Leonard Abrams, August 21, 2012

Interview with Leonard Abrams, August 21, 2012

SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER:Today is August 21, 2012. This interview is with Lenny Abrams, and interviewing is Susan Clemens-Bruder and Gail Eisenberg. So first of all, we're going to take you back to your family, because it's really important to show the context of the family and how you got here. So how much do you know about your family; their names, where they lived, their education, as far back as you know?

LEONARD ABRAMS:I certainly will give you that. We'll start with the paternal side. My father, originally Joseph Abramowitz- as I was Lenny Abramowitz, and then Joseph Abrams- was born April 10, 1900, and died February 18th, 2006. So he 00:01:00came within 100 days of having lived in three different centuries. He arrived in this country, he was one of six children; arrived in this country with, I believe, my grandfather and one sister first. That was then followed by a brother and a sister. And that was followed by my paternal grandmother and two other sisters. There were four sisters and two brothers. He arrived in this country somewhere around 1911 at the age of 11.

GAIL EISENBERG:From what country?

LA:Poland.

GE:Do you know where in Poland?

LA:No. I should, but I don't remember what city. Whatever area in Poland it was today it is probably a part of Russia.

GE:Right, or Lithuania?

LA:Or Lithuania. And so my father had to struggle for an education because he was expected at a very early age to go out and help support the family. And he fought very hard to get as much of an education. He had told me he had persuaded on one occasion my paternal grandfather to listen to a male first cousin of his, who had suggested that why not go to school for another year? So he managed to 00:03:00get through the 6th or 7th grade. Never spoke with an accent, although he was 11. You could not detect that he was not born in the United States.

GE:So he only went to the 6th grade here in the States?

LA:Yes. He was very much self-educated. He read, I still remember, that as a young boy he thought so highly of Eleanor Roosevelt that when I delivered a eulogy for my father, I said that he just had this passion for Eleanor Roosevelt. If one would know anything of Eleanor Roosevelt, she was not the most attractive woman that had ever crossed. And yet he admired her. And I think one 00:04:00of the reasons he did, and I'm not going to use names in this. Roosevelt was elected in 1932. Shortly after his election, there was something going on in this area and lots of other areas throughout the country, but especially in the textile business, which was known as white slavery. Have either of you heard of white slavery?

SC:[No response]

GE:[No response]

LA:White slavery was, after all, the country was in the Depression. Women probably for the first time had to go out into the world to try to obtain jobs. And it was very, very, difficult, and there were some textile owners who used the occasion of women really pleading for jobs, especially in the textile 00:05:00industry which was 90 to 95 percent female. Women came in for a job. There's a room over there, you go inside the room, you get undressed, and I'll be there shortly. That became known as white slavery. Eleanor Roosevelt personally campaigned after FDR was elected. I wouldn't say a lot of it, but some of it occurred right here in the Lehigh Valley.

SC:Where were they living by the way? Were they living in the Lehigh Valley or New York?

LA:No, no. My father and mother- my mother was born in the United States of America. Her father died when he was in his early 30s. Also six children. Live 00:06:00poultry market, kosher-killed chickens. I used to kid my mother, may she rest in peace. I would say, is it true mom that in the 1916 Olympics you beat this big Russian lady in chicken plucking? "No it's not true Lenny!" My mother was a year older than my father, so she was born in 1899. My father, probably one of his initial jobs--

GE:What was your mother's name?

LA:Sarah, maiden name-- Sarah Pomerantz. My father initially got a job in a shirt factory, which was what was called a "spreader"- that was taking the cloth 00:07:00from the bolt and laying it on the table, ply, over ply, over ply, to enable to cut whatever garment it was. And it happened to have been men's shirts. Then in the early '30s- I was born in 1931- at about the time I was born, and I remember this from later conversations that had occurred, the economy was terrible and my father had lost his job. I was just born, and for about seven or eight months until he landed another job, he would get dressed every morning and leave the house, and my mother never knew that he was out of work. And then he was still 00:08:00unable to get work, so he took a job as a business agent for the Amalgamated Clothing and Textile Workers Union.

And when we go back in time, there were two unions that controlled the textile industry. One was the Amalgamated Clothing and Textile Workers Union, which geared itself to the menswear industry. The other was the International Ladies Garment Workers Union, which geared itself to the women's clothing industry. At some point, 20 or 25 years ago, they joined forces, and undoubtedly were forced to because of dropping membership roles as products went offshore. So they 00:09:00joined forces and became what is today known as UNITE- Union of NeedleTrades, Industrial, and Textile Employees. So my father took a job as a business agent for the Union.

GE:What does that mean? What did he do?

LA:He represented the employees in negotiations, grievances, wage increases, better working conditions, etc. And there was a man out here- we arrived here in 1955. I'll jump ahead for a moment and then I'll go back. We arrived here in 1955.

SC:Where did you come from?

LA:New York City. My father had a shirt factory in Brooklyn, New York. Scholes Street which was right near the Williamsburg Bridge, and right near I remember a 00:10:00kosher dairy restaurant. The name escapes me. But when we got here in 1955 there was a man that had been out here since the mid '30s, working for somebody else. The man's name was Mac Jacoby. Mac Jacobee was a grandfather to Ronnie kahan, if that name means anything.

GE:I do know Ronnie kahan.

