school for her. And she was annoyed because she was dating this guy, and she was dating that guy, and there he was, he was always there--he was just there. Anyway, they eloped.

SC: What was his name?

MK: Saul Kivert and he used the middle initial A. but he wasn't given one. He just thought he needed one. I should go back to his parents. Shouldn't I?

SC: Yes, but what year were the two of them born?

MK: My mother was born in 1912 and my father was born in 1909 -- the youngest of six children.

SC: So this was in the 1920's -- the Model T?

MK: Oh yes, he bought his first car for 10 dollars. His father was named Samuel Kivert. Samuel was from a shtetl in Russia called-- they lived in Verner [sounds 00:12:00like], although Samuel himself was from another shtetl called Peinyan [soundslike]. But he and his wife, Hilda [in Yiddish, Hindelaya] -- her maiden name was Shaefer -lived in Verner. When they decided to come to America, it might have been in 1902. He came over, leaving her and three -- well four -- one had died of measles, so there were three remaining children there - to make a living here. His wife had a sister living in Bethlehem -- she had come before. She had married Coleman, that was her married name. The only way you could come 00:13:00was if you had someone to sponsor you or if you knew where you could find employment. Now, my father's father, Samuel, was a tailor -- so what I understand is that the family was tailors for three hundred years back. They were just all tailors. There was a job available in the Lehigh Valley because it was a burgeoning industrial area, so he came under the sponsorship of his sister-in-law. Where he lied, I don't know where. He probably lived with them, but I don't know -- for two years, until he earned enough money to bring over Hilda and the three children. They must have come over around 1905, as far as I can guess. Then they had two more children, Ida and my father, who was the 00:14:00youngest. Anna, Joe and Arthur were born in Europe, and Ida and dad were born here. My grandfather was a tailor, but then I understand that he opened up a store in Bath. They lived in Bath then. He opened up a store that sold clothing for the farmers -- that sort of thing.

TF: Overalls.

MK: Overalls and that kind of thing. His father was a tailor also and they custom-made clothes. There was an article in the paper at one time. My father 00:15:00and his father had made this huge pair of overalls for an enormous farmer. Each of them stood on a separate leg and the newspaper took their picture.

SC: Was that the Morning Call?

MK : Yes. Anyway, his father, Samuel, became ill -- he had a nervous breakdown and could no longer work. Our father, Saul, knew that somebody had to do something. He went downstairs and took his father's sewing machine apart and put it back together again -- to try to figure out how it works. Then he took a garment apart (a pair of pants) and put it back together again to learn how to do this. He then became a tailor. He opened up a tailor shop. He was about 16 or 00:16:0017. He had a lot of other jobs, but ultimately he opened up his own tailor shop. A couple of years later, when he was around 19 or 20, he met my mother -- they got married in 1931.

TF: Excuse me one second. Where was that tailor shop? When he was young?

MK: I don't know--it was in Northampton. I don't know--.He said his parents lived above the Five and Dime or Millers -- somewhere there. I don't know if his tailor shop was somewhere else.

SC: So they lived in Bath, but the tailor shop was in Northampton?

MK: I think they moved to Northampton. His parents moved to Northampton, as well.

TF: But when Zadie [Yiddish for grandfather] had that nervous breakdown, daddy had to go to Allentown to bring him over every day to work in the tailor shop.

MK: That's right.

TF: So, I don't know in-between there. When Zadie and his wife and family moved to Allentown, maybe they lived with Aunt Annie.

MK: They lived with their oldest daughter Annie on South West Street. With Anna and Dave Plotnick [?] -- his [Saul's] parents did. Then he got sick. It was around 1920 because it was right around the time that the Allentown State Hospital opened up. He was hospitalized in New Jersey for a while. He was originally hospitalized in New Jersey because he was enormously overweight, and he had lost 150 lbs. in about six months. and he kind of lost his mind also.

TF: That is what they say--

MK: This is just how things are. We don't know what really happened. Personally, I don't know how any of them can stay sane - living in Europe with the pogroms and the whole thing and coming here--.it was just perilous.

TF: The thing was they had family here for them to come to. It wasn't like going to the Lower East Side. That must have been a whole different experience.

MK: Yeah but they still didn't speak any English -- there's a whole lot of them--not only them, that whole generation that came over.

SC: So initially they did go to the Lower East Side?

MK: No, they never went - neither parent -- my mother's nor my father's parents ever lived in New York. My mother's family went right to McAdoo-- to the coal regions in Pennsylvania, and our father came right to the Lehigh Valley.

SC: And, there was a small Jewish community in the coal region?

MK: Yes, absolutely.

TF: And synagogues -- even in Northampton there was a synagogue.

MK: Yes, our grandfather was one of the founders of that synagogue. In Northampton -- there used to be one. That synagogue is defunct now.

TF: I remember going to it.

MK: I do, too.

TF: We took you -- that's good.

MK: Charles Glazier and I used to run up and down the back steps.

TF: That's all the kids did--.you went in the basement and played - you didn't really sit at the services.

MK: Am I giving too much information?

SC: No, not at all.

MK: So where were we here? Daddy started the tailor shop.

SC: That is fascinating. So he was mechanical -- in so many ways.

