00:00:00NAN KOZUL - PART 2
LIZ BRADBURY: So I have to say, with this Bradbury-Sullivan LGBTQ Community
Center and the Trexler Library at Muhlenberg College will collaborate on this
"40 Years of Public Health Experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community:
Collecting and Curating Local LGBT Health Experiences from HIV/AIDS to
COVID-19." My name is Liz Bradbury and I'm here with Nan Kozul to talk to her
about her experiences in the Lehigh Valley LGBT community during this time of
the COVID-19 pandemic as a part of the Lehigh Valley LGBT Community Archive.
[Pause it?] here, hold on a minute. Okay. And thank you so much for your
willingness to speak to us again. This is part two of Nan Kozul's interview,
there were some technical difficulties the first time. So you can see part one
that I've already uploaded. So to start, Nan, can you please give us your full
00:01:00name and spell it for me?
NAN KOZUL: Nan Kozul. It's N-a-n K-o-z-u-l.
LB: And will you please share your birthdate?
NK: Five fifteen fifty-eight.
LB: Okay. Do you consent to this interview today?
NK: Yes.
LB: Do you consent to having this interview being transcribed, digitized, and
made publicly available online in searchable formats?
NK: Yes.
LB: Do you consent to the LGBT Archive using your interview for educational
purposes in other formats, including films, articles, websites, presentations,
and other formats?
NK: Yes.
LB: Do you understand that you have thirty days after the electronic delivery of
the transcript to review your interview and identify any parts you would like to
delete and/or withdraw from the project?
NK: Yes.
LB: Okay. So we started talking before, so once again this is the second part,
this is part two, of Nan Kozul's interview of talking about the HIV/AIDS
00:02:00epidemic in the nineteen eighties and nineties. So part one is already available
and I think in part one we were talking a lot about -- well, we were talking
about in general a lot of things, about some of the things you were doing and
where you were working and people that you knew. And since we talked, because of
those surprise technical difficulties, have you thought anymore about that?
Like, I thought I should have said these things, or did it make you think about
those things more? I think it was -- what do you think?
NK: Well, I realized that AIDS wasn't a quick killer. Like I saw my friends who
wound up with AIDS, they kind of -- it went slowly. I just remember some of my
friends just kind of like losing weight, and just getting sickly, but it wasn't
fast. It was just long. And what was interesting, actually one thing that I did
00:03:00think about was I remember reading an article in the eighties, in The New York
Times about reiki. And how a lot of reiki practitioners were working on AIDS
patients in New York City and finding that it really helped. Which actually
catapulted me into wanting to become a reiki master and pursue reiki. And I did
work on a few people, which was really cool, and it did work. It just calmed
them. It wasn't a -- no one was miraculously healed, it was just more of a
comforting, calming, that some of my friends felt.
LB: What kind of -- you were talking a lot about all the different things that
00:04:00happened with the bars and I think a universal theme of talking about HIV/AIDS
with regard to the Lehigh Valley in the eighties is really the involvement with
the bars. But you were talking about some people that you really knew that were
sick and people who were working through these things too. And did you want to
talk any more about some of those folks that you knew, or things that you
remembered about them, or what it was like then that people in the future could know?
NK: Well, the friends that I have know that are still positive, that are still
here living, they just live life at the fullest. Danny, I think you know Danny,
00:05:00he just was a wild and crazy guy in the eighties (laughs) and he still is today.
But him and his partner have been together, oof, probably thirty-some years. And
both are HIV but their constitution and their will to live, it's awesome. And my
friend Pete, he's just amazing. I'm so glad we got to a point where we were able
to find a cure somewhat, to be able to keep this HIV from killing so many
people. It is, it's such a relief because I think I would have lost a lot more
friends had that not happened. I think that's it as far as from what I remember
00:06:00of my friends that are still here today.
LB: What do you think -- for a lot of people at that time, and there were loads
of deaths and it was really terrible in those days, and then some people didn't
die and then some people -- what do you think was the difference there? What was
it? What do you think?