LA:Ronnie kahan's mother is Sadelle kahan. Of course his name was Mac Jacoby. I knew Sadelle's daughter very well. When we came here in 1955, this Mac Jacoby called my father, and he remembered that in 1935 or 1936 my father had said, "Mac, we're going to have to send you out to Pennsylvania. There are no jobs 00:11:00that we can find for you in New York. But I promise you that in a year or two things will get better in New York, and I'll call you back." So when we arrived in 1955 I was just out of the Army. My father got a call from Mac Jacoby- "Joe, I'm still waiting for your call! It's 1955, you told me at the end of 1935 or early 1936 that you would be calling me within a few months. You have to bring me back to New York!" This was very funny. Alright, now we will go back to where we were.

GE:Just take us a second back. Your father was a business agent for the Amalgamated Clothing and Textile Workers Union. And about when was that?

LA:That was probably from about 1931 to 1937 or 1938.

GE:Ok, so he did it for that long.

LA:Yeah, he did it for that long.

GE:And one thing is I assume, therefore, he really understood that side of it?

LA:He really understood both sides. For a guy without an education he was extremely bright.

SC:And when he started working, and he worked in the factories, do you know what factory he worked for?

LA:No, no, I don't.

SC:But that would've been in Brooklyn also?

LA:Well, it would've been in Manhattan probably. There were these small factories that dotted all of Manhattan and Brooklyn, and even later Queens was a spot for many of them. So then my father went back to work, probably in 1937. He was what was called a "Marker." That was the highest position in the cutting process. The process of cutting the shirts, which was laying the patterns out to 00:13:00enable one to get maximum utilization of fabric per unit. That was the highest paid position in the cutting department.

SC:And in 1937 of course there was another recession. That was in 1937 to 1938, so that makes sense.

LA:Yes. And then he probably saved- I knew my father was saving money because my parents were saving money to go to business. I knew my parents very rarely argued, but I could remember it was probably 1939 or 1940. I must have been just 00:14:00nine or ten years old. I could remember a huge dispute. Why? My mother went out and bought an oval dinette table, which was $62. She could've purchased a rectangular dinette table for $44. So I remember vividly the $18 difference was the crux of the dispute. My father was saving money, and then in 1944 I think he went into business for the first time in Brooklyn, New York. I had no interest as a kid growing up; later on maybe in 1946 or 1947, I guess I showed a little interest.

GE:How many siblings do you have?

LA:None, I am an only child.

SC:And did he work for the War Effort at all? Was he making anything in 1944?

LA:I don't know if he was. I know he worked in the Brooklyn Navy Yard during World War

I-- going back to 1916, 1917, and 1918. But I really don't know. I don't think so.

GE:And what business was he in-- men's shirts?

LA:He was in men's shirts. He was referred to as a "Contractor of Men's Shirts." What does the word "Contractor of Men's Shirts" mean? The definition is really 00:16:00this: the finished product was sold to stores by somebody called a manufacturer; a shirt manufacturer. Well, shirt manufacturers had design people and sales people, but most of them really did not have production facilities. So they purchased the fabric. The shirt contractor provided the labor to turn the purchased fabric into finished products. And that little niche was referred to as the contractor. So he was a shirt contractor in Brooklyn, New York from 00:17:00around 1945. I went to college at the New York University School of Commerce, which today is the Stern School of Business. And of course one of the reasons was-- I was accepted into Wharton and would have very much liked to have gone there-- but that would have necessitated living away from home. This was out of the question because it was too expensive. So I went to New York University, and I think I got an excellent education. About that period of time, between 1948 and 1952, when I was at New York University, my father had expressed the thought 00:18:00to me that it was becoming more and more difficult to operate in Brooklyn, New York. Labor costs were rising- the same thing which occurred here in the last 25 years, occurred then in New York. Young women much preferred, even if the pay was somewhat less, to be a receptionist in a dental office. You know, I wear a dress, a skirt, or blouse to work every day-- I don't operate a sewing machine. So, at that time already this was becoming more and more evident in New York. During the time that I was at NYU from 1948 to 1952, my father would express the desire to me on several occasions that the time was coming that he would no 00:19:00longer be able to operate. And then he sort of decided that as soon as I graduated college in'52-- the Korean War was on, and I was drafted almost immediately. I graduated college in June, and I was drafted in November. So he waited until I was out of the service, which was 1954. I was married in 1953. My wife passed away- it will be three years in October. So he waited actually until I got out of the service in 1954, and we started looking around and we located in Fleetwood, Pennsylvania.

GE:And where is Fleetwood?

LA:Fleetwood is a little past Kutztown and on the way to Reading. Fleetwood, 00:20:00Pennsylvania is probably best known for the fact that in the early 20th century, the Fleetwood Cadillac was produced in Fleetwood, Pennsylvania- it still bears the name Fleetwood body for the Cadillac. In Fleetwood, Pennsylvania there was a factory which was owned by Arrow Shirt, which was Cleutt Peabody & Company, the largest shirt manufacturer in the United States. And it was one of their smaller facilities. And at that time they were ridding themselves of any facility which produced less than 10,000 dozen a week. They were getting rid of any facility that produced less than 120,000 garments of finished shirts a week. So that 00:21:00became available. And of course the union, although they would've preferred that he remained in New York, the union in New York, or the New York Local, was cooperative with the Pennsylvania Local because it was a foregone conclusion that if you were going to go to Pennsylvania, it was going to have to be as a union shop. So the New York Local and the Pennsylvania Local worked hand-in-hand to try to find a place out in Pennsylvania. Because it was apparent that it was much better if you could find a place in Pennsylvania for Joe Abrams to manufacture shirts in, than if he would have suddenly on his own go to Tennessee 00:22:00or South Carolina, or someplace in the South, which was non-union.