MK: I guess he was. And he was artistic also-- later in life. He painted and did 00:20:00needlepoint . We have hundreds of pieces of things that he did. He was very prolific. And then in the meantime, he also baked. He baked challah.

TF: Yes, he taught us all to bake challah.

MK: I taught him now to make challah!

TF: Oh, you did? Oh well.

MK: He baked cookies--.

TF: But he baked challahs for so many people's Bar Mitzvahs and things.

SC: Did he like school?

MK: No, because he stuttered. He had a speech impediment and he stuttered very markedly. He used to perform in minstrel shows in Northampton. There were minstrel shows that they would put on. And, of course, when he sang, he didn't stutter. He liked doing that.

TF: He and Benny Glazier were "Endmen" on the minstrel show. They made up stuff 00:21:00-- they forgot -- they made up stories, whatever.

MK: He was a comedian -- my father -- he really was. By the time I grew up, or I have a recollection of him, I remember him stuttering -- but not nearly as bad as he did when he was young.

TF: Also in high school he worked for the baseball team. He was the water boy and he got paid. He was always involved with things.

MK: He also learned to drive when he was nine years old! His father bought a car when my father was just nine -- he was the youngest and he would drive! People would see him driving down the street and they didn't think anybody was driving the car. He was very small as a child. When he graduated high school he was only 5'6". When he was twenty one he was 5'11". So he was really small. And then, not only did he work for the baseball team, but he also worked for Schisler Funeral Home.

SC: Was that the Blue Mountain Baseball League? Do you remember?

MK: I don't know?

TF: It was high school.

SC: So it wasn't one of the adult sort of semi-pro?

TF: Not that I recall.

MK: When he was in high school, Schlisler would call him if they needed someone to drive the hearse. So he would get out of school, and he would go and drive this hearse-- and he was little and he had this big black top hat on. He said that was probably all they could really see. Sometimes he would have to go with them to help move the body. Bring the bodies from the place that they died into the funeral home. They would put them inside a basket -- they would carry the bodies in a basket. One time he was picking this person up and his hands went through everything -- the person must have been dead a long time. Well, he got 00:23:00so sick, he never went back again. That was the end of his job at Schisler Funeral Home.

TF: I don't think I ever heard that story.

MK: Oh God, I've heard it many times.

TF: You heard it?

MK: Yes, many times. This is not really related?

SC: No, it is -- it absolutely is. It's showing his expertise -- different types of expertise of many things that will make him a businessman.

MK: He saved up a lot of money. He had a bank account and from the time he was very young, he believed in saving money. He always saved money all through his life, no matter what they did, they always saved money. And when he was young, his next in line, his sister Ida, was a little older -- none of his siblings were that particularly gorgeous-- but Ida was the prettiest one of all. We think 00:24:00our father was very handsome, also -- they kind of got better as they went -- she improved! But Ida was the apple of her mother's eye. My father had said that when he was in high school, he had saved up about four hundred dollars, which was a lot of money then. His mother went into his bank account, took the money out without asking him, to buy Ida a fur coat, which, obviously, he never forgot.

TF: But he didn't say anything -- this was his family. Can you imagine? Oh My God.

MK: So she could be attractive and get a nice man and all that. Anyway, that was part of his character. He never objected, he always loaned money to other family members.

TF: He was family -- he was very attached to family, that's the thing. No matter 00:25:00what! When anyone in the family needed help, he did everything he could.

SC: So he was born in 1909 and when he was sixteen he took apart the machine.

MK: Approximately that. It was in the early 20's because his father was in the hospital then, the State Hospital.

SC: He must have been artistic, he must have had a sense of (being very smart) taking things apart visually and putting them back together again, and he saved money. So he had a sense of how to be a businessman.

MK: How to get out of where he was and into what he wanted to do.

TF: And don't forget he also then had the dry cleaning in the tailor shop.

MK: Oh, that's right. He started dry cleaning also.

TF: I can see that "big unit" in the tailor shop.

MK: See, I don't remember much of that because I wasn't born yet.

TF: And, he had that club every week. The Men's Suit Club. He'd go into New York and buy fabric. Customer's would come in and pick out the fabric. He'd measure them, and he would make magnificent men's suits.

MK: Yes, we have pictures of suits he made for us. Every Easter he would always make suits for us -- we all had matching suits with hats.

TF: And he made all my clothing, skirts -- "skurts", I used to say-- that's how I spoke!

MK: He also did most of Mother's shopping when he would go into New York. He'd buy her clothes.

TF: Well, he'd bring us all things. We always loved whatever he bought.

MK: Everything he bought was always "right" for each one.

TF: He loved Macy's. He'd always go to Macy's - R.H. Macy's.

MK: That was his "hot spot"

TF: Of retail.

SC: Did you ever go to New York with him?

MK: Yes.

SC: Did you ever go to Macy's with him?

MK: I remember going to the Lower East Side.

TF: We'd go shopping there, then he took us shopping to the stores.

MK: I remember going to the Lower East Side and going to some of the fabric places he went to, then some of the delicatessens. Then in the early 50's he took me to my first Broadway show, which was Guys and Dolls, in 1950 with the original cast and then two years later, they took me again.

SC: Which show?

MK: South Pacific. We saw the original -- South Pacific.

TF: I think maybe we all went. Did Randi?

MK: No.