NK: That's a really good question, Liz. I used to wonder why some people
deteriorated at a much quicker time than others. It's interesting. About --
let's see, maybe ten years ago I was at Candida's and a friend of mine that --
00:07:00he started to lose weight. He was always healthy and I never knew that he was
positive. And he actually came up to the bar and he had a bag and he had a port.
And one of the -- the IV line had popped out and I saw it and he put it back in
and he said, "oh, man" and he took me to the corner of the bar. We were sitting
at a table and he was like, "you know, Nan, I actually have AIDS." And I'm like,
"wow, I never knew that about you." Because he looked so healthy. And he said,
"well, right now I have pneumonia and a nasty infection, but I have this bag and
this port and it's really helping me a lot." And I'm like, "well, that's good.
And hopefully it'll knock it out." But one of the things that unfortunately as
00:08:00AIDS -- you know, as people that carry HIV, as it progresses, I think eventually
it just wears on your organs and he wound up passing away maybe six or seven
months later. But I was shocked. I had no clue. He kept that very private and he
hadn't -- I mean, I'm sure other people knew but he had never said anything to
me. So when he talked to me about it I was shocked because he always looked
healthy, he was always fun and we always had a lot of fun together. Picnics and
stuff like that. But I think that -- I can't imagine that for anyone that was
diagnosed in the eighties that has to take that medication for prolonged use,
00:09:00inevitably I'm sure that it takes a toll on your liver and your kidneys and overall.
LB: Some people might not know what a port is. (inaudible)
NK: A port is typically a catheter that's put in a larger vein for quicker
access for medications. So that's what a port is. It's a different type of
catheter that IV medicine can be administered.
LB: I was talking to Larry Kleppinger and at the end of the interview he started
to tell me about all the wacky things that two bars did to each other.
NK: Oh, my God.
LB: Do you remember any of those? [laughter] I was talking to Trish about this
00:10:00and he was talking about all these crazy things. And then what ultimately
happened was Candida's said okay, now we've got to do something. We've got to
make this pay, in effect. So talk about that a little bit, what do you think?
NK: (laughs) That was just --
LB: The memories of --
NK: I want to tell you, Liz, it was so (laughs) -- just the things we did to
each other were -- I can actually hear Larry laughing right now because he has
such a boisterous laugh. And the things that him and the other bartenders would
do to Dina's staff, like us, it was so dastardly. (laughs) It was so funny. The
one Sunday afternoon I bartended, and I always bartended on Sunday afternoon.
And I opened the bar up. And at two o'clock no customers would be in there. So I
opened the bar up and Dina used to have "Candida's" by Tony Orlando and Dawn in
00:11:00the jukebox. It was a little forty-five RPM that he had in the jukebox. And we
had a key into the jukebox. Well, he and a couple other guys came in. And I'm
like, "hey," and they just had this look on their face, and I'm like, "what are
you guys doing?" And with that they took a chair, and they put it in the middle
of the dance floor. And I'm like, "what are you guys doing?" And they're like,
"come here, Nan." (laughs) And I'm like, "do I have a choice?" And they're like,
"no." And I sat on the chair and they tied me to the chair. (laughs) And they
went to the jukebox and stole "Candida," the record, and they left me there,
tied up. And I'm sitting there. Dina can't here me, so (laughs) I'm sitting
there, I'm like, "oh, my gosh, a customer's going to walk in and think that we
were robbed." And who walked in but Linda Mason. So Linda walks in and she goes,
00:12:00"what are you doing?" (laughs) And I'm like, "untie me" (laughs). And it was
just the funniest thing. And then one night we went commando and Dean decided we
were going to Silly String the Stonewall. We went one night and oh, my gosh. We
busted in the front doors with Silly String and just annihilated everyone that
was sitting around the bar. It was -- I want to tell you, Liz, those were some
of the greatest times of just having just so much fun. And all for a good cause,
just to eventually come down to that point where everyone got together and
created FACT. And then to have the games at Rainbow Mountain. Everyone took it
so seriously for a number of reasons: for competition and to win, but also to
00:13:00know that the end result was we were getting money and creating something to
help people. So it was really cool.