SC:May I back you up for one second?

LA:Go right ahead.

SC:So in New York your dad's company was a union.

LA:Yes.

SC:This would make sense. And in Pennsylvania he was going to become a union shop?

LA:Yes, exactly. It was predetermined that if he was part of the Amalgamated Clothing and Textile Workers Union- Jacob Potofsky the President, I still remember- that moving to Pennsylvania was not in any way going to preclude the necessity of him remaining a union shop, except with the Pennsylvania Local rather than the New York Local.

GE:And they were still lower wages?

LA:Yes. People find this hard to believe- and I go to China now but we'll get 00:23:00into that later-- in 1955 do you have any idea what the minimum wage in the United States of America was?

GE:I would guess 80 cents, 85 cents.

LA:Very good- 75 cents an hour. The reason I remember it so vividly, when we started in September of 1955, the Union had asked us- because the Union wanted to show how much they were doing for the employees- so rather than start them off at the minimum wage of 75 cents an hour, we started them at a minimum wage of 80 cents an hour. The Union was able to show its membership what a great concession they managed to squeeze out of the employer.

GE:Now what would the wage have been in New York?

LA:The wage in New York was at that time probably $1.25 to $1.50. I don't have to tell you the cost of living in the New York metropolitan area as compared especially at that time to living in this area.

SC:Did you live in Fleetwood?

LA:No, no. And it was easy for us to decide because we were making regular trips back to New York to visit her parents. And it was a heck of a lot closer from Allentown to New York than it was from Reading. It was either you were going to live in Allentown or live in Reading, although it probably would have made a 00:25:00little more sense because Fleetwood, Pennsylvania is probably 40% away from Reading and 60% away from Allentown, so Reading was really closer to Fleetwood. It's in Berks County and Allentown is of course in Lehigh County.

SC:And were there a lot of clothing factories? I know the outlets were there for a long time in Reading.

LA:Oh yeah, there were a lot. Fortunately at the time- and Fleetwood is a very small town. I would tell people the way you knew it was Fleetwood was because there were three signs, each ten yards apart. The first one "You are now entering, you are now in, you have just left Fleetwood, Pennsylvania." It was a tiny community. What made it a little difficult around the Fleetwood-Kutztown area was that Kutztown during World War II was German and Pennsylvania-Dutch. 00:26:00Pennsylvania-Dutch came from northern Germany and on the border of the Netherlands. And Pennsylvania-Dutch, there was bigotry. In Fleetwood I remember the Union appoints a chair-lady. A chair-lady is the person who represents the employees on the lowest level, meaning grievances. Eva Kunkel, early on she said something and I almost threw her down a flight of stairs. I don't even want to 00:27:00go into what she said. But the one thing I will say is that as the years went by, and it's a long time, but rather quickly, I would say within 10 or 15 years-- both my father and I were very fair employers- there was acceptance. And today I still see people that worked for me. I'm still in Fleetwood, and that's another page of the story. Even though the factory is no longer in existence, I'll take you to that when we get there during the interview. So we found that we were accepted, and we were fair and treated employees very fairly.

GE:What would you say would be some of the practices that you had which demonstrate that you were fair employers, and tried to treat the employees fairly?

LA:There were many, many cases where there were voluntary wage increases that exceeded the union's agreement. In those days everything was not done on an hourly basis. It was referred to as piece-rate, and of course it was in dozens. The employee received so much per dozen for attaching the collar to the shirt. 00:29:00And these rates were negotiated by the Union, but they had no idea because they didn't have time-study engineers. What they did is they saw what another factory had- and I can still remember there was, I don't know if you heard of Harris Weinstein. Harris owned Dorney Park. We're still friends, even though we were competitors. His daughter, I'm still friends with- Edie Miller- I'm going to see her tomorrow. Her husband, Chester Miller, died just about a year ago. She was the daughter of Izzie Weinstein, the sister to Harris Weinstein.

GE:Harris Weinstein, is he still alive?

LA:Yes, he lives in Florida. But he's been out of the textile business. He went 00:30:00from Dorney Park to real estate among other things. But I would remember Izzie Weinstein. He spoke with a very heavy accent. I would be in the office or something and Izzie Weinstein would have called my father.

SC:Today is August 21st, 2012. Interview, tape number two with Lenny Abrams. So you were talking about Izzie Weinstein.

LA:Yes. So Isador Weinstein had a factory in Northampton, Pennsylvania- Clyde Shirt Company. And they were friendly, and the phone would ring and my father would answer the phone, and it was Izzie Weinstein. The conversation would go something like this- "Hello Joe, how are you? What are you paying for a collar setting? I'm fine Izzie, and how are you? And by the way, how much are you paying for sleeve setting?" And the conversation would go on like this for five or six minutes, with each one asking a question, and the other party never 00:31:00answering the question. And then the conversation would end something like this- "Ok Joe, it was nice talking to you. Bye!" Everything was not by the hour, it was piece-rated. So you would say it was fair in many, many cases, although the union said that the piece-rate for attaching the collar to these shirts was 40 cents a dozen. Once I got there and I pretty much involved myself in all the sewing. My father, as I told you, was in the cutting department. And after a while I would realize that 40 cents a dozen for attaching collars- the operator 00:32:00cannot make it. You know, she cannot make a living wage at that piece-rate price. So therefore, I would go to the group of four collar setters, and I would call them into the office and tell them that effective Monday, instead of the piece-rate price being 40 cents a dozen for attaching or setting collars to those shirts, the rate starting next week is 48 cents a dozen. So then, at least in my own mind, I knew that a good operator who was diligent and did it correctly could make a living wage at 48 cents a dozen, which was 20 percent more than the 40 cents.

