00:00:00Alanna Berger
2020-07-28
BLAISE LIFFICK: B-L-A-I-S-E L-I-F "F," as in "Frank," I-C-K.
LIZ BRADBURY: Alanna, could you say your name once again, because I forgot to
turn on the other backup audio recording? So, say that again and do that, so
it's on there.
ALANNA BERGER: All right. Alanna A-L-A-N-N-A Berger B-E-R-G-E-R.
LB: Great, and can you please share your birth dates?
AB: 7-20-54.
BL: 3-30-53.
LB: Okay. And you're in what town?
AB: We are in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.
LB: Okay. So, this is the consent portion. Do you consent to this interview today?
AB: Absolutely.
BL: Yes.
LB: Okay. And do you consent to having this interview be transcribed,
digitalized and made publicly available online, in searchable format?
BL: Yes.
AB: Yes.
LB: Do you consent to the LGBT archive using your interview for educational
purposes and other -- in other formats, including films, articles, websites,
presentations and other formats we may not even know about yet?
BL: Yes.
AB: Yes.
LB: Do you understand that you will have thirty days after the electronic
delivery of the transcript to review your interview, identify any parts you
would like to delete and or withdraw from your interview and withdraw your
interview from the project?
AB: Yes.
BL: Yes.
LB: Great, can you tell me what your ZIP Code is?
AB: 17055.
LB: Now, they also want to know, even though you've already given your date of
birth, what your ages are. It says --
AB: I'm sixty-six.
BL: I'm sixty-seven.
LB: Okay. And how do you identify within the greater LGBTA community?
AB: Allies.
BL: Definitely.
LB: Okay. And so, you don't identify as LGBT part of the community, other than
allies, so that's great. And I want to say, since we're talking about this --
because I've had other people who are part of the extended family of our
community. So, explain why you are part of this community and why I see you as
part of this community and your support of the community that you've done? I can
see you're wearing your t-shirts, so go ahead and mention that. (laughter)
AB: Well, as I was growing up, I've always known gays and lesbians. My father
had a gay cousin. When I went away to school at the university of Maryland, as
part of the women's center, I think it was half straight women, half lesbians.
We had gay friends on campus. So, I've always known people, but it wasn't until
the -- we got involved in with the Silent Witness in Harrisburg, that we really
became advocates. And at that point, we became part of the Silent Witness and we
changed it to Silent Witness Peacekeepers Alliance.
But we also got involved with Advocacy, which is where we met you. Especially in
the Freedom to Marry movement. And so, we felt it was really important for
straight people to stand up and deal with homophobia, just like it's important
for white people to stand up and deal with racism. And so, that's been part of
our journey. It became a spiritual path in some respects with Silent Witnesses.
And over the course of time, you know, we used to say, "Oh, well, we're
straight, our kids are straight." You know, and now we have a daughter who
identifies as bisexual and a daughter who is transgender. And we also have a
daughter whose gender expression is more male. So, we've learned so much about
the community. I now have a nephew who came out a few months ago. So, you know,
and Blaise has a niece who came out. I mean, so --
LB: Yeah, you're in the thick of it.
AB: Now, yeah --
BL: We have a lot of connections.
LB: Could you also just briefly explain what Silent Witness did? Because that
was such an important part, and somebody will look at this and they may not know
that stuff.
AB: Right. With Silent Witness Peacekeepers, we had originally gotten involved
with the Silent Witnesses from the MCC Church in Harrisburg. And Westboro
Baptist Church was coming to town and they needed help and Blaise and I ended up
getting involved. We went through their training and it was at the showing of
"Jim in Bold" at Penn State -- or at William Penn Museum, in Harrisburg. And it
was such an amazing experience to be involved in that. And they kept asking us
to help until we ended up helping in 2005 with a Pride Festival in Harrisburg
and it was one of the worst days of my life to see such a large group of forty
-- fifty protestors. And it was so awful, I had nightmares. And we decided we
wanted to do something more than just stand there with signs. And so, we kind of
went back to the drawing board and worked with the original Silent Witnesses. We
came up with the strategy of upholding the rainbow umbrellas. And, you know,
Blaise had the --
BL: Safety vests.
AB: -- safety vests. And we changed the strategy of the counter-protestors to
actively escorting people past the protestors. And that strategy was so
effective. Within a couple years, people would say, "I never saw the protestors.
Where were they?" Even though, when you look at the pictures, you can see their
great, big signs behind our umbrellas. You know, it was still, you know,
something that really made people feel safe. Just a couple weeks ago, I was on a
Zoom call and somebody said, "Oh, and you have to know Alanna Berger. She
created this group that back at Lehigh Valley Pride, when the protestors walked
into the festival, she was there. And I felt safe." You know, this is so many
years later and we still hear that.
BL: Yeah, but our main job, of course, is to stand between the street preachers
at LGBT events and prevent any kind of confrontations from happening, that would
spoil the event. And, you know, we try actively to keep any kind of
confrontation from happening, so that there aren't any arrests and that
everybody has their right of free speech. And everybody can enjoy themselves at
the festival.
LB: I'm so glad you did that and it was an education for me as well and I think
one of the things I really found out about it was, the biggest danger was not
really -- the scary, bad people were bad, and the LGBT people, for the most
part, could move through that, because we're used to it. But the straight people
that were our allies wanted to confront the anti-people and the anti-people, we
knew, had made a living from suing people who had physically confronted them.
They would taunt them into a physical confrontation. And I think, you know, I've
been -- this Reading Pride Festival which just happened, which I don't really
know how that worked, but that was the first time I haven't been at any one of
the Pride Festivals in Lehigh Valley or Reading Pride. I didn't even watch it.
So, I forgot that it was on. But I've been at all the main Pride Festivals and
the anti-presence dwindled out. And I think it was because of you. I think it
really was effective to just quietly ignore them that it was really --
BL: We like to think that.
LB: Well, I think it really --
BL: We're happy to take credit for some of that.
LB: I will be happy to give you credit for that, because I absolutely think that
the last thing these folks wanted was for people to ignore them.
BL: Well, it was also important to us to be a symbol to the LGBT community. To
stand up for them and to actually stand in front of these protestors and make it
clear that we aren't going to accept what they had to say either, you know? Just
because we were silent, didn't mean that we weren't sending an important message.
LB: That's really good.
BL: And that message was being LGBT is okay, you know?
LB: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
BL: And we were going to protect their rights as much or even more vociferously
than we would the street preachers for their right and free speech and
expression of religion. And that was one of the reasons we chose rainbow
umbrellas to be a really large symbol. You know, something people can see from a
distance and know that people are standing up for them.
AB: Yeah, at the very beginning, we recruited straight people to help us because
we felt members of the LGBT community should be able to enjoy the festival. They
needed to be inside the festival and so, we've recruited straight people. I
remember at one point I was giving a presentation to Common Roads Kids, prior to
the Harrisburg Pride. And they asked me how I could do this work. And I said,
"Well, I'm straight. What these guys say means nothing to me." I said, "If they
were attacking Jews, I might feel differently." And then right after that, the
Westboro Baptist Church started going after the Jewish community. And suddenly
it was like, "Oh no." You know, so I think that's why I know it's important
work, you know?
LB: Yeah.
AB: When I think about the Holocaust and it's like, "Well, they came for the
gays first and then they came for the Jews." So, for me, I could not stand idly
by in the blood of my neighbor. And I thought it was really important that we
all have to stand up for each other and let us do the heavy work, while you all
be in the festival and learn and network and, you know, see who all is there. We
got all these resources together for the community, let us deal with the street preachers.
LB: Yeah, well, you did a great job. Thank you very much for doing that.
AB: You bet.
LB: I really appreciate it. So, one of the things we usually start out with is
-- let me find my startup questions. Uh-oh, one, two, three. Here it is. Okay.