TF: But she was born in 1953.

MK: Yes, but she wouldn't go in 1953.

TF: No, not in '53. But she was little when we took her. I remember we used to tell her -- she'd sit in the back seat with Mama and Pop. We'd tell her to hold 00:28:00her breath as she was going under the tunnel .

MK: Oh, you're so mean!

TF: Well, I guess she knew it was funny.

MK: Yeah, he was very proactive in terms of family.

SC: Do you know, just as a question, before we get into the business, what year he took over the business from his father and when he added the dry cleaning and the suit club?

MK: I don't know--that was all before I was born. Well, he and mother got married in 1931. Did he have the tailor shop then or was he still running his father's?

TF: I don't have any memory of his father's business. My memory is he had the 00:29:00tailor shop - 2155.

MK: He had it in Hazleton.

TF: That's right in Hazleton.

MK: Right after they were married, a week later, they convinced my mother's oldest sister, Ethel, and her fianc Sam Copland, to elope as well. Then the two families lived together in the same apartment in Hazleton.

TF: Alter Street. I can see the sign, Copland and Kivert.

MK: They opened a tailor and dry cleaning there.

SC: And the name of the street was?

MK: Alter Street in Hazleton. And the name of the outfit was Copland and Kivert. We have a picture of that somewhere -- Copland and Kivert.

TF: So what was that dry cleaning or tailor? I think it was dry cleaning, too.

MK: Yes it was.

TF: We lived up above. I don't remember that so clearly, but we would go visit a lot after we left there and moved to Northampton.

MK: Then they moved to Northampton after about two or three years. Tama was born there and Ethel and Sam had their first daughter, who they also named Tama. Tama Lee.

TF: She lives in town.

MK: I don't know if you know Tama Lee Barski?

TF: She has a lot of energy and does a lot of good in the community.

MK: So the two Tamas lived together, and the parents lived together, and then our parents and this Tama came back to Northampton after about two or three years, and he opened his own, 2155 -- they must have bought the house then -- there.

TF: I don't know -- I know they first lived in the apartment, in the back somewhere.

MK: I thought that was when they were first married.

TF: Well, I remember.

MK: So it must have been with you then. So they didn't have a house right away.

TF: I don't know where the tailor shop was --maybe he rented?

MK: Maybe the tailor shop was under the house.

TF: I don't know if they bought it, maybe they just rented.

MK: Well, they didn't own that house 2155. They rented it from the neighbors, Annie and Charlie Driscoll [?], who lived next door.

SC: That was in Northampton--on Main Street? That was in the 1930's?

MK: Correct.

SC: So we can look that up - on Ancestry.

MK: Go ahead.

TF: I just didn't want to forget that our father had this vision, what excited him when he saw a pair of ladies slacks -- was how the pockets were and the 00:32:00zipper had to all line up.

SC: So the brother-in-law stayed in Hazleton but moved over to the store.

MK: Chenetz Men's Shop.

SC: That was his father-in-law's.

MK: Father-in-law, and then he owned it also. They ended up owning it together I believe. And it was on Broad Street in Hazleton for as long as I know.

TF: Well, Tama Lee moved here after Moishe died and that's when the store 00:33:00closed, I guess.

MK: So, their third generation - the other Tama -- her husband -- they moved up from Philadelphia and he went into the men's shop also--.and Uncle Charlie, my mother's brother, worked there for a long time also. That was sort of the family business.

TF: Then he moved to Northampton and worked in the factory for a while.

MK: Uncle Charlie did -- yes, he did. My Uncle was not doing well. He and his wife and children --- they had a lot of problems. So, my father in his usual way, decided to move them all to Northampton and Charlie, his brother-in-law, would work in the factory, and they'd get the children into the good school system in Northampton and straighten them all out. That lasted for a couple of years and then my Uncle Charlie decided he was working too hard and wanted more money, and my father said forget that, and that was the end of that. They moved 00:34:00back to Hazleton.

SC: Do either one of you have memories of your childhood -- where you went to school and any type of specific memories and then when you got married and were you connected to the shops or the factory?

TF: Oh yes, we were very connected. First of all the tailor shop was under where we lived, and the factory was just a block away. So every day after school, I'd stop in there.

SC: What was the address of the factory?

MK: It was between 20 and 21st on Main Street -- 20 something Main Street. It 00:35:00would have been an odd number.

SC: Was that an existing building?

MK: It was a bank building. I have memories, when my father started the factory. It was right after the war. During the war, women, obviously, went back to work and had a lot of men's jobs, and they started wearing pants. The only pants that were made at that time for women were tailored like men's pants. After the war, my father thought this was going to be a big thing. He never had his own brand -- he was a contractor. So he went into New York, and he met up with a man named, S.M. Elowsky, who owned four or five different manufacturing companies. 00:36:00He wanted to make women's tailored pants, because he knew how to make tailored pants. He opened the factory in around 1945 and opened around 1946 -- right when the war ended. He used to go to Atlanta -- it was very difficult to get machinery because this was after the war and this wasn't readily available. So he bought a lot of machinery in Atlanta, Georgia as well as inother areas. I have a doll that came from that trip. I have two very favorite dolls that came from trips that he made to Atlanta. He would go into Rich's Department Store in Atlanta. The first doll was Esmerelda, which I still have in my curio cabinet. The second doll I named Sally Waters. She was one of those dolls where the eyes - it was a mama doll. Anyway, on the one trip when he came back, he was opening 00:37:00the factory in this bank building, I remember standing on the front porch of this. It was just a block away from where the two streets of Northampton come together. I can still see him. He was bringing machinery home from Atlanta. Someone was driving--- it was some kind of van car that they had in the 30's, and it was loaded with machinery. He was bringing it up, he was going to go around the back of the building and was going to bring it in the back of the building. As he comes through this intersection -- he is hanging on the outside of the back -- hanging on to some machinery - his whole body is outside of the car. I'm sure he didn't come home from Atlanta that whole way. But, I saw him flying up the road, he's waving. That was such a clear memory. That was around 1945-1946 -- I had to be four years old.