SC:And no one talks about a living wage anymore in 2012.

LA:Yeah, I know. And of course we did that from 1955 to 1985. And I was manufacturing shirts for the finest names. I was manufacturing shirts for Saks Fifth Avenue, Bergdorf. On one occasion when my father was in his 90s, I had to go to New York, and I went into Bergdorf Goodman. and I saw a shirt that I had made. It was a formal shirt to be worn with a tuxedo, and I just asked the sales person to please take it out to look at it. Then I whispered to my father, who was in wonderful physical condition and walking twice around Trexler Park in his late 90s. Then when I asked the sales price to the sales person and he said 00:34:00$180, my father whispered in my ear, "Lenny that's for a dozen isn't it?" He knew it, but that was his way of telling me the way things had changed.

SC:You must have garnered an awful lot of loyalty from the people who had worked for you?

LA:Of course, or otherwise we wouldn't have remained there. I'm going to jump ahead- the plant operator from 1955 to 2000, when I closed it in the year 2000. From 1955 to 1985 I went along and I was a shirt contractor. In 1985 my younger daughter married a gentleman named Paul Sacher, who is still in town. And they 00:35:00both had received masters in business administration from Tulane University, where they met. My daughter had graduated from Duke and then after a year or two of employment in the banking area, went to Tulane for her masters and they met. They were divorced a year-and-a-half ago, but the relationship between myself and my ex-son-in-law is just wonderful. In fact, at the time, I told my daughter Cathy that's strictly between the two of you, but certainly you understand that our 26 year relationship is wonderful. It really is, because the kids have grown 00:36:00up and they haven't suffered. But in any case, by 1985 I had not only the one factory in Fleetwood, Pennsylvania, I had opened a second factory in 1976 in Millville, New Jersey, which is just south of Vineland. And I was also a partner in a factory in New Orleans, Louisiana at that time. And once again the gentleman I was partners with was a very fine manufacturer, and he wanted to have a plant, so we were partners in the factory. I created the factory for him. New Orleans at that time was very fortunate, because there were a lot of Vietnamese who had come and settled in the New Orleans area because of the 00:37:00fishing industry. And they were very, very good when they were taught. They have marvelous manual dexterity, terrific manual dexterity.

SC:And a good work ethic?

LA:Oh yes. And I don't know if you're going to want to delete this from the interview, but what you never hear from American politicians, whether they are Democratic or Republican is that going back to the year 2000, I'm not familiar with it in the year 2012, but the Chinese or Vietnamese counterpart to the American sewing machine operator, in addition to being paid 10% of what the 00:38:00American counterpart is making, they are at least 150% as productive. So now the 10 to 1 wage edge becomes a 15 to 1 wage edge; but you don't hear that. So 1985 rolls around, and my son-in-law realized that we had all of the ingredients to-- catalog was very big, the internet was just on the horizon, and you could see it coming. So we went into a separate business called Paul Frederick Men's Style Inc.

SC:May we have one of the catalogs?

LA:Yes, these are for you.

SC:So we're going back to Paul Frederick, your brand, as online ordering started.

LA:Well it started off as a little brochure, a four or five page brochure- buy a white shirt made by the best fabric, the best make, and we advertised in the United States at that time.

SC:In the Wall Street Journal?

LA:Yes, in the Wall Street Journal and space ads inside of page two.

GE:And you were doing this as direct marketing?

LA:Yes, direct marketing. Suddenly, from a shirt contractor who made shirts for other manufacturers, who then sold it to the consumer, suddenly we were going 00:40:00direct to the consumer. We were even eliminating the manufacturer, and of course there were tremendous price advantages for the consumer. And from the little space ads, it then became a little brochure that was mailed out to the small mailing list we had. And of course as the years passed, we probably sent out 36 different catalogs a year- nine per season- for each of four seasons. And then of course Paul recognized the fact that the internet was the shopping experience 00:41:00of tomorrow, and we created for Paul Frederick an internet presence, which if you go on the internet you will see a lot more than you are seeing here.

GE:So it is very much catalog and internet?

LA:Yes, it has evolved into not only shirts. As you can see it is men's suits, outerwear, and neckties. What we did was there was a natural evolution once he came aboard in 1985 or 1986, and as we saw shirts we were initially using for the photographs a few ties of mine. And suddenly some of the customers were saying, "Boy that was a nice tie on page two!" Of course there was only one of them, which I had purchased. Well the natural evolution, as long as it was 00:42:00initially dress shirts, and then it became neckwear. After neckwear then it became men's sport shirts and dress shirts. And then it became men's accessories- leather belts, shoes, suits, sport jackets, trousers.

GE:And all of this is high-end?

LA:Yes, it is all high-end.

SC:And where are they manufactured?

LA:Today, all are manufactured offshore. I would say we still do some manufacturing in Italy; some of our ties are still made in Italy, and some of our clothing and trousers are made in Italy. We also make a few products in South America, but 90% of the product comes from the Far East.

SC:And do you actually own the manufacturing companies?