So, you just recently moved, didn't you? To a new place?
AB: Yes
BL: Yes.
LB: Are you hating that or loving it?
AB: Well, we're --
LB: Or something in between?
BL: Mostly loving.
LB: Good, good.
AB: Yeah, it's a brand-new house and so, we're working out some of the kinks,
but it's in between two of our kids.
LB: Oh, well that's good.
AB: And two of our kids with grandchildren. So, it was really wonderful at
first, before COVID. Because we were getting to spend so much time with the
grandkids. And, you know, so, that part's been really fun. Since COVID, we went
through a period of isolation because my son-in-law had to go back to work. And
my daughter's working from home. And they were afraid that -- you know, they
didn't want to infect us. And Blaise's son is also working from home and -- but
his boys spend time with their mom and his son didn't trust that they wouldn't
do something. So, we haven't really been able to see them either. Yeah, the
house is great. I mean, we've got all this extra time now to fix it up.
BL: And one of the reasons we moved up here is I retired. And so, getting closer
to the grandkids was a priority. We also wanted more of a townhouse situation,
so there wasn't any yard to take care of. And they were building some new stuff,
fairly near where our grandkids are, our kids and our grandkids. And so, that
was the major emphasis. But we really like this area.
LB: Oh, good.
BL: It's worked out well for us in a lot of different ways.
LB: Good. So, it's just you two in the place?
BL: Yes.
LB: Because I --
BL: Us and our dog, Brighid.
LB: Okay. Well, dogs matter because the animals really matter. Certainly true
and I've talked to -- this is my fifteenth COVID interview and I did ten
HIV/AIDS interviews for people who lived through the AIDS epidemic too. This was
all crammed into this short amount of time, but the people have been vastly
different, in terms of the people I've been talking to and I've just been
talking to somebody who's really alone, who really doesn't even have a dog. So,
it's an interesting thing to have some people who have large numbers of people
in their house and other people -- how different that is for them. So, are you
communicating with your grandkids and your family and stuff online? Are you
doing Zoom stuff with them or --
BL: Oh, yeah.
AB: Yeah, we had a situation after the kids went to virtual learning -- after
the grandkids went to virtual learning. I was Skyping with the grandsons, trying
to help them with their homework, because mom was still -- you know, she was
still working. And their dad wasn't home, so I would Skype, so that they could
share their screens and I could see what they were looking at and I would help
with their homework. And that was frustrating, but also fun. You know, because
at one point, you know, I would say something to one of the boys and he'd say,
"Yeah, I could do this faster, but I really like being on the phone with you."
But one day, he just -- he was sitting there and then he just started staring
out the window and tears were just rolling down his face.
And he said, "I hate COVID. I may never see you again." And I started crying and
Blaise started crying. And I called my daughter and I said, "You know, we've
been isolated alone, separately, how do you feel about us coming over?" And so,
we started going over, wearing masks and all that kind of stuff, for a while.
And then we just kind of -- you know, things have improved in Cumberland County.
So, I go over several times a week now, to see them. But yeah, that was -- we
were having some Zoom chats with our kids. And then some other political things
happened and we -- the kids don't agree with each other and so, we've kind of
cut those down to just smaller -- because we have six kids. He had three, I had
two and then we adopted Ashley. And so, you know, it's a large group of kids.
And we just do them individually now.
BL: But we also get together weekly with a group of friends.
LB: Oh, that's great.
BL: We have actually started doing that in person, once a month. And we've been
doing that for, what? Two years?
AB: Two years.
BL: And then when this hit, we decided, "You know what? While, we're not going
to do what we used to do once a month, we're going to get together on a weekly
basis and just check in with everybody. Make sure everybody's okay and, you
know, if there's anybody in need, we'll find a way to help." And we've continued
that now. The group has dwindled own to just a core few. But I still feel it's
important to have that face-to-face contact, if not, person-to-person. While
talking to people on the phone is nice, seeing them is just better.
LB: It is.
BL: And it's been important for me to be able to see people and keep in touch
with them that way.
LB: Yeah, good. So, let me see here. Yeah, some of this stuff is -- now, you're
probably too existential for this. You are really thinking about the questions
instead of people going "ahhh". So, like I just talked to somebody who was 22,
they just graduated, and they were so cavalier about everything. And this is a
trans kid who just graduated from Moravian and is going into graduate school at
Lehigh and had to leave Moravian at the end and, you know, went -- but their
parents don't support them. So, they couldn't go home. So, they had to go into
-- this is the interesting story.
They had to go with a friend to her house, with her parents, in Massachusetts
and this young person has been there for five months with these people. And I
said, "Well, are they there now?" I was talking to him and he goes, "Well, they
went on vacation and she had to go back to school." I said, "You're alone in the
parents' house? Where are you?" And he said, "It's Hampton, Massachusetts. It's
in the middle of the woods." I said, "Well, do you go out for walks?" He said,
"No, there's bears." (laughter) And then I said, "What are you doing inside?"
and he said, "You know, I'm doing this stuff." And he was so calm about
everything. I thought, "Okay." And this is a tough situation, you know, in a lot
of ways. He goes, "Well, my cat is here." You know, so, he was just -- I
thought, "This is a person." You know, I guess maybe it's a little bit of the
effect of being 22 and thinking, "I've got my whole life to forget about this."
BL: Well, yeah, they're pretty resilient at that age.
LB: Yeah, yeah. And for those of us who are old, we're thinking, like, "Am I
ever going to stop being angry?" And I was just talking to a good friend, just
the last person I spoke to, and she said, "I'm angry all the time. I was never
like that before. I was pissed off all the time." So, I said, "Yeah, it's going
to be hard to stop doing that, if we can ever stop doing that." So, you're not
working. So, you don't have to be worrying about being laid off and that's a
good thing. You have family around. So, what do you think about Rachel Levine?
We want to talk to everybody about that, because we love Rachel Levine.
BL: You know, we love Rachel. She's just terrific. And we've known her for quite
some time.
AB: Yeah, we met her -- because I was going back in my mind when I saw the
question. We met her at a GSA summit. Do you remember those? That Louie Marvin
had started.
LB: Yeah, yeah.
AB: And we met Doctor Levine and we were so blown away by her presentation. We
went up afterwards, you know, stood there looking like groupies. And got her
contact information. And she has been such a powerful resource, even way back
when. You know, because Blaise had done the Safe Zone training. And would get
trans kids and needed advice. I used her as a resource for the class I taught at
Lebanon Valley College. And when I saw that she was appointed by Governor Wolf,
I was like, "Oh, the best person ever."
LB: Yeah, I know. I know, lucky.
AB: And, you know, with COVID, I watch the news -- the broadcasts of Doctor
Levine and Governor Wolf, just to see her. Because she is so calm. She is just
grace under fire. And I am just -- wow. We would not be where we are today in
Pennsylvania, if it wouldn't be for her.
BL: I wish there was somebody nationally who had her depth of understanding and
compassion. Doctor Fauci is great, but he doesn't get to say much anymore and --
LB: Right, well, that's the thing.
BL: We really need that. The country really needs that. And so, I think Doctor
Levine has been just tremendously helpful to this state and has done an
extremely important service for us. Aside from all that, I think she's just a
wonderful person all the way around. And I find her completely trustworthy. Just
in anything that I've heard her say or read that she's said, that I question.
And it's not that I will take everything she says as gospel, but, you know, it's
pretty close to it.
LB: Well, I think certainly we're in the position where, you know, we don't know
anything about -- this is an illness that -- I just read an article in the New
York Times that said it'll be, you know, thirty years before we really
understand everything about this. But the thing you can count on from her is
she's not making this stuff up. She's not just saying this stuff for political
clout or this would sound good or Governor Wolf is telling her to say it, you know?