LB: Did you work at the games or did you have a table? What was that like?
NK: The games were -- (laughs) they came up with different things like drag
racing, "drag" racing where they had to put on a hat -- it was hysterical. So
there was a start and end. And there were all different kind of things, whether
it was in the pool or whether it was out in the grass, but I know the one year
that I was going to compete on Dina's team and I actually dislocated my ankle
and broke my foot. So I was in a cast so I couldn't do anything. But it was so
funny because Larry Kleppinger sent me a picture of me on my crutches at the
00:14:00games. He had a picture of me. And I'm like, "oh, my gosh." (laughs) It was so
bizarre. But it was neat. And then there was always a trophy at the end. And it
was just fun. It was so meaningful at the time because we were setting a
precedent for the future. I think that young people today get it. Back in the
eighties there was a lot of promiscuity, like crazy stuff. And the HIV epidemic
really curbed it. I just remember seeing a lot less traffic and stuff like that
coming in and out of the bar.
00:15:00
LB: How long do you think it took for people to understand that there was a tie
between promiscuity and getting the disease and then passing it around? This is
a relatively small community so one would think that if people didn't understand
how to get it, if somebody had been in New York, they got infected, they came
back, that it could really go through the community? Was there that kind of
feeling about that?
NK: Another awesome question, Liz. Just from what I saw, I thought it took quite
a few years until it really made its presence known that guys were becoming
positive. In the beginning I remember thinking in my head it was going to stop.
00:16:00(laughs) And it didn't. It went on for awhile. It took years until it really
rooted itself and guys realized, wow, we have to stop. That's --
LB: Was there a time when somebody stood up and said, "look, this is how we're
getting it, we have to stop doing this"?
NK: I didn't see that. I just saw where people just -- they would just come in
and drink and that traffic, going in and out of the bar, that just really slowed
down. And people came in and stayed and drank and then left.
LB: I think you have to explain what you mean by that.
NK: Oh, well (laughs). It was new to me. Hell, I never saw women do that
00:17:00(laughs) but guys would just hook up. I remember being behind the bar and seeing
a guy nod and (laughs) and they would talk and they would leave and they would
go out and whatever they did. And then they would come back in. And sometimes --
I know of one guy that came into the bar, he would do it a lot. I mean, I used
to -- I know there were times I wanted to say, "would you stop already? Do you
get what you're doing?" But it's not my business. And it's his life, if he
chooses to live his life like that he did. Sweet guy but [whistles] he just was
very frisky, you know. (laughs) Just to describe that, I don't know. (laughs)
00:18:00
LB: At times when people would say, "I can't believe this guy never got it"
because he was so promiscuous, and then other people -- like Dave Moyer was
saying, people who had one partner and would become positive. And I had people
say to me, "I can't believe I didn't get this." I can't either.
NK: I know. Sometimes I just -- yeah. I don't understand it either. I just
remember quite a few times in the eighties going to house parties and guys would
be throwing the house parties. And it was men and women there but I walked into
a room one time and there on TV was porn. Like male porn. And I'm like, "wow."
(laughs) I was just so new to this whole type of lifestyle. But that's how it
00:19:00was back then. I was just watching a really interesting documentary on Netflix
about gay porn and how prominent it was in the eighties. And it really was. It
was crazy. Watching that brought back memories of going to some house parties
and them having that on TV and I'm thinking, "by gosh, why would you have that
playing in an afternoon?" (laughs) But that's just how the lifestyle was back then.
LB: Yeah, I don't think you would have found that at a lesbian house party. I
think that's true.
NK: (laughs) Exactly. (laughs)
LB: I wanted to talk about what that kind of stuff that was happening and there
00:20:00were people that were in. So I'm trying to -- suddenly aware that there was an
issue. And I think I asked you before about people that were -- everybody
stepped up. I think people really stepped up. LGBT people suddenly thought,
okay, this is about us. We have to take care of each other. And people started
to really take care of each other, especially when families were ostracizing
their children, their sons who were HIV positive. Not very many in those days
got HIV in our community I don't think. I don't know. Did you know any women who
were HIV positive that you were aware of?