TF: He was strong as a bull. He was so strong. He helped carry our breakfront up 00:38:00the whole flight of steps at Valley View Apartments.

MK: My mother would send me down the alley, and I could go to the factory whenever I wanted to. There was a little office where the secretary sat -- her name was Dorothy.

TF: Dottie.

MK: Was her name Dorothy Wahl?

TF: No.

MK: Anyway, her name was Dorothy. And, I would sit there and sharpen a lot of pencils and things like that. I felt so important -- I was four or five. Then other times, I would go to the spreading department -- where they would spread all the fabric before they cut it on the big, long tables that were located in the basement of the building. I remember sitting on the stairs that led down to 00:39:00the basement watching the men and they had these fluorescent lights -- it was very bright and lit -- even though it was a very dank kind of basement. I remember they had calendars up with war pin-up girls, Betty Grable and all of these--.and I learned the word "cheesecake" from them.

TF Oh, she's a rotten kid!

MK: Right -- they never took the calendars down, even though I was there.

GAIL EISENBERG: I remember seeing those types of things.

MK: I was at the factory a lot - just because I had nothing else to do, and I found it endlessly fascinating.

TF: And, she was such a good girl -- it's not like she tore places apart.

MK: No, I would just sit and watch.

TF: I liked taking her with me with my friends.

MK: She schlepped [Yiddish for dragged] me everywhere in Northampton.

SC: And, of course all the cutters were men.

MK: They were all men, oh yes, and all the sewers were women. Only the cutters 00:40:00and some of the foremen were men -- I'm trying to think what else--.no, that's it. All the rest were all women.

GE: And they made women's pants. This was new at the time.

MK: New, right. Then they also made - S.M. Elowsky had a company that made children's clothes -- Derby. All bottoms, always bottoms -- they never made tops.

SC: In the 1950's did he make blue jeans?

MK: No, never made jeans - always tailored pants.

TF: And then maybe they made skorts?

MK: They made skirts.

TF: Like pants and skirts.

MK: And just regular skirts they made, too.

GE: We'll get into the business later.

SC: What were your memories?

TF: Related to the factory you mean?

SC: And just your memories growing up in the area.

TF: It was very nice. It was easy. You could walk anywhere any time of day and at night time you weren't frightened to walk the street or anything.

MK: No, no.

TF: Northampton was a booming little town. They had a few department stores, believe it or not. Maybe you heard it from other interviews. Lerner's , which was a Jewish family, Coleman's, which was a Jewish family - lovely department stores. They had everything -- bras, nightgowns, children's clothes.

MK: Miller's?

TF: But they weren't Jewish.

MK: But we went there anyway.

TF: Oh yeah. I'm just saying, the whole town was thriving and it was a great little town. There was one movie. I went to the movies a lot with mother.

GE: Is that still the "Roxy"?

MK: Yes, I went there all the time, too.

TF: We lived just a block up from there.

SC: Do you remember who owned Miller's?

TF: Well I guess they were the Miller's! But they weren't Jewish. I can't recall right now.

SC: But it wasn't Harvey?

MK: Doesn't sound right. I think I would recognize it because my father would call him by his first name. We always like to go into Miller's -- they had a wonderful - in their basement they had a big hardware section. We got a lot of things there. He liked the hardware section at Miller's.

GE: Where were these department stores?

MK: On Main Street -- right across from where the factory was.

TF: It was the "Main" street.

GE: Because I've been to the Roxy.

MK: It would be from the Roxy sort of north.

TF: Well, up to 21st and down to 17th.

MK: Right, between 17th and 21st was all the businesses. Above 21st was just residence.

SC: Were most of the store owners Jewish? Because that was true in South Bethlehem.

MK: A lot were. As she said, Coleman's, Lerner's.

TF: How about the cotton shop?

MK: Oh, Kroupes [?] -- that was our cousin. The furniture store, Glazier's -- Northampton Furnishing.

TF: Well, that was Glaziers, but that was also Roth.

MK: No, Roth was another one.

TF: Oh, that's right.

SC: Were they related to the Glazier's furniture store in Allentown.

MK: Yes, yes, yes.

TF: It's all relatives.

MK: I can tell you a funny story about that - one that goes way back. This is an interesting story. When our grandfather, Sam Kivert, was at the dock in -- I think they said he left from Latvia -- what was the port there -- Riga, maybe? 00:44:00He was on the dock, ready to leave to come to America. He met another man, whose last name was Zowman -- who had a little boy -- his son with him, who also was going to America. The son's name was Cecil.