BL: Yeah, well, politics doesn't have anything to do with it for her.
LB: Right.
BL: It's just science.
AB: Exactly.
BL: And, you know, thank God she's as brilliant as she is. You know, she
understands this stuff and can present it to us in a way that is easy to
understand. And it's such a shame what's happened to her in terms of the bully
online, the trolls, as it were, that just won't get past their prejudice to
listen to the science.
LB: Right, it's true.
AB: Yeah, but the fact that, you know, when she was first appointed, I thought,
"Oh my gosh, you know, a trans woman."
BL: Yeah, it was a brilliant appointment on the part of the governor.
LB: Yes, it was very, very smart. And, you know, how terrific that there was
someone with the kind of credentials that she had and the kind of extraordinary
presence and calm. I mean, this is the person who, for the most part, is not
really bothered by this crap that she has to endure. The worst thing about it is
not that it's happening to her, it's that for the transgender population and for
our particular transgender young people who are seeing it happen to her. And it
scares them because they think, "If this could happen to her, then it could
happen to me."
And I think I've said to our other employees -- we have now, 14 employees at the
center, and I've said, "One of the things we have to emphasize is that heroes
have to take crap. They always do. You know, people who are major civil rights
leaders, they don't just coast through. They always have crap and one of the
reasons we admire them is because they can put up with -- if it was easy,
everybody would do it, you know? We wouldn't get to admire those people.
BL: Well, the other thing I'd like to say about Doctor Levine is what a great
role model she's been for our daughter, Ashley.
LB: Oh, great.
BL: You know, Ashley went -- her story has evolved over the last decade or so
and I know that she has viewed Doctor Levine as her role model. And a really
good one. And I know Ashley has greatly benefited from that a lot.
LB: Well, that's good. That's great to hear. (Inaudible).
AB: Even when you talk about heroes, you know, at one point, the street
preachers would focus on us, you know, and I was a faithless Jew and Blaise was
Professor Yuck and Reverend Reprobate and, you know, they would focus on us and
leave everybody else alone. And so, I think that might be part of the hero's
role is to take some of that crap.
BL: Be the lightning rod.
LB: That's a good point.
AB: I hate to see it happen to Rachel, though, because of what you said. With
other, trans kids being afraid. Ashley has gone through a lot of trauma recently
because of the trans people who were murdered. You know, I think there was three
within a two-week period.
LB: Yeah, it was horrible.
AB: And that was just as traumatic for her as well. So, trans kids, the whole
thing with dead naming is one of the reasons why we ended up adopting her, was
because she was afraid that she would be buried under a marker that had her dead
name on it. So, you know, it was one of the reasons, but it's one thing that
when they dead name somebody, that just is so frustrating. Yeah.
LB: Yeah, I take a lot of time trying to explain that to people when I'm
training, that this is just one of the worst things you can do. And in fact,
I've had young trans people say that their names are even more important than
the pronouns, it's really the name is what I've had several people say. So,
what's your biggest concern about the pandemic?
BL: Well, mine generally is how many idiots there are out there who don't take
this seriously and are going to keep it going as a consequence. And that it's
already -- you know, if they had just paid attention in the early month, the
first month when this was coming out and done the right thing then, we'd be done
with it by now and schools could open this fall safely. And instead, we're
taking a crapshoot with our kids' lives. You know, I understand the economics of
having the schools closed and yet, the economics don't mean a damn thing to me
if what we're trading is people's lives. And so, the fact that this is going to
continue for probably at least another six months, if not a year, because these
people would not pay attention and would not listen to the experts, would
completely denigrate the science, is just really angering. And just drives me crazy.
AB: Yeah, and I think that's one thing that maybe because of the work we did
with Silent Witness Peacekeepers and the amount of research we put into the idea
of, you know, civil liberties and freedom of speech and all that sort of thing,
that it's not what people think it is. Yes, we have civil rights, but we also
have civic responsibility. And people are completely ignoring that aspect of it.
Like you said, in the New York Times, there was a great article on the cult of selfishness.
LB: Right, I saw that, yeah.
AB: And how people are just all about themselves. They're narcissistic that, you
know, they feel that wearing a mask is their right or not wearing a mask.
BL: That's oppression for Pete's sake!
AB: Yeah, the oppression is just --
BL: You know, it makes no sense. And it disturbs me the number of people who are
like that.
LB: Yeah, that's true.
AB: Yeah, the number of people I've taken off my Facebook list.
LB: I know, it's just very depressing, isn't it?
BL: Yeah.
AB: Yeah.
LB: It's so hard.
AB: I've dropped friends who had idiots commenting on their Facebook posts
because I don't want to see it on Facebook right now. It's just more than I can
stand watching that. But I think also for me and bringing this back to the LGBT
community, the fact that, for instance, all the Pride Festivals have been
cancelled or postponed, you know, I think back to the early days. I think it
was, like, 2006, there was some problems at Harrisburg Pride, the organization
was falling apart. And one of the things Blaise said was, "We have to make sure
the Pride Festival keeps going, because if we don't, the street preachers are
going to take credit for it."
LB: (laughs)
AB: And it was --
BL: So, we ended up getting involved in the organization as well.
AB: Yeah, I became vice president.
LB: Oh my gosh.
AB: And that's what I'm thinking this summer, that the protestors and the street
preachers are going to claim victory, that it's God's wrath that all these Pride
Festivals had to be cancelled. And it's not true and that upsets me, and I know
how important it is for the community to be at a Pride Festival. You know, all
these many years that we've gone to a Pride Festival and, you know, there are
people who go to every Pride Festival, every weekend. I mean, they just travel
around the country going to Pride Festivals and it's so important. A safe place
for them to be and they are missing out this year. I can't wait for the virtual
one from you guys.
LB: Yeah, it's going to be on TV even, too. So, we don't have to worry about --
and frankly, it's already made, or it's put together for the most part. We're
adding things into it. I'm not involved with that. But, you know, I've done my
part of it. But we don't have to worry about the kind of depressing tech issues
that could happen. Which is devastating in, I think, a lot of ways. And of
course, I'm not that great at pop culture, because I'm kind of isolated, but
there are actually people I know that are going to be at the -- you know, that
are older people. Suzanne Westenhoefer, great, you know, we couldn't afford to
have her otherwise. Holly Near is going to be at our thing.
AB: I know.
LB: But then all of our kids, they have no idea who either of these people are.
But then they have this whole set of people that they know and RuPaul people and
stuff. And it really is quite an exciting thing. It was also about twenty-five
percent of our budget that we make from that. Well, we're doing okay with it.
AB: Okay. So, let's put down donations to the Bradbury/Sullivan Center...
LB: Oh, no, it's that and the gala and we had to postpone the gala to the
spring. We hope that we can have it then. But, yeah, that was a big thing. And,
you know, we employ 14 people. So, it's scary for Adrian to have all these
wonderful people that have jobs and then think, "Okay. If you screw this up,
Adrian, I can't eat." And that doesn't apply as much to me because I'm pretty
much part-time. Well, I am part-time and, you know, I don't make that much
money. But it's a lot of pressure, and plus, he's doing a lot of national stuff.
You know, we've been on the lawsuits against Trump and stuff like that, for
trans health and it's been a big deal. So, you're staying in or are you going to
the grocery store or are you just ordering stuff or what's the deal?
AB: We started off just ordering stuff online and then, you know, we started
going to the six a.m. senior hour.
LB: I understand that, yes.
AB: Around here, it's been fairly good, in terms of the stores we go to, people
are wearing masks, they have the plastic up in front of everybody. And so, that
helps with the confidence level.
BL: We've been slowly, you know, going out, just a little bit more. We're not
eating out; we don't go to bars anyway and that sort of thing. But grocery store
and an occasional short trip of some sort to, you know, our local hobby store so
that we can keep busy.