LA:No. And the Chinese have become so adept and so proficient. I tell the story which only happened a year-and-a-half ago. When you go back to the late 1970s, early 1980s, something suddenly presented itself. Remember where I told you my father, Joe Abrams, would move the patterns around, and he was called the marker because he traced around the pattern, located it here and moved this here. Suddenly our industry became CAD-CAM. What is CAD-CAM? Computer Assisted Design, 00:44:00Computer Assisted Manufacture. I was in Asia a year-and-a-half ago in Guangdong Province, China, and our main vendor is a wonderful man who we have a wonderful relationship with. He is especially wonderful because he knows I know. There are not many guys who he comes in contact with, so he enjoys my presence even more because he takes such pride in what he and his people do. So he shows me into a room which is all Computer Assisted Design, all computers and all Asian people. Finally one man turns around and he's not Asian, and he looks at me and says, "Lenny Abrams!?" And I say, "Al Panebianco!?" I turn to my merchandising manager and I say, "I told you I know everybody." This was a guy from Philadelphia, 00:45:00older than me by four or five years. I had gotten to know him, and I really tried to learn from him because I knew he was way upfront with Computer Assisted Design and Manufacturing. It was Al Pane, but I still called him Panebianco because that was his real name. Even though he was retired, it turns out that he spends two six-week periods every year, 12 out of every 52 weeks, he spends in China as a consultant for this man that owned the plant that I do business with. One Caucasian in Guangdong Province and Lenny Abrams knows him- 34 million Chinese. So getting back, we evolved from the mid-1980s to the present with a 00:46:00company that is really thriving. But as long as we are going to do it, people are going to say the jobs are taken away from us. America lost jobs. Well, we look at it this way- I look at it a little differently. Sure there were 200 manufacturing jobs that existed in Fleetwood, Pennsylvania for Fleetwood Shirts, which was the name of the company. Let's say for a moment those 200 jobs generated at the time $20,000 a year. Well if you multiply 200 jobs by $20,000, I think you're going to come up with $4 million. Well today there are no 00:47:00manufacturing jobs, but we employ about 120 and probably the average earnings are $60,000 a year. Well now multiply 120 by $60,000- that's $7.2 million, as opposed to the $4 million.

GE:So you still employ 120 people?

LA:Sure. We have telemarketers, we have marketing people, merchandising people, and we pick and pack. Another building became available. We realized the building the factory was located in-- and don't forget it started in 1985, and I was still manufacturing-- that building wasn't going to become available for Paul Frederick anyway. So we had a makeshift building, and then this became available-- it's a 66,000 one-story building in Fleetwood that originally 00:48:00manufactured these huge freezers that you see in supermarkets-- you know, the huge freezers in the back. They were manufacturing and the company went bankrupt. We bought the building, converted it completely, and today it is more because we've added square footage over the years. We probably bought the building in the early 1990s, I forgot but I could certainly check. So we probably owned the building for 20 years in that area now-- and have added square footage to the building on several occasions.

SC:So that's where Paul Frederick is located?

LA:Yes. We also have our own photographic studio, which we were initially 00:49:00photographing in New York. But we do almost all of our own photography these days, which is also a big savings.

GE:So in a sense is this product line akin to what somebody would buy at Nordstrom?

LA:Yes, the product line today- our biggest competitors would be Brooks Brothers, Joseph A. Bank, and Nordstrom. Those are our primary competitors.

GE:Right, and where they are retailers you are a catalog--

LA:But don't forget, so is Brooks Brothers today.

GE:But they still have stores.

LA:Yes, they have brick and mortar.

GE:And you're not brick and mortar.

LA:Think of us as Amazon versus Wal-Mart. Compare Amazon to Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart 00:50:00is bricks and mortar, and Amazon is absolutely no bricks and mortar; all, everything online. Certainly with technology improving all of the time, we're now into trying to see what other people are doing and developing. If only we could get you to be able to touch and feel, because if you go shopping, boy it's nice sometimes to feel that fabric, especially clothes. To try it on, the virtual-- how do you create the virtual fitting room online. These are things 00:51:00that are not going to be in my lifetime anymore but it's going to come-- it will be there.

GE:This interests me because I teach marketing. So this is also a lot like database marketing, and a database of people?

LA:Yes. We have probably a 12 month mailing list today of 250,000.

GE:Well I want you to know my son just graduated law school and starts in October at a law firm, but I am going to say this to him, because I know that he needs to have very good shirts and suits. And I assume this is cheaper.

LA:See if he is going to, you should tell him to go to the section which has- he just graduated law school, he's not married is he? Single?

GE:He just got married two weeks ago.

LA:Does she like washing shirts?

GE:I'm sure she doesn't.

LA:Well we're not going to talk about that! There is an entire section which reads, "No Iron."

GE:And these are still very fine?

LA:Oh yes, they are very fine. Trust me, you just throw it in the washer and dry it and it comes out fine since it is all cotton, it's not a synthetic.

GE:He's telling me, because he had ordered a shirt for his wedding from a place- I'm sure it was made in China- from a tailor that measures you and whatever.

LA:Hong Kong, maybe?

GE:Right, but he lives in Chicago, and in Chicago somebody measured him. I think 00:53:00it was $90 or $100, which to me is a lot of money. And I said that is ridiculous, but he said, "Mom, it fits so nicely, and for work that's what I'm going to do."

LA:Well tell him to try one! I take pleasure in my declining years--

GE:You know, this is the only one that's still alive and in operation. In part it sounds like to me we can't compete being the producer. You can only compete frankly having the brand.