TF: Oh, for Heaven's Sake. Well, maybe they have some of that.

MK: They may, I don't know.

SC: No, we don't.

MK: Cecil was about six at the time. Cecil and his father were going to America. I don't know if the mother had died already -- I don't remember that. I got this story from Cecil, when he was close to 90. So they were standing on the dock, and they started talking, and they realized that they were going to the same place in America -- into the Lehigh Valley. I don't know why Mr. Zowman was 00:45:00going there -- I mean I don't know who his relatives were. So they made the passage together. Cecil said he just ran all over the ship all the time. They got to America, and they remained friendly. Zowman's name was changed to Salman here, and he worked for a number of years, he got lung cancer a few years after he came here, and he died when Cecil was an early teenager. Fast forward several generations, Cecil's daughter or Mr. Zowman's granddaughter married Sam Kivert's grandson.

GE: Oh my goodness.

MK: Buddy and Carol Kivert. So now we are related to the Salmans. And then the Salman's married into the Glazier's. So we are sort of -- by marriage -- related to all of them.

TF: And then the Colemans.

MK: We are related to some of the Colemans.

TF: But I can't remember who. Somehow we were never friendly with many of the Bethlehem people. It's the strangest thing.

MK: No, they came earlier and as was the habit in many of the immigrants, the earlier ones looked down on the ones that came later. They were more peasant-like. The earlier ones were more well-established. They didn't really want to be so associated with these lowly peasants that came over almost a generation after they did. I think that is a factor.

TF: Oh the Coleman's. I don't know if that was a fact, but just that the one 00:47:00wife of one the Coleman's was a snob. Nobody was good enough for her. She really didn't even want to be Jewish. I think that is what it was. People like that!

MK: We are also related to a lot of the Coleman's in the Lehigh Valley, as well. Any of these old families, I'm sure you'd find it in any small community, if you go back far enough and they all came over at the same time, how many people did they have to marry anyway? That was an interesting story from the boat.

TF: That was the first time I heard that one.

MK: Cecil told me that one.

TF: Well, you didn't tell me.

MK: Oh, I might have, sorry.

TF: Maybe you did--you're right.

SC: Do you have any memories from childhood that you can share?

TF: Well I don't know how it would relate to what you are interested in. As I 00:48:00said, life there was very nice, it was very easy. My parents were known in the community -- they were liked. So I didn't ever have to deal with anti-semitism.

MK: I didn't either.

TF: That is something I didn't feel. I'm sure it was there somewhere. I know my father was very friendly with the Priest at the Catholic Church. He would go there a lot. Maybe they drank -- I don't know what they did there. I'm just saying that mother played bridge with a lot of the neighbors --so, it was a very nice life. It was a very nice life. I don't have any complaints. I had friends, boyfriends -- they didn't keep me from having boyfriends, or anything like that-- which a lot of people did. They didn't let their children mingle with non-Jewish. I guess my parents felt, why take that away? But, I did marry a 00:49:00Jewish man.

MK: I guess the question is, "why did mother and dad move to Allentown?"

TF: Oh, that's true. That's right. That's why they moved--.they wanted me to be exposed more. That's right. I forgot that part. And, I understood it wasn't anything they were angry with me about -- they just felt it was a better move for their children. Not just me -- for Maxine, too.

MK: And, at the time, most of the Jewish families that lived in Northampton had already started to move to Allentown.

TF: Oh, yes, that's right. I think the Roths had moved.

MK: Roths had moved and the Levine -- from Levine and Sons - Morris and Helen moved. And, the Weins - Bernie.

TF: Oh yes, a lot of their friends had moved.

MK: And Bennie and Ann Glazier had built a house in the West End. All the Jewish friends had already moved. My parents didn't really feel the need to move because the factory was there [in Northampton]. He was still active in the factory.

TF: He drove to the factory every day from Allentown.

SC: So when did they move to Allentown?

TF: In my senior year in high school.

MK: 1950.

SC: When they moved then, where did you live in Allentown?

TF: 1137 Lehigh Parkway East. It's still there. It's at the tip of a little hill. It's right at the five points near the Parkway. We were invited to go visit there a few years ago. When we went, we laughed so hard -- what those people did to the house! Naturally, we'd say that! They closed off doors and 00:51:00windows. The little dressing room of mother and dad's room -- they made it into a little reading room. We thought that was so funny!

MK: But the kitchen, it was forty years -- it was all the same appliances -- they never changed anything in the kitchen -- it was quite amazing.

TF: It was a nice kitchen.

MK: After we moved to Allentown - that was in 1950, Tama went to her senior year at Allen High -- which was hard - because all her friends were in Northampton.

TF: I played hooky a lot and went back. I'm in the yearbook of Northampton. That's the school I go to for all the reunions -- because I knew everybody as young people. But, there were nice people at Allen -- I made friends with some 00:52:00of the people there--.that was not a problem. What else?

MK: Soon after we moved here, our father (during the War Years -- during the 40's), he had the tailor shop during the day and Tama remembers, he also worked for the pants factory at night.

TF: In Northampton.

MK: The Billera Pants Factory had a government contract to make --

GE: This wasn't his pants factory? This was another pants factory?