LB: I know what you mean, yeah.
BL: But we really have limited our excursions, severely.
LB: Yeah, that's what you have to do. And so, what are your hobbies?
AB: Blaise picked up --
BL: I've been doing woodworking.
LB: You are? Because, you know, I'm a bigtime woodworker.
BL: What's that?
LB: I taught woodworking and furniture design in college?
BL: Oh, did you really?
LB: Yeah, I have a degree and a master's degree in woodworking.
BL: Oh my gosh, well, now we know who to call.
LB: I got every tool.
BL: I'm just doing real amateur stuff. I'm hand carving wands and, like, wizard staffs.
LB: Sure, I understand.
BL: I've started trying to do figural carvings, but I'm such a novice at it,
they're not very good. So, it's going to take a lot of practice. Of course, I
got a lot of time now. So, that was the idea, you know, that this would be
something to fill some time.
AB: Yeah, and I knit. And so, I've been knitting up a storm in my spare time.
And I've still actually -- I'm a Healing Touch Certified Practitioner. And I've
still been able to see my clients virtually and doing distance healing. I have
apprentices who are still -- you know, we just do Zoom. And I've still been able
to do some of that, which was only part-time to begin with. But it seems to be
keeping busy. There are many days where it's like I realize I've just spent two
hours scrolling through Facebook.
LB: I know, it's hard to not do it. And you keep wanting to find something good.
You want to find something that's --
BL: Yeah, if only.
LB: It's so hard.
AB: So, we've started watching movies, our old favorites, you know? And the
tragic thing is, as we're watching them, there's usually something that is
poignant in a way that it hadn't been before. Like, we were watching O Brother,
Where Art Thou? And I had forgotten about the scene with the Ku Klux Klan. You
know, so, this is, like, post-Black Lives Matter, you know?
LB: Yeah.
AB: And it's like, "Oh."
LB: No kidding, yeah.
AB: Or we were watching The Princess Bride and Fezzik asks the Man in Black,
"Why do you wear a mask?" "Well, I find it rather comfortable, I think we'll all
be wearing them some day."
LB: Oh, geez. Oh, man.
AB: Okay, there's a quote.
LB: No kidding.
AB: So, there's something, you know -- really re-watch Xena, the whole scene and
it was like, "Oh my gosh." You know, fighting warlords and it was like, "Yeah,
that's what I feel like so often."
LB: I know, yeah.
AB: What would Xena do?
LB: Yeah, we like --
AB: Get her chakram and cut their head off, you know?
LB: No kidding. We like to watch British mysteries. So, we watch all the BBC stuff.
BL: Yeah, we're into that.
AB: That's next.
LB: But here's the problem with that, and I have maintained that this is the
case, there's one or two tiny exceptions, but if there's a queer character,
they're going to die. They're going to be the person that gets killed or they're
going to be the murderer. Almost always. And, you know, there's, like, one
episode of Father Brown where that doesn't happen. I mean, I'm talking, we've
seen everything for, you know, way back to the old -- it absolutely happens.
AB: Well, and that was part of my class. Yeah, I mean, we talked about that in
part of my class about how that was always the case, up until recently and even
now, it's mostly lesbians getting killed off in shows. And, yeah, so, that part
is also -- it's like the ensign fodder on Star Trek, you know?
LB: Yeah, right. Ensign fodder, that's great. Now, we were watching Death in
Paradise, which is actually a fun show to watch, and it's got a lot of people of
color, and you know, it's beautiful and everybody seems pretty happy and it's
all about Caribbean Islands and stuff. And it's pretty light-duty. It's not
really -- there's not a lot of graphic violence in it. But we were watching it
and then there was a character and I thought, "Well, he's gay, so, he's going to
be the killer." Because the person was already dead. And then the main character
comes in, and he's the detective and he says the person's name and he says, "Is
not the killer." And it's that guy and he's the gay guy. They said he's not the
killer and then he says, "But you're not really him and you are the killer." And
I'm like, "Oh, the gay guy's the killer." I mean, I had hope and then it was
gone. It was just gone.
There is a few shows that have -- there is one that has -- the Ms. Fisher series
has a lesbian character in it through the whole time and it's supposed to be at
the time of World War I, so, it's interesting. But her girlfriend gets murdered
and she's accused of being the killer. Often that's the other thing is that
they're accused of being the killer. Once in a while they get off, but it's
horrible. It's just horrible. It always happens. And we still watch them because
we love that genre. But it's very tough. And you run out of stuff. Particularly
if you binge it. You watch a whole bunch of this stuff. Star Trek: Voyager, we
do like that. So, let's see, what else can I ask you here? We said that, we said that.
So, you're staying in. Okay. I just want to say that I say this is my -- I've
interviewed twenty-four people and every single one has said that their biggest
annoyance and biggest anger is that people aren't wearing masks and they're not
taking this seriously. Everyone has said that. So, universally, among the
progressive people of the world, we all are just pissed off. Like, we had to go
to a doctor's appointment and every person we passed on the street -- because we
hardly ever go out, we've only been out a couple of times. I realized that
person's wearing a mask, that person's not wearing one, that's all she said
about every single person. It's our thing. But what other kinds of frustrations
or fears -- but frustrations I think would be what you would say. And there's
been some small frustrations, I think, too.
BL: Yeah, I don't feel as active. And I know I could go out for a walk and of
course the heat's been keeping us in lately. And I really should go out for a
walk and I think what's keeping me from doing it is that first fear is that,
"Who am I going to run into?"
LB: It's true.
BL: And, you know, am I actually going to be safe doing it? And intellectually,
I know I am. But mentally, you know, I've gotten to the point now, where I'm
afraid of people. You know, it's not logical. It's purely an emotional response,
but you know, I've become very much a homebody. And that does worry me a little
bit because my mother was agoraphobic and from the time she was younger than me,
she rarely went out of the house. And I don't want to be that. You know, I don't
want to fall into that trap, because it's important for our health that that
doesn't happen, and we get out and do things. And so, I know I'm not moving
enough. I hope it doesn't become such a habit because of this, that it becomes a
lifelong habit from here on out. But frankly, I'm nervous of going out.
LB: Me too.
AB: Yeah, and I think I mentioned earlier about Ashley having COVID.
LB: Yeah, so, let's talk about that.
AB: And the frustration especially that she's feeling. Because she has
expectations of the --
BL: Health providers.
AB: -- health providers, that they are not meeting. And then she was originally
sent to the E.R. because she's on estrogen because she's transgender and the
doctor was as concerned about COVID as she was about a blood clot in her lungs,
pulmonary embolism. And when they decided it was COVID based on -- you know,
they ruled out the blood clots and they decided it was COVID, she was sent home
because it wasn't that severe. And it took a couple of weeks for her to actually
start feeling better, but now she's starting to show signs of having had a
stroke and cannot get adequate help, cannot get her doctor to listen to her, to
understand what she's going through. And I think there's a frustration that, you
know, the healthcare system is so overwhelmed that how do they give
individualized attention, when they're suddenly confronted with so many cases.
And they don't know what to do about it. And you have somebody who has other conditions.
They talk about other things like, "Okay, if you have high blood pressure and
diabetes or some kind of lung compromised or all these other kinds of things."
But who's looking at transgender people with COVID and what are their unique,
you know, situations. And so, that's one of my biggest frustrations is that
we've been able to stay healthy. I have gone into a couple of doctor's
appointments. They were extremely cautious. They were specialists, you know? So,
they weren't overwhelmed. They weren't part of the frontline. We cancelled
dentist appointments because that's probably where Ashley got it. Her
endodontist walked into the room without a mask on and so, that's probably where
she got it. So, we did end up cancelling our dentist appointments. But we're
okay there. That wasn't an emergency. But the frustration with the medical
system, I think that's why I go to Doctor Levine, because I can trust her. I
know what's going on. You know, too bad she can't be my doctor.