LA:As a matter of fact we just had a woman who came in and spent two full days with us from Colorado- was a branding expert. We brought her in and she 00:54:00lectured, and up until yesterday I had her 280 page report- I brought it into the office because I was reading it there.

SC:Do you think that because you did go to college for business, do you think that made a difference in the way you see the world?

LA:You know, I like to think it did because there were some basic principles in accounting- I was an accounting major- and certainly the knowledge of numbers and the ability to read a balance sheet properly, and the ability to read somebody else's balance sheet. Along about even before, oh it must have been in the 1970s, there were several firms- one was Eagle Clothing, an American 00:55:00clothing manufacturer who operated in Manhattan and Brooklyn. And they made an offer to buy the plant because they figured as long as they had tailored clothing and shirts. And of course all of these potential transactions were going to be stock-based, because you weren't getting money; you were getting somebody else's paper and somebody else's stock certificates. And at that particular time, and there were two instances, Eagle was just one of them, and I looked at their balance sheet and their P&L statement, and I said you know, I just don't think they're going to be able to continue with the bottom-line that they've been able to do up until now because this is going to increase. Well that arose from my ability to be able to read a statement, whether it be a P&L 00:56:00or a balance sheet as a result of the education that the School of Commerce gave me. I would like to think that some of the reason for whatever success there was, was education-based.

SC:So this is tape 3, interview with Lenny Abrams. Today is August 21, 2012. So maybe we could move back a little bit and talk about your mother's family?

LA:Yes. I indicated that my mother was born in the United States. She was a year older than my father- born the year 1899.

GE:Her name was Sarah?

LA:Sarah Pomerantz.

GE:And where is her family from?

LA:From, I'm not even sure- Eastern Europe. But once again, born in the United 00:57:00States in a live poultry market. A father and mother--

GE:When did they come?

LA:Well my mother was born in the United States in 1899, so I would guess they probably came somewhere between 1880 and 1890.

GE:And did she have other siblings?

LA:Oh yes. She had a twin brother and two other brothers, and another set of twins- a brother and a sister who were twins.

GE:And was everybody born here?

LA:Yes. Everybody had to be born here because she was the oldest. She and her 00:58:00twin brother were the oldest.

GE:And did her parents come already as a married couple?

LA:Yes.

SC:And there are Pomerantzs in Bethlehem, I believe.

LA:Unrelated. There was a Pomerantz right here in Allentown. There was Danny Pomerantz, and I knew Danny well.

GE:I think he was a lawyer?

LA:Yes. He was a past president as well of the Federation as I am, but he was unrelated. We had gotten into that on more than one occasion.

SC:So the poultry market- they were living in New York also in Brooklyn, in the Williamsburg area?

LA:No, they were living in the Lower East Side of Manhattan.

SC:Ok and they had a poultry market?

LA:The poultry market was located in I think the Bronx. So they traveled by subway to the poultry market- I think it was in the Bronx. We always managed to 00:59:00talk more about my father's side of the family. You think there were these skeletons in the closet on my mother's side? Possibly?

SC:We all have them! And so one of the issues we're interested in is the entrepreneurship that seems to run in families. And maybe it's not in the needle-trade but--

LA:It's interesting that you mention it because in my mother's family, her twin brother owned a live poultry market. The next brother owned a service station, a gas station in Lower Manhattan. The next brother owned a women's pocketbook 01:00:00factory in Brooklyn, New York. And the youngest- one of whom, they were twins, a brother and a sister- he had a service station in Brooklyn on DeKalb Avenue. And I remember that because he helped me to purchase my first car- a used Chevy.

GE:On your father's side, he was one also of several?

LA:He was one of six.

GE:How about on that side of the family- were they also in little businesses?

LA:His brother- he had one brother and four sisters. Interestingly enough on his side he had a sister, who was his favorite sister, who worked for him many years in the factory in the office. And when my father passed away in 2006--

GE:So she lived in this area? She came to this area, his sister?LA:No, no. Don't 01:01:00forget that was just in Brooklyn. Once he moved out of Brooklyn that was done, and then she passed away. But when he passed away in 2006, he was survived by a younger sister who lived several years- Aunt Frieda. Now Frieda-- I didn't know her very well-- but I knew from listening to my father that Frieda never had one good day her entire life. She was married to an abusive husband, one daughter who stopped speaking to her-- and that was interesting. So my father once a month would always send a check to Aunt Frieda, and the caregivers would remind me- because for the last couple of years he could no longer write. I would send 01:02:00a check to Aunt Frieda once a month. And the caregivers would remind me on those days to not forget to send a check to Aunt Frieda. Well, now my father passed away, and the only time I was speaking to Aunt Frieda since she never made long distance calls as she lives in some place in Long Island. And she'd call me to remind me that she didn't get any mail from me. Well I never wrote Aunt Frieda long letters, I'd only send checks.

GE:Right, that was the polite way of saying yet.

LA:That was her polite way of saying it, that your check never came. And then I guess it was only about two years ago that she passed away. So there certainly was longevity in my father's-- well I should say that my mother passed away in-- 01:03:00My father and mother died on the same day 13 years apart.

GE:So it sounds like on your mother's side they were all in little businesses?

LA:Yeah. They were entrepreneurs on my mother's side. And on my father's side one younger brother was in business for himself, unfortunately not successfully.

GE:Why do you think, what is your understanding or your thoughts about why that was so common in the Jewish community-- as opposed to other communities?