MK: No, they had a government contract to make army uniforms. If you worked in government, you didn't have to go into the service. He was a little bit old to 00:53:00be drafted at the time. He was in his late 20's when the war broke out.

TF: They were drafting -- married men with children and older men.

MK: So he went to work at the pants factory at night to avoid having to go into the army. Tama remembers sometimes he would fall asleep sitting on the toilet -- he would work all these jobs, all these hours.

SC: But, he learned the pants business

MK: And how to do a whole production, he was in charge of production. He was a supervisor. He learned that then. Then after the war, he felt comfortable enough to open his own factory.

MK: He worked very hard. What he would do--.he was in the factory by 4 or 5 00:54:00o'clock in the morning. They would make the goods and very often at the end of the day he would drive to New York to deliver the goods. There were no superhighways then, it was the old 22 -- he would take a load in, deliver it.

TF: But, he developed a very good reputation for quick delivery and anything else. Whatever he promised, he made good. I was just reading what mother said in this interview, that he was a "go-getter" -- that's what she called him!

MK: He also smoked three packs of cigarettes a day at the time -- in addition to working all hours. Well, when he was 45, in 1954, he had a massive heart attack. 00:55:00Fortunately he survived it. He was in the hospital for six weeks -- that's what they did then. He had to stop smoking.

TF: He stopped completely and never smoked again.

MK: Yes he did. He did -- he started again -- smoking.

TF: He told me he never smoked -- couldn't stand the smell of smoke.

MK: That's after the second heart attack.

TF: You are right. Go ahead.

MK: So he had a heart attack. Randi, her oldest daughter, was about two at the time. So he completely had to change his lifestyle -- which he fortunately did. By this time, Tama's husband - Jules Fogelman -- he was doing something else for a while -- but he came into the factory to learn.

TF: He learned, he made little aprons -- he learned how to sew. My husband did. I still have that apron he made when I was pregnant with Randi.

MK: I have mine that Arnold made.

TF: Oh do you -- that's too funny!

MK: Later, I got married in 1960. My husband, Arnold Tanenbaum, was very entrepreneurial and knew that he wanted to go into the business. He was thinking about other things, but my father wanted him to come into the business and it was something that came very natural to him. So he went into the business, too.

My father was -- pretty much - able to exit this intense time and effort in the business.

SC: But, when he went to New York -- he got to know all the manufacturers?

MK: Oh, sure. He knew everybody and they knew him. He had a very good reputation.

GE: But he was a contractor -- he didn't have his own brand.

TF: Correct.

GE: He just made the pants for the label.

TF: And cutting. Some factories only did the sewing. We did the cutting and sewing.

MK: The whole garment.

TF: Not the designing. That was what the brand did.

SC: Maybe we should switch over to the business now?

GE: Did you want to ask them anything -- in regards to their own education?

SC: We didn't really talk about that - your own education, both of you? Did you ever become involved in the business?

TF: Well, I became involved in the business when my husband died -- so that was 16 years ago.

SC: What was your education?

TF: I only went to high school. That's as far as I went. I got married right after high school.

SC: What year did you get married?

TF: 1952.

SC: And that makes sense -- that's the way it was supposed to work back then.

TF: Well it was fine for me -- I'm not saying it's for anybody else. I was involved in the business -- to a point. It was very stressful. That's all I can say -- I'm glad it's all over. Do I have to talk about any more?

SC: Was your husband in the armed services at all?

TF: He was before we got married.

SC: So you were a post-war wife in a way -- in '52.

TF: It was the Korean War. He didn't go overseas.

SC: But you were a post-war wife. That was '45 into the late '50's. That was the culture at the time.

TF: If you had a question, I could answer. But I can't think of where to begin.

GE: And I'm going to ask you questions about the business.

SC: That's fine. I just wanted to put you into the cultural context. It made sense that you went to high school and did you become a housewife then?

TF: Oh, yes.

SC: That's the culture at that time--.you were supposed to do that, to be a good wife.

TF: I wasn't even aware of it -- it's something I liked to do.

MK: You worked at Hess's for a year - as a personal shopper.

TF: Oh, yes, I forgot about that. I liked that.

MK: She was very good at it too.

GE: And Maxine, what was your education?

MK: When I graduated high school, all I really wanted to do was get married and have children. The person that I loved then, Arnold Tanenbaum, he was in college 01:00:00still, so I went to school - Fairleigh-Dickinson in New Jersey to become a dental hygienist. Which I left after a year -- I didn't like it -- it was too boring. Then he graduated college and so we decided to get married then. I was 19 and he was 22. So we got married, and he went into the service. I was a housewife, and I would type theme papers for people who were going to Muhlenberg and things like that -- in my spare time. Then we went to Georgia for two years where our oldest daughter was born. Came back and Arnold went into the business. I worked at the factory a couple of summers, and I also worked when he was in basic training -- I worked at the factory. Sometimes I did finishing, sometimes 01:01:00I worked in the office. Also, for a while later, when it was Arnold and Jules in the factory, they were having some problems with quality control. And I came in for a while and I walked around and did quality control -- for a couple of weeks in the factory. When I was 38 -- I went to Nursing School to become an RN. I went to the Community College, Arnold was still alive then. I graduated in 1983, and he died a month after I graduated. I became an oncology nurse for a while, 01:02:00and then I remarried. I married Don Klein, and I went back to school to become a nurse practitioner when I was 53, and then I worked for Planned Parenthood for 12 years until I retired. So I have a little association with the factory, but not much, the rest has been in medicine.