LB: No kidding, yeah.
AB: My conviction is, are we going to be able to trust medical professionals
going forward? You know, assuming that they don't all die from COVID. That's
kind of huge. Especially since we're transitioning to Medicare and that sort of thing.
LB: No kidding. Yeah, we went to the doctor yesterday and it was the skin
doctor. So, it was a specialist kind of situation. We both went because we both
had stuff. We had to go, and we went into the waiting room and all the chairs
were just piled up in the corner. There were no chairs and it was an odd look,
you know? It was a thing that, you know, if we get past this, we'll never see
that again. It was so bizarre. And the people were great, and we felt really
safe, because they know how to clean things, you know? They're good at that. But
it is true that Trish just had to go to the dentist, but the dentist was
literally with a mask and a plastic thing and, you know, she looked like she
could have wrapped her whole body with -- and Trish said, "You will not be
scared if you have to go to the dentist.
I've never seen anything so remote control as the people." So, yeah, that's the
thing, because when you see somebody without a mask, it makes you agoraphobic. I
can understand that. I have that feeling too. Like Adrian said, "Well, maybe we
can open in September." And all I was thinking was, "I'm not going. I'm not
going." I said, "I'm not going unless you can guarantee me that I'm not going to
get it. I'm not doing it." And I do trainings to hundreds of people. And they
were asking me to do one in September and I said, "Only if you can guarantee
that a high-risk person could not be in any risk at all." Well, they can't do
that. So, you know, I said, "I'll do a Zoom." It's actually easier to do these
interviews. The only thing that's weird about it, and you may or may not have
done this, that you have no idea whether there's anyone out there. I did a
training of, like, two hundred people and I said, "Well, I hope -- and I got
done at the end of 90 minutes and I said, "I hope it's actually still working
and the power just hasn't gone off and I'm just talking to myself." But, you
know, anyway.
BL: I had to do the second half of the last semester online. And it was tricky.
And I know the students found it difficult. You know, this was not a format that
most of them wanted and many of them found challenging. And particularly
students with any kind of issues in terms of how they learn, et cetera. It's
extremely challenging. And boy, I'm so glad I got to retire at the end of the
semester, but I feel terrible for my colleagues who I know are so frustrated
about, you know, what they are being forced to do. And, I know that my
colleagues in your field, for instance, how in the world do you teach
woodworking if you can't be in a woodworking lab?
LB: Yeah, it can't be done.
BL: I know they're just trying their damnedest to figure out how to make it a
worthwhile learning experience and they're just really frustrated. You know, my
field, computer science, yeah, we can get away with it, for the most part. There
are some things that I found really hard to present because it's such a
non-dynamic medium. And in terms of the tools we have available right now. Now,
I know that's going to change. You know, next year, there is going to be a lot
of development for new products that will make teaching online easier and
they're going to be good. So, that the next time, it won't be so awful. But boy,
it has forever changed the face of education. Particularly at the university
level -- college and university level. And this is going to have a huge impact
on how that whole field works from now on.
LB: It's pretty interesting, I've talked to a number of college professors, I
think three so far, in this group, and they're all really different. Because
some of them were already doing distanced learning classes and they were pretty
set up for it and one of them I'm about to interview on Thursday, right from the
minute it happened had to rewrite every single thing she did. Everything she did
was discussion classes and there was all this presentation by the students and
everything and she said, "I don't know how to do this. I don't even know how to
use the tools." So, I know she pulled it off, but she's at East Stroudsburg. And
she's going to be moving right into the semester right away and it's very hard.
So, yeah, what a tricky thing to do. And then you didn't even have to walk at
the graduation. You just waved.
BL: Yeah, yeah.
AB: Yeah, well, Blaise is a computer scientist. So, you know, already, he's
technologically savvy, but, you know --
BL: That doesn't mean it was easy.
LB: No kidding.
AB: So, I feel bad for people who don't have a background in computer science.
LB: Sure, well, anybody who has to rewrite a class in the middle of the class --
people don't understand how hard it is to get these things in place. I taught
woodworking at State University of New York for the first part of my career and
a different life. And it couldn't be done. You would have just shut it down.
There's no way that you could -- it's like you can't take this stuff home to do
as homework either. So, now, ceramics people gave people clay and told them to
take it home and that happened at Cedar Crest apparently, that they just said,
"Here's a whole bunch of clay, make stuff." What a strange thing to do, really,
because that doesn't really work. You know, you can't really do it that way. So,
it's sort of a fake thing. So, that's a terrible story about Ashley and had you
known other people that have had it or have been --
AB: Friends. The daughter of one of our friends was in New York. She was a
chaplain and she came down with COVID and she was really sick for about a month.
BL: But recovered, she totally recovered.
AB: Seems to be recovered and another friend who had moved to New York also
recovered. She was really sick for about two months, was not hospitalized, but
just took a very long time to recover. But also, you know, so, we haven't really
known anybody personally who died from it. One of his daughters works in a
nursing facility in Baltimore -- outside of Baltimore and she's been really
lucky. One employee tested positive, but showed no symptoms. And nobody in their
facility had COVID, at least as of right now. So, that was, you know, pretty
lucky. And my nephew works in Country Meadows with people in the dementia unit.
LB: Oh, golly.
AB: He said, you know, as much as he complains about having to wear a mask and
shield and all the protective gear, he said, "We still don't have a case."
LB: Wow.
AB: So, we've been probably among the lucky ones in regard to that.
LB: There's a facility in Allentown -- outside of Allentown. It's something
Gardens, I think. And Steve Ziminsky was telling me that his former roommate is
there now, and he has a pretty serious heart condition, so he can't do very
much. Not very old, he's in his 60s. And they had one hundred people who tested positive.
BL: Oh my.
LB: And it's not a very big facility, including him. Including this guy. And I
don't know how many deaths they had. I don't think they were telling. But one
hundred people and a lot of them were a significant numbers of care workers too.
So, that's a lot of stuff. So --
BL: That's a very high-density situation.
AB: Right.
LB: Yeah, and --
BL: You know, once it gets introduced, it's going to spread like crazy.
LB: Sure. Well, I have a friend who is a pediatrician and she actually had it
and was very, very sick, but she said that, you know, the parents have said,
"Well, do you think it's okay for my kid to go to daycare?" And she said, "Has
your kid ever gone to daycare and not gotten sick from something that -- you
know, they're going to get it. They're going to get it." And so, I just read an
article in the New York Times today that said -- and I don't know if I believe
this, but that younger kids don't seem to be as likely to get it. Particularly
children under five. And it's even possibly because when they cough and sneeze,
when they're around other five-year-olds, they don't spew out as much as we do
when we sneeze, as big as adults do. It seems unrealistic to me. It seems like
an unrealistic thing. There's some other factors that have to do with receptors
in little children's bodies that aren't as big, I guess, and they're not as
likely to latch onto viruses. But it's not like kids don't get the flu. So, I
don't know what that's about. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Go ahead.
AB: And looking at the data, you know, because they keep pointing to data from
Germany and, I don't know, Sweden and Israel and, you know, it's like, "Oh, they
had no problem." They also didn't have the same number of cases that we have.
Israel did have problems opening with COVID and the kids. And I think it's --
yeah, they may not be getting COVID, but whether or not they spread it, whether
they can carry it home is another thing that we don't know.
LB: Right, we don't know. That's really the thing.
AB: You know, and if somebody lives in Montana, one hundred miles away from the
nearest case of COVID, have at it. Open your school and go for it. In an area
where, you know, you haven't flattened the curve yet or it's still kind of --
you know, I think it's a big risk. My daughter's school district has decided to
start with online, virtual classrooms. And then reevaluate it every month.