LA:It's an excellent question and of course if we today, if we were to think of 01:04:00your children and my children, well of course we stress education. We stress the desire of moving up the socio-economic ladder. That was certainly not the case with my maternal grandmother, nor was it the case with my paternal grandfather or grandmother. I have to believe that what it was, was the ability of people like my father and all the others to see that in those days the United States was truly a place where you could better yourself. If you worked hard, if you 01:05:00learned as much as you could about what you were doing, and worked hard at it, there was opportunity. It truly, in those years from early in the 20th century, from 1911 going forward, the United States was the land of opportunity-- especially for entrepreneurs. It didn't come from their parents in my father and mother's generation, but they had enough street smarts to realize this themselves. They looked around, and they said, "Look at that guy over there. He's got his own business-- I know he's not a whole lot smarter than me. He didn't really have a whole lot more money than I did when I started. Why not? Why can't I follow in those footsteps?" There was opportunity. They recognized the opportunity and they jumped at it.

GE:Well you know on your mother's side it sounds like even her parents--

LA:Oh yeah. I was not as close-- I never knew my maternal grandfather. And my maternal grandmother-- there was always of course the language problem because all of the three grandparents of mine, none of the three spoke English. It was only Yiddish. You learn some Yiddish as you go along, but certainly not enough to become completely conversational.

SC:Do you think that people stayed within the community, the ethnic and religious community, to further their business initially?

LA:I think initially that was it. And then of course they realized that you 01:07:00couldn't inhibit yourself by remaining in a capsule or remaining in one tiny little niche. So they adventured out of that cloistered environment, realizing that it was a big country.

GE:And those that didn't perhaps didn't prosper as well?

LA:Of course there was, needless to say, and I should have mentioned, because from my business in addition to what this is, Rose Cathy has a business. She became very interested in horses when she was 11. And after she graduated from Tulane, and after her brief banking [career] of a year or two, she wanted to 01:08:00become an entrepreneur. So she has a niche where she makes the finest riding shirts for women who ride horses-- you see them in the Olympics, you see them in shows. The name of her company is Essex Classics, Inc. And she has a very nice thriving business which you see all around here-- she's gradually moving me out slowly.

GE:Is this also an internet business?

LA:Yes, because once again she sells to many of the stores that are both represented in catalogs and on the internet. She has only begun to sell directly to the consumer in a small way with what are called clearance closeouts. But 01:09:00everything else is through the retail establishment, and in most cases there is a physical presence-- bricks and mortar in those cases. So she is also from that, and has created a related kind of a business. Related in that I helped her to get started, and then she took the ball and ran with it.

GE:And even your business initially, even from 1955 to 1985, you made shirts, but you always made fine shirts.

LA:If you wanted fine shirts, you came to Lenny Abrams.

GE:And when you say that, was that just on the different manufacturers-- would 01:10:00they go to you just from the east coast? Did you have a national reputation, a regional reputation?

LA:I would say it was more regional, but then again the men's clothing industry was always centered around Manhattan. Of course as the years passed there was a distinct presence in other large metropolitan areas as well. Certainly New York was the base of the textile industry.

SC:Can we move to what you've done within the larger community?

LA:Sure. Certainly I'm a supporter of the causes throughout the community. I always had a special interest in supporting and being involved in the Jewish 01:11:00community. Early on I was a board member in the Jewish Community Center--

GE:So you came here in the mid 1950s- how old were your children at the time?

LA:One was born in New York in 1955. Cathy was born in Allentown in 1956-- a year and eight days apart. But she was born here in Allentown. We moved here in September or October of 1955, and she was born in May of 1966.

SC:Did you always live in this house?

LA:No. We lived in Valley View Apartments, number 209 for two years.

GE:And Valley View Apartments are where?

LA:Valley View Apartments, if you take a ride over, if you're on the South Side go over the 15th Street Bridge. Valley View Apartments if you drive around there today and there's a good chance you'll be the only Caucasian. Then we moved and 01:12:00built a house on Greenleaf and 25th Street- the southeast corner of Greeleaf and 25th. We moved into the house in 1957. So we lived in Valley View Apartments for two years, and the reason we bought the house- the lot was $3,000, and I could afford to spend $22,000 for the house, so that the whole cost was not more than $25,000.

GE:And I'm sorry, where was that?

LA:2446 Greenleaf Street- the southeast corner of Greenleaf and 25th Street.

GE:You want to know who I think lives there?

LA:Arnold Finklestein, Arnold and Marlene Finklestein built a lovely house just on the other corner.

GE:I was thinking that Barbara Weinrach lives right near there. My children went 01:13:00to her to play piano.

LA:Yes. Barbara Weinrach taught my granddaughter for a while. They may still live around there.

GE:I remember it was somewhere right around there.

LA:And then we lived there, and actually we lived there until 1991. We've only been in this house for 21 years.

SC:So you've worked in the community just generally?

LA:No. After serving as a board member for the Jewish Community Center, I became more interested in the Federation. I was Campaign Chair, and then I was President for two years. When Ivan Schonfeld was the Executive Director, I was President at that time-- for at least two of those years.

GE:And at the JCC you were a board member?

LA:Yes. I'm still an honorary Vice President of the Federation, and I'm an honorary board member, I think for life or something like that.

SC:Was your wife also involved?

LA:She was not involved to the extent that I was. She was always active in Hadassah and other organizations, but not in leadership roles. She preferred to take a backseat.

SC:And as far as the general community is concerned, the Allentown community, did you get involved in any organizations?

GE:Or even the Association business-wise?