SC: We are going to the business now.

GE: We've already talked a lot about the business, but we are going to continue to have that conversation. Some of these things you've talked about, and we'll just go through it real quickly. In terms of who started the business, a little bit the origins, maybe just to recap and to summarize.

TF: Well, our father started the business. Maxine, you were clear about where he started -- underneath the house?

MK: I don't know . .. you thought he had an early or a few machines in a garage or somewhere under the house.

TF: Maybe the garage thing was behind the bank, as you thought.

MK: I remember it was '46 that he was in the bank building then. So part of the factory was in the bank building, but the pressing, the ultimate finishing -- where you put the belts in and all that kind of stuff, and the pressing - was done under our house -- a block up on Main Street. All the garments had to be taken out of the factory when they were finished and brought up to the finishing 01:04:00room. The factory was called Tama Manufacturing. When I was old enough to realize what had happened, I said to my father, "why didn't you name it after me?" He said, "I did, I named it after both of you. It's the first two letters of each of your names."

GE: He was very smart!

TF: Maybe that was it!

MK: Oh, I don't know, it was so funny. I laughed at the time. I understood why he named it that.

GE: Just so we understand, at this time did he already give up the tailor shop?

MK: Yes. When he started the factory, he gave up the tailor shop because the pressers were then taken over by the factory -- it was part of the factory production.

GE: Did he sell the tailor shop?

MK: No, I think he just closed it. Because it was right there, he just closed it up and did this.

GE: And just converted the machinery that he was using for pressing as a dry cleaner now became part of that area -- the finishing.

MK: He probably had one or two other machines there.

GE: Now, which manufacturer he was contracting for? And which brands?

MK: Yes, right, a lot of different ones throughout the year. I know Derby was the children's line.

TF: Then there was the Junior Rite.

MK: What was the main one?

TF: What was the one with the woman's name? A name that you knew--

MK: Liz Clairborne -- that was later. He made for Liz Clairborne - that was after Arnold and Jugge [nickname of Jules] were already there. The early years 01:06:00were mostly S. M. Elowski and his companies.

GE: Tell us -- would you spell the name? The manufacturer that he principally worked with was - his partner was whom?

MK: It wasn't a partner -- well actually he had a partner when he first opened his business. It was Jack Waitz. He decided that he needed a partner so when he first opened the factory in the bank, Jack Waitz (which is now -- Waitz -- I think they do -- advertising--)

TF: Esther Halperin's brother -- Jack Waitz. Her maiden name was Waitz.

GE: Oh My Goodness! Wow!

MK: So, Jack Waitz was only a partner for a year or two. I don't even remember him. I don't even remember that he was a partner, I was very little, and I don't remember that name.

TF: Evan Picone -- I can think of more, too.

MK: That was another one -- he worked for Evan Picone. So, he separated with 01:07:00Jack -- he bought him out after a year. My father always had trouble with a partner because he put so much of himself into it. He thought it wasn't fair -- no one else would ever work as hard as he did. So he just wanted to stay on good terms and end the business. They didn't have a fight or anything.

GE: So he was the sole proprietor and he did contract work for --

MK: S.M. Elowski -- something like that.

GE: And, it was just for whatever brands S. M. Elowski owned.

MK: He worked for him for many years -- maybe until Jugge came in. Then he 01:08:00started to move in other directions.

GE: So your father's major customer was S. M. Elowski - until his son-in-law joined the business. Do you know if for S. M. Elowski, your father was his sole supplier?

MK: No. He had others, he was large -- he was in New York.

GE: Even after when your husband entered the business and later when your husband (Tama) entered the business, did his relationship with S.M. Elowski last for a very long time?

TF: I think so.

MK: As long as S. M. was involved -- S. M. was old -- older than my father. He was a real pioneer.

TF: I think he was still when Jugge came in -- he was still involved.

MK: I think so, too. Then they moved--.there were other brands. Those brands 01:09:00were sort of fading a little bit. Other brands were coming up.

TF: They were getting more offers from other companies. So he diversified. Then my husband decided to put all his eggs in one basket.

MK: That was after Arnold died, that was much later.

TF: Right.

MK: In the early days they worked for Evan Picone, Liz Clairborne, and then they got Alfred Dunner.

GE: Bobbi Brooks?

MK: Pandora.

GE: Were all these manufacturers in New York?

MK: Yes, and then they got Alfred Dunner.

GE: Oh!

MK: Alfred Dunner made a different kind of pants than what they normally would make. They always made pants with a set in waistband and a set zipper. But, 01:10:00Alfred Dunner made a pull on pants, which involved slightly different machinery.

GE: And, this was about what time period?

TF: Well, my mother-in-law was still alive. She's the one who introduced them.

MK: Oh, really, I didn't know that. That's interesting.

GE: And not surprisingly, because Alfred Dunner was for a little more mature woman.

TF: It really made a hit -- it was a big money-maker.

MK: Actually, it eliminated a lot of the operators that were zipper setters. At that time before Arnold died (my husband was already in the business, so that was in the early'60's).