LB: That's wise.
AB: His son's youngest is going to be going to school, but he has learning
disabilities. And those are the kids they're bringing back and they're going to --
BL: In a hybrid.
AB: In a hybrid system. I think two days a week, appropriately distanced and all
that kind of stuff, to see how they do. Because they're the ones who are really
suffering from the virtual classroom. So, yeah, I don't know, it's kind of --
you know, do I want to risk my grandkids for an experiment?
LB: No kidding. Yeah, you know, I was talking to Steve Ziminksy, he was a school
-- he was a music teacher in Allentown School District for many, many years. And
he was telling me about things that I hadn't thought of and one of them is that
a lot of Allentown schools are not air conditioned. So, what they do is, if it's
really hot, they take the kids that are in the hottest rooms and they put them
all down in one big, air-conditioned room, like the auditorium. Well, that's not
an option. And he said, "How are they going to do that? What are they going to
do when it's ninety degrees on September, you know, fifteenth?" Well, tough luck
kids. Some of you get to be in air conditioning.
AB: That could have been factored into my daughter's school situation because
they don't have air conditioning in their elementary schools. That could have
been a factor in their decision not to bring the kids back. But air conditioning
is still --
LB: Yeah, if you don't have filters.
AB: If the air conditioning works, that could spread it through the whole school.
LB: Sure, yeah. It's a Legionnaires' kind of thing. It could be. So, do you want
to say anything about Black Lives Matter? Because I'm asking everybody about
that. You know, we can't talk about COVID without talking about that and without
talking about politics because it's the deal.
BL: It is one of the frustrations that we can't be out on the street with them.
LB: No kidding, no kidding.
BL: I mean, it's driving me nuts that I can't go downtown and help. Alanna and I
and I'm sure you as well, since we were teenagers have been fighting for equal
rights. It's frustrating, first of all, that we still have to do it. But, you
know, after fifty years. But still, that's our first instinct is to go out and,
you know, hold signs ourselves and protest. You know, there's no question in my
mind that this can be a watershed moment. Whether it's going to be a positive
one or a negative one is yet to be seen. I think the current administration is
doing everything they can possibly do to make this as bad as it can possibly
get. They are taking the exact wrong approach and clearly making things worse,
rather than any attempt to make them better. You know, it is so easy to
demonstrate that black folks and others of color are so oppressed, and they have
been for four hundred years. And while the oppression is somewhat subtler these
days, it's still there. And we have got to get past that, or we will never reach
the potential that this country could reach.
AB: You know, I actually lived in North Carolina when I was younger, and it was
a really difficult time. My father was invited to join the Ku Klux Klan. And
they apparently didn't realize he was Jewish. We had black maids and watching
that and participating in that oppression. You know, the signs that said,
"Colored only," or "Whites only." You know, growing up with that was painful.
And then, you know, coming back to the north -- because we were damn Yankees
down there, but then coming back to the north and the race riots in the high
school where I was at, you know, in the seventies. And then, you know, fast
forward to -- it was about the same time we started the Freedom to Marry work.
We also got involved in anti-racism work. And so, that was around 2004. I know
the people we were doing it with just didn't understand the anti-racism. "I'm
not racist" kind of thing. And I had worked and collectively owned and operated
an anti-profit community restaurant, a Kosher restaurant, in the seventies. And
it was like, that went off for me. We were anti-profit. We weren't non-profit.
We were against the machinery that made money on food. You know, that made such
outrageous profits on food. And so, for me, suddenly that made sense to me. And
it's like, to be anti-racist means you are against the system. And it took me
even longer to figure out what those systems were. And as an individual, they
are so hard to deconstruct.
You know, there's nothing I can do as an individual about the property taxes
that cause people of color to be isolated in poor school districts. And so,
understanding that and explaining that to people -- and that's what actually has
caused the civil war in our own family is that some of them -- "But I'm not
racist." It's like, "That's not the point." And trying to explain that to people
who don't want to hear it, you know? "Well, how can you tell me that I've
benefited from white privilege? I have no money, you know, I have all these
problems. How can you say I benefited from white privilege?" "Well, let me walk
you through some of the exercises." Because we have done a lot of work and it's
so distressing to be fifty years from Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Junior
and say, "Oh my gosh, you know, we are no farther, except that so many people
are paying attention now."
LB: It's true.
AB: Almost every company that I do online business with has sent me emails,
outlining specifically what they are doing to educate their employees. They're
donating to the right organizations, they are setting up, you know --
BL: Well, they're strengthening their policies.
AB: Yeah, but they're also setting up opportunities for young people of color,
so that they can, you know, be mentored and get skills and things like that. So,
beyond the protests, I feel like there is hope that this time, we're going to
make it work. And the continuing protests hopefully will hold people's feet to
the fire. So, it's --
BL: It's all we can hope for.
AB: Yeah, we can't let our guard down.
LB: No, that's for sure.
BL: But it's real frustrating that we can't be more actively involved.
LB: No kidding. And we had this thing in Allentown, I don't know if you know
that whole thing that happened in Allentown where the person was arrested for
being sick and then kneeling on his head. And, you know, it happened five blocks
from this window that I'm looking at and I couldn't go to it. And Adrian was
there. He actually was there at midnight and he texted me and he said, "This is
happening." And I know he did that because he wanted to know if I wanted to come over.
I mean, I was just down the street and I said to Trish -- and then they had
another protest the next night. And I said, "I think we should go to this." And
the look on her face, because she's very, very at risk. And she's worried about
me. And I had very severe lung issues when I was a teenager, so, I don't know,
you know, whether that would affect me or not. I've been breathing wood dust my
entire life too. So, I don't know, but she's really, really at risk and she has
lupus and a lung disease and all sorts of stuff. So, I really deliberated and
then I looked at the pictures. I could see the thing that was happening. It was
live. And I could see these kids and they were chanting and yelling without
masks on. Not a lot of them, but a couple of them. And I thought, "I can't do
it. I can't do it."
BL: You know, it's --
LB: All I have to do is be right next to somebody who's shouting out and I
understand that passion. I understand why they want to chant and yell and stuff
like that. But --
BL: Yeah, really want to be there. It's tearing us apart that we can't participate.
LB: I understand it. I understand. Wow, it's very tough. And --
AB: Well, the other thing too is the intellectual level. While everybody in the
country is up in arms about Black Lives Matter, the whole idea of
intersectionality comes into play. Because while everybody's yelling about this,
Trump is taking away healthcare for LGBT people. You know, here's where the news
is focused, so, let's take away these rights from LGBT people and put more kids
in cages. And so, that whole divide and conquer thing.
BL: And misdirection. He's good at that.
AB: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I'm hopefully more than anything. That's where I have
hope is that we are going to actually start doing things. And if we can get a
lot of these old white men out of office, you know, and I hate to say -- I don't
want to limit it to Republicans, because I'm not sure the old, white Democrats
are doing much better. Their hearts are in the right place, but they don't have
the fire. But that whole notion of this patriarchal, you know, daddy thing. That
daddy knows best and he's punishing the kids and, you know, mom has to be
barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and, you know, that is -- we got to stop
that somehow. And, you know, I'm kind of on the fence with AOC. You know, her
recent preaching was just brilliant.
LB: It was brilliant. It was totally brilliant. And Trish was playing it and she
goes, "Sit down and listen to this." And I said, "Okay. That was brilliant." And
every single person that I know that listened to it said, "Okay. That was
brilliant." And, you know, even the criticism didn't make any sense, you know?
BL: Right.
AB: Right.