LA:I know I got a gift from Mayor Daddona once for doing something but I don't even remember what it was. I was also honored somewhere back for Israel bonds at 01:15:00a dinner. My father and mother were alive then, and so it was for the family because we purchased Israel bonds.

SC:And did you work with Arnold Delin in his association?

LA:No. Don't forget Arnold Dellin's association was to represent manufacturers that were controlled by the International Ladies Garment Workers' Union. Arnold, or as I call him "Armold"-- because I know him very well-- Arnold had nothing to 01:16:00do with menswear.

SC:So you knew him as a friend, not involved with his association?

LA:Right. And I watched with interest his declining membership, and I pointed out some 20 years before it broke up that he was going to wind up with two.

SC:As the contractors moved south--

LA:As the contractors disappeared-- it wasn't only a question of moving South. Some used the South as an intermediary stopping point on the way to Asia or Central America, or Mexico. Some didn't-- some were smart enough to figure out, "why should I go from the slate belt of Pennsylvania to Mississippi for 2.5 years when I'm going to end up in the Far East?"

GE:And a lot just left-- they left the whole industry. I'm assuming also, I don't know if this is correct or not, but as it became more productive, I assume they just needed fewer of the contractors. The same factory was just producing more shirts than they were used to producing.

LA:The same factory in the United States?

GE:Right, or wherever it was. Here and then later there-- it was becoming more automated.

LA:No. The textile industry became somewhat automated, but nothing comparable to so many other industries. I remember Keebler had a factory right on I-78, which 01:18:00employed one person. So our industry became somewhat automated. The Computer Assisted Design and Manufacturers helped, but the greatest assistance that came- instead of somebody standing at a table with huge patterns. It was all reduced to miniatures on a screen, and you moved it around on a screen and pressed a button. That's where the primary move came. Most of these products in the textile industry are labor-intensive products. A shirt is a very labor intensive product.

GE:Is it still?

LA:Yes, it's a very labor intensive product. Quite obviously the more 01:19:00complicated the garment, the more of an intensity of labor is needed. The more intense the labor requirements, the greater the benefit of going overseas. To make something very simple- let's look at a napkin, just sewing the four edges-- you could probably still make that in the United States, because labor is such an insignificant part of that product. This shirt for example, the labor is a very, very significant part.

SC:And I really like that shirt by the way- it's a very nice shirt.

LA:Even at age 81, I'm proud of what I think I've been able to accomplish over a 57 year period or whatever it is.

SC:And it's still going.

LA:Yeah. And I still enjoy going in several times a week. I would have been there today had we not had this interview. Because quite candidly-- and I love Nate Braunstein who is a dear friend of mine and Milten Sheftel who I have known forever. I find that by staying active, even at this age, that only I believe it, whether it's true, that I'm somewhat better off than some of my 01:21:00contemporaries who have stopped doing that.

SC:I have two very filmy questions- getting deeper-into-things questions. The first one is: what has made you feel the most creative in life?

LA:Creative?

SC:In the broadest sense; artistic or creative?

LA:I'm not an especially creative or artistic person. My wife was very creative and artistic. I

pride myself more in the ability to execute.

SC:That's creative! That's very creative!

LA:Given a certain scenario, I am probably best at bringing that from the creative birth, to the finished unit.

SC:But it's a practical creativity.

LA:I can, you know, the years have given me an insight, and I can recognize probably more quickly than some people in terms of what is going to be good and what is not going to be good. I must say that I'm not the most creative or artistic guy that there ever was. If I rated myself from one to ten on an artistic-creative scale, I'd be down around two, three, or four. I'm not going to be up to six, seven, eight, nine, ten. But I can execute.

SC:Do you think that's a key to what makes a good business person?

LA:I think if you are going to manufacture something, you better damn well know how to execute; because that is where it's at. Getting it from what somebody 01:23:00thinks is going to be really good to a finished product with everything it takes to alter this, that, compromise this or that, but get to the finished product. I think that's my strong suit.

GE:And of the various types of executions that you've done over the years, is there any that you feel would be at the apex of what you thought made you the most proud?

LA:I think that the ability to sit with you today, at this age, and know that with my help and assistance, and whatever cooperation, that this survives. And my daughter has Essex Classics, which is very successful. I think that is what 01:24:00gives me the most pride-- the fact that so many other people that I know were able to go so far. And then whether the sign of the times, the inability to move faster into another area, where they have given up, I managed to survive it and still be a presence today at this point.

SC:What do you value most in life?

LA:I think- I always tell this to my daughter-- character. I often say to my daughter and my ex-son-in-law, if I interview somebody for a job, the most important thing to me, and I've learned that, is not do they have the knowledge 01:25:00and the capability right now to do this job. That's secondary. Do they have character? Because you either have it or you don't. So the ability to tell and to discern character in somebody else. I had in 1976-- I was operating in Fleetwood, Pennsylvania-- and the accounting firm I used was in New York City. They sent out somebody to do the quarterly audit for me in the business. This particular occasion it was a very heavyset, very young, heavy-accented Italian man. And in order to be polite during his first visit-- his name was Rossolino 01:26:00Alino. I said Ross, if you need a place to stay tonight- I recommended the Holiday Inn on 309 and 22, which is now a Days Inn, I believe. Earlier in the day he said, "I thank you but I don't need a place to stay because I have a friend in Kutztown." All day long this guy with a very heavy Italian accent from New York, I'm thinking, "How does he wind up with a Pennsylvania-Dutch friend?"