GE: At this time they were already producing for Alfred Dunner.

MK: Right. But, they still needed to keep other firms that made the tailored 01:11:00pants so they wouldn't lose their very skilled operators for the other garments. My father believed it and Arnold and Jugge, at the time too, that you couldn't put your eggs in one basket. Because you never know when someone goes out of this business. So they always worked for a lot of different people. Who did Uncle Paul work for? He used to come in as an inspector.

TF: That's right. You'll have to ask Aunt Evie.

MK: My mother's brother-in-law used to be up in Hazleton. He had been a mattress maker. That went out of business, and he started to get into the garment industry. He started working for a company, and he was a supervisor to check quality. He ended up coming into our factory because we were making things for 01:12:00the company he was working for.

TF: Was it someone up in the coal region?

MK: No, it was in New York. He was there, too. During the '70's, the manufacturing began to go to China and Mexico.

GE: To China that early?

MK: In the '70's the factory had trouble getting stuff made there, so they 01:13:00decided to diversify. They opened another factory called Penn Garment that opened in Allentown. They made very specific things that I don't remember.

GE: Separate from Tama Manufacturers?

MK: Yes, but the three of them were owners. My father, Jugge and Arnold were owners of that. Also they got a new piece of machinery from Sweden, called Eton. They took another building behind the factory to install this machinery. It was a conveyor system that would bring the garment from one operator to another, so you wouldn't have to have somebody moving the garments all over.

TF: It was supposed to be more efficient.

MK: They did that. That was kind of a big deal. There was someone who pretty 01:14:00much just ran the Eton production.

TF: How did we get involved with Ed Posner?

MK: Eddie Posner had a factory, and he lost his factory. Her family was in the garment also - Beth. We were very friendly with Ed. Arnold was very friendly with Eddie. When we opened the Penn Garment factory, which I think was on Stefko Boulevard. I think that was where it was. Eddie agreed to run it. He ran that factory for them.

GE: Do you know what this factor produced?

MK: Ladies pants. When Arnold died, Eddie bought that factory and paid us out 01:15:00over the years, until it was paid off and then it went under, because there was too much competition. So right before Arnold died, of course he didn't know he was going to die, because he died very suddenly. He decided, he and Jugge . . . Jugge decided that he wanted out of the business.

TF: To retire.

MK: So they decided to--.what did they have a buy-out or something?

TF: Oh yeah, that's how it was set up.

MK: Arnold was going to buy Jugge's portion and just own it individually. He knew it had to be completely restructured. We had a lot of people working there 01:16:00for the last 30-40 years that were earning a lot of money, and they were not really doing very much and had to be let go. He knew he didn't have the heart to do it and neither did Jugge.

TF: Oh No.

MK: They hired somebody else to restructure - someone who was a little harder and that was Sid Gross. Sid Gross had a factory that had been "Bee Line" and his factory went under. Arnold had made arrangements to meet with Sid on August 8, 1983. Sid was supposed to come to the factory, and they were going to have a meeting -- or maybe it was the 9th. In the meantime, our oldest daughter, Jill, 01:17:00was going to school at Drexel, and she was doing an internship at Tama Manufacturing. She was learning "time study" and she had a real interest in the factory.

GE: So was she doing industrial engineering?

MK: She ultimately switched to that.

SC: What's her name?

MK: Jill, and now it's Goodman. She married Bob Goodman.

SC: And that was 1983?

MK: Yes. On August 8 -- the day before he was supposed to meet with Sid, he didn't feel well and Jill took him to the hospital, and he died in the emergency room from a massive heart attack. The next morning, I get a call from Sid Gross 01:18:00-- an angry call, around 11:00 in the morning. "Where is Arnold? I had a meeting with him, and he's not here--" Sid was just what we needed at the factory at the time. I had to tell him, I said, "I'm sorry, he can't make it, he died." Well, Sid was devastated. So, what happened at that time was that the papers were on the lawyer's desk for Jugge to sign, and for Arnold to sign so Jugge would be bought out. They were never signed. Jugge owned the factory. Arnold wasn't there. Jugge didn't want to own the factory. Fortunately, Sid came in, and he was perfect. And then your son, Mark, came back; he was living in California at 01:19:00the time. He came East to work in the factory.

TF: Just to work. He didn't want to take it over.

MK: It wasn't anything that Mark was really excited about.

TF: No, actually when he came back he didn't go right to the factory. He'd come up and visit sometimes and the people there said why doesn't Mark come in and start working there.

MK: What Jugge decided to do then, which was very good for him and the right thing to do and it helped everything else -- was to just go with Alfred Dunner. Because Alfred Dunner was doing all of their production in America. They wanted a quick delivery and good control, it was an easy garment to make. So Jugge wisely decided, we're just going to do this -- I don't really want to do this -- we're just doing to do what's easy. Well, Alfred Dunner exploded! Jugge couldn't 01:20:00even handle all the production there, so he started to contract out to other factories. They kept 3-4-5 other factories going -- Bernie Filler's factory.

GE: Were they all local ones?

MK: Yes.

GE: Who were the different ones?

MK: Bernie Filler, he had Blue Mountain.

GE: Palmerton with Di Paolo -- he did a lot of the work. He did Chaps.