LB: Well, she shouldn't be talking out. And that's the biggest danger I think,
is when we have people that say, in sort of the guise of, "Well, you have to be
able to -- I mean, everybody needs to be calm and self-care and stuff like that,
but don't push self-care so far that you're not doing anything, you know? That
you're not speaking out and that you just accept this. That you accept things
and that things happen for a reason." Yeah, because there's racists. Well, we're
going to change it, you know? They happen for a reason that's stupid. So, let's
fix that reason. But it's very tough. I think it's very tough right now for
people like us too, because we're --
BL: It also seems like we're at a period of history where a lot of confluences
are coming together. And I do have a little bit of hope that, in fact, this is
going to bleed over into the election and beyond. And have enough momentum to
actually carry us forward, rather than backwards. I'm not entirely optimistic
about it, but I've got that sort of hidden hope that, you know, there's going to
be such a backlash from all of this nonsense, that we are in fact going to make
progress this time. But, you know, we've kind of felt that way before. You know,
when we got us out of Vietnam we thought, "Oh yeah, you know, we're going to
beat the, you know, industrial complex."
AB: The military industrial complex.
BL: The military industrial complex.
AB: We got Nixon impeached, yes.
LB: I know, it's like this.
BL: Yeah, and that we're going to start taking care of people. Well, didn't
quite happen, did it? So, you know, I'm cautiously optimistic in that respect. I
do have kind of good feelings about this next election that we are in fact going
to be able to make some massive changes. But boy, do we got to get out --
LB: Yeah, I tell you, the thing that is most positive for me was seeing that a
lot of the Black Lives Matters protests and the people who were protesting
within this, it's very energy-charged and a lot of them were young people. And
the young people vote is what brought us to Obama. And which did not bring us to
Hillary Clinton because there wasn't that college student vote. And right now,
college students are really pissed off. And they need to understand that it
doesn't have to be this way and even their college loan things and stuff and the
plans that -- it is true that the plans -- the Biden campaign has some very good
steps that are probably from Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, for paying off
student loans and stuff. Which these young people have to recognize is this has
to be done, and it's not even that much money. I mean, really, in the grand
scheme of things, it helps them to be able to have more disposable income, which
kind of takes care of taxes and stuff. And it ends up balancing it out. So, that --
BL: My two big agenda items are that and the universal healthcare.
LB: That's true.
BL: If we don't get universal healthcare passed, we are just never going to get
anywhere. I really think that the whole medical system is a disaster. You know,
it started when they started deregulating it and allowing it to make profit, et
cetera. And it's real easy to show all the other countries that have universal
healthcare, how much better their societies are. How much better protection
everybody has.
LB: And the direct relationship of COVID's proliferation, because people didn't
have healthcare and because they were sick, they couldn't take days off and you
know how that continued to happen. Yeah.
BL: Well, anyway, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we're going to have a big year.
LB: I hope so. I hope so as well.
BL: God help us if we don't.
LB: Yeah, all right. So, one more thing that I hope that -- this archive project
is really fascinating and we're having a wonderful time with Muhlenberg and
Lehigh University working on this too. So, they've done a bunch of older LGBT
people talking about all this stuff that happened. I often thought that all the
stuff we did to pass all our ordinances nobody would know about that. And I've
been talking about that a lot. And they transcribe it and it's really terrific
and it's all searchable and you can get it in all the papers that we say, like,
"Why are you doing this stuff?" And now, it's all in the archives and all
digitalized and, you know, all the Valley Gay Presses that I made, one of the
things that happened was, I was talking to Kristen Leipert, who I'm actually
working with now on these things that I'm doing, like last year. And I was
talking about the LGBT March on Washington in 1993. And I said, "Well, Trish and
I went together to that and we've been together for several years.
About six years by the time we went to that." And then I said, "We both were at
the 1987 march, but we weren't together there." And Kristen goes, "Yeah, I
know." And I said, "How do you know that?" And she said, "Because I read all the
papers as I digitalized them, and I read all the stories and I know everything
about your life. (laughter) Great, somebody does. So, she said that she knows
everything. And then she'll says things like, "I found this video of the first
Pride Festival. Who can you identify in the thing?" So, I'd watch the whole
two-and-a-half-hour thing and I said, "Well, there's me way in the back."
Because they only did the front.
They only videotaped the front and I named a lot of people that were there and
stuff. And it was very interesting to see, you know, I think all those people
look the same as they do now, even though it was, you know, twenty-seven years
ago and I'm the same. I still have those pants, you know, that kind of stuff.
(laughter) Which always happens to me. I actually said, like, "Is that me? Oh
yeah, I remember those pants." (laughter) But the whole thing has been very
terrific and one of the things I hope and one of the reasons for this is to
collect information from people who are talking about what's happening now, so
people in the future can look back at this and say, "These are real people and
how this was affecting them." And we don't have that for the flu epidemic of
1918, when my grandmother died. My grandmother died of the flu in 1918. So, what
do you want to say to people thirty years from now or forty years from now or
fifty years?
BL: I hope life is better.
LB: Just a soundbite. A soundbite.
AB: Yeah, you know, a young person called me about the Defund the Police
Movement and, you know, she had a questionnaire and we walked through the
questionnaire and I talked about how I've been doing this work for 50 years and
I really thought it would be solved by now. You know, when I was a teenager, I
thought this would all be a thing of the past and it's not. And I go back and
forth between anger and despair. And the one day I was talking to my grandson
and he wanted to know about history. And so, you know, we were talking about
history and he said, "Well, I'm really afraid the world's going to fall apart."
He said, "This anti-racism work," he said, "I need to get involved in that."
He's nine. "I need to get involved in that anti-racism work." He said, "I feel
bad that I can't save the world." And it was like, "Oh my gosh, that's how I
feel. And I said to him, "You know, I often feel like that, but what got me
through was the idea of think globally, act locally. Change your own little part
of the world." And, you know, I raised my kids to be, you know, anti-racist.
And, you know, my daughter married a black man and our son married a Vietnamese
refugee. We have a transgender daughter. And so, we've got this conglomeration
of culture and ethnicity in our own little family. And so, they don't care about
skin color and things like that. And we started Silent Witness Peacekeepers, you know?
LB: Right.
AB: And we created that in our own little part of the world, and we made such a
difference. And so, if everybody does that, if everybody does their part, then
maybe we will change the world. And that's what I told the young woman. I said,
"I don't want to make any assumptions. You sound like you're young." I said, "We
thought we were going to turn over this utopia to you guys and you still have to
do the work. And you know, we're here to help. We can't be out there anymore
marching, but we're more than willing to support you in the ways that we can."
And so, if somebody is watching this thirty years from now and the world is a
much better place, yay.
BL: Yay.
AB: If not, you know what? Ask --
BL: Sorry about that.
AB: Yeah, because we're more than happy to, you know, listen when they complain
and give them advice if they need it and do whatever we need to do.
BL: Yeah, obviously, we've always felt it's incumbent on all of us to take
positive steps toward a better future. And not just complain. But, you know,
take an active role, as much as you can. You know, not everybody has to be out
there on the street. But as much as you possibly can to support that movement
forward. I hope to God it's better thirty years from now. And if it isn't, we're
sorry. We're doing everything that we can think of to do. I'd like to think that
the last three years or so in particular, have been an aberration that doesn't
get repeated. Unfortunately, I also know from history and looking back thirty
years in the past, what they did then that has continuing repercussions now, in
a negative way. And I hope that the steps we're taking now lead to more positive
than negative. And by the time thirty years from now -- you know, universal
healthcare in particular, I think, if that hasn't become a reality, I just don't
have any hope for the country at all. If they haven't done more to make
reparations for the centuries of oppression of people of color, I don't have any
hope for this country.
AB: Or the indigenous people.
BL: Yes, them as well. As a country, we have to own what it cost other people to
make it what so many people think of as the greatest country in the world. Yeah,
we're not the greatest in many, many ways.
AB: No, right now we're the third world banana republic.
LB: No kidding.
BL: I think the ideals of the country are wonderful, you know, the phrase that
all men are created equal is probably one of the greatest phrases ever written.
And yet, even at the time it was written, they didn't mean it.
LB: It wasn't true, yeah.
BL: We have to mean it. And if another thirty years goes by and we haven't made
great strides in meaning it in this country, then I'd say the experiment's a
failure. But I'm hoping that's not going to be the case. Obviously, I'm trying
to do whatever I can. And we all are, in this family for sure, trying to do what
we can to live up to those ideals. And to make sure that nobody feels like
they're on the outside.
AB: And that's assuming we haven't fried the earth.
LB: And then there's that.
BL: Yeah.
AB: Yeah, I remember being part of the first Earth Day.
LB: Me too.
AB: I was in high school. We formed the Clean Earth Association and we got
permission to have an assembly. And, you know, we were out there educating in
1970. You know, and I started habits back then. Like turning off the water when
I brushed my teeth. And every time I do that, I think I've been doing this since 1970.
LB: Well, we're doing what we can do. We've got a history of doing what we can
do. And we do have to recognize that, you know, if you look back to the 1950s,
it's pretty much a sucky time. You know, the McCarthy Era and rampant Jim Crow
and, you know, pre-Martin Luther King. And the beginnings of the Vietnam War and
witch hunts and terrible government. And certainly, the incarceration of LGBT people.
BL: Yeah, one of the things I've always said to Alanna is, particularly when we
were working on the issue of same-sex marriage, was I'd like to keep Susan B.
Anthony in mind. She worked her entire adult life, into her nineties, trying to
get them the vote for women and it didn't happen in her lifetime. But it did happen.
LB: Yeah, it's true.
BL: And, you know, what's to say, you know -- I can't even think of the saying
that I want to project at this point. But, you know, just because it's not going
to be effective in our lifetime, doesn't mean we are free from the
responsibility of trying to make it happen in our lifetime.
LB: That's true.
BL: And that's something that I've always lived by, that I've tried to pass on
to my children and obviously we're trying to pass it on to our grandkids.
AB: Yeah, the ethics of the fathers. You may not finish the work in your
lifetime, but neither are you free to desist from it.
BL: I knew she'd know the quote.
LB: Good for you. Well, that's a terrific note to end on. Thank you so much for
saying that. Thank you so much for talking to me. You've been very inspirational.
BL: Thanks for asking us in.
AB: Yeah, it's amazing.
BL: We're very honored.
AB: Yes, very honored and it's wonderful seeing you again.
LB: It's great to see you too. I will give Trish a hug. I'm going to turn off
the recorder now. Oh, whoops. Wait, oh no.
BL: Don't tell me you didn't record it.
LB: So, I just did this entire recording with forgetting to do the video of
this. But I did do the audio. Thank goodness. I missed Blaise Liffick and the
wonderful Alanna Berger. Both of them from Silent Witness talking about
brilliant things. We have the entire audio recording. They will make the
transcript from this. So, there will be a written transcript from this as well.
Oh, does this suck big. I'm very, very sorry. Maybe I'll come back to you,
because everything you said was brilliant. Maybe when you go, you'll go, "Oh, I
forgot to say this thing." (laughter)
BL: Anytime, Liz.
LB: Oh, no, not anytime. This is so tough for you to do this. But you did a
wonderful job and I really, really appreciate it. I can't believe I didn't do
that. I even looked at the thing and said, "Is the thing on?" But the red light
wasn't on. What a fool. Well, I've only done that -- this is the first time I've
done that in all of these. But I did get the audio. But luckily, I said, "Oh, I
don't have the audio on. Let me turn it on." So, that was good. I might have to
come back and do you again. Maybe next week.
BL: We could sit and read the transcript, how's that?
LB: You could, maybe. Maybe do that. (laughter) No, that would be wrong. That
wouldn't be good. Well, think about -- I think that the things that you said
were brilliant and I did get all of the audio of it. And I'm so terribly sorry
that I messed this up.
BL: Oh, it's fine.
LB: I can't believe it.
AB: And you are recording now, right?
LB: Yes, I'm recording both of the things now. So, say that thing that you said
at the end of the statement that you said about --
AB: Oh, from the Pirke Avot the ethics of our fathers. You may not complete the
work in your lifetime, but neither are you free to desist from it.
LB: Well, that was brilliant. That was the gist of the entire interview, which
is in the audio. Thank God I got the audio. I'm sweating because I've messed
this up. So, anyways, well, I do have the audio, thank God. So, I do have the
transcript for that, and I think that will work, because people will look at it
and stuff. Thank you. And I actually think that we have a -- and I'm going to
encourage them to do this, to be sure that you're on this. This is an ongoing
grant through Lehigh University that they have been doing these oral histories.
And they've done a number of people. It takes them a lot longer to do these
things than it takes me to do it. They have a team. But they've done, I think,
ten people and they're doing me now. And I said, "You can't do it all in ninety
minutes, because I have a lot of things to say and I have another interview next
Monday. But I think that they should talk to you particularly about the stuff
you've done for Silent Witness and your lives too, because you've had such a
significant life and I'm going to make them do this, since I screwed this up.
So, they're going to get in touch with you in the next round of grant stuff. And
I'll force Mary Foltz to do this. She's a wonderful interviewer. Much better
than I, because I can't shut up and she'll let you actually talk. And I think
that your life experience has been so significant and I think that's a very,
very important thing for us to be able to include into the oral history, because
your involvement with the LGBT community has been extraordinarily significant.
Our Pride Festival and the -- and now, we're running it through the center. It's
been twenty-seven festivals and the circumstances of the anti-LGBT and the
anti-preachers that would come were getting worse and worse. To the point where
it was one time we had a guy that set up next to our booth, while we were trying
to get to sign and he just screamed through a megaphone the entire time of the
entire festival. And it was impossible to actually engage people because of
that. And that wouldn't have gone away. That was before when you started to do something.
AB: Yeah, and that was something that -- you know, we did a lot of research on
-- and we worked with the Harrisburg Police. The Harrisburg Police were great
back then, as were Parks and Rec. Through so many of the lawsuits, they had
great advice for us. And we also worked with Steve Glassman. We studied Supreme
Court cases on freedom of speech. We followed, you know, who the street
preachers were. And, you know, looked at their lawsuits. And so, we actually did
a lot of work to get where we were. You know, for instance, we would take these
packets of information with us and show them to the police beforehand, because
we'd always meet with the police. And, you know, well, they're not allowed to
interfere with this, because that was a Supreme Court case decision. And so, the
police went, "Oh, really?" You know, so, those were the kinds of things that,
you know, we were able to do. We were more than just a pretty umbrella.
LB: Oh, no, I was there. I remember it and I remember a couple of Freedom to
Marry things that were particularly hard when you weren't there or when you
weren't there. Not Freedom -- not just Silent Witness, but you particularly
weren't there. And sometimes the other Silent Witness people didn't quite know
how to convince the police that the preacher with the megaphone standing behind
us, doing the presentation, was not really supposed to be doing that. And how
they were breaking the rules.
BL: We have a particular knowledge set that is hard to pass on.
LB: It's really important to be able to have that and to have the presence to
convince people, you know, you're going to get in trouble if you do it the wrong way.
AB: Yeah, but Doctor Blaise Liffick was able to get through to the police in
ways that a lot of other people can't.
LB: Yeah, thank you for doing that.
AB: So, his thirty-nine years of teaching at the college level really came in handy.
LB: Okay. Well, I'm going to stop this now, for real.
AB: Okay.
LB: And stop that, for heaven sakes. And I just wanted to say I'm going to stop
the recording now.
END OF AUDIO FILE
00:01:00