NK: No, even though I have to tell you, I work in a doctor's office and I marvel
00:21:00at the amount of women that are HIV now. Just having me go into their -- read
their history with the patients. I marvel at how many women are positive today.
Because you didn't see that in the eighties.
LB: But I guess what I was getting at -- and that's an interesting thing -- but
what I was getting at was, did you know people that were taking care of other
people, had a reputation that that person has taken this person into their
house. Folks like that that you were friends --?
NK: Yeah, I'm trying to think if I knew of anyone that did that. I had taken in
Don Horton but he had lymphoma. But I'm trying to think of anyone that was
00:22:00positive. You know, I remember the Stonewall was so -- the older guys, like Dave
Moyer, all those guys that frequented, they were really big caretakers. They
were involved in that aspect of caretaking. And I know Markie Cummings. Markie
helped a lot with -- she worked at the state but she really worked with Larry in
helping people get support and funding just to help to live.
LB: And that was one of the reasons that FACT started up was to help people
finance (inaudible). Because that wasn't -- in fact, I don't know that people
00:23:00really understand that FACT wasn't around to raise money for research or
something. It was direct aid.
NK: Direct aid. Absolutely, Liz. It was directly to help them. I remember when
FACT first started out I just vaguely remember people getting groceries for
people that were positive, taking them to doctor's appointments, stuff like
that. The simplest acts that was taken care of which was awesome because it's
what was needed. When there was -- I think it was such a hush-hush thing when
someone was positive because people were so afraid. Just like COVID-19. People
are so afraid of being around with someone that's positive. Like me going to the
dentist and getting my teeth cleaned and them donning gowns and masks. They
didn't know and there was such a fear that people that wound up being positive
00:24:00were really shunned if they came forward. And that was just heartbreaking.
LB: And there was a time -- were you aware of a time where people really thought
if you just went into a gay bar, you just walked around people, or you might
have been in the restroom. People thought you could get it from toilet seats, do
you remember that?
NK: Yeah, some of it was such nonsense with how you could catch AIDS. It was
idiotic. It was a blood-borne thing. And I was -- it was transmission through
blood. So I remember Johnny, this one guy that lived in Philly, we all kissed
00:25:00him. And it wasn't like, oh boy, now we're going to get AIDS. It was a shame and
I think that was a huge stigma in the Valley. People didn't walk into a gay bar
because I'm sure that hung in their minds, like ooh, you'd better watch it
because you can get AIDS. And like you said, like a toilet seat. Like wow. It
was the fear. It just went -- it was out of control. It had to be tough for
people that were positive.
LB: There was a time that people really didn't know where it came from but too
much information -- one of the whole things about HIV/AIDS and the government
and everything is that no one spoke about it publicly in the government for
about, well, some of the guys were saying -- I think it was Larry who was saying
00:26:00he was really angry at the government for not saying anything about it until
about nineteen eighty-eight, nineteen eighty-seven. Here it had been eight --
seven, eight years, and one thing about we didn't have social media, so we
didn't have any way to share information, even though people will say
disparaging things about the way things are today, we do really get information
today. It's not like COVID-19 that nobody really knows where it came from, which
is what happened in the flu epidemic of nineteen-eighteen. People didn't really
know what to do about it. And I think at the beginning of the AIDS epidemic, at
the very beginning, people like Trish knew. Health care professionals really had
no idea where it was coming from or how people got it. And they wouldn't talk
about it, too. Were you seeing that kind of thing? There must have been a
00:27:00changed time where people were saying, "okay, look, this is how you get it. You
get it from having anal sex. That's why you have to wear condoms." It must have
been uncommon.
NK: Yeah, I think that happened in the later eighties, where that actually came
into fruition when they were just stating that. Rachel Maddow interviewed the
scientist who came up with the cure for HIV and he was really, really cool to
listen to because he was so tenacious. He worked around the clock trying to
00:28:00figure out a cure because he knew that it would wipe out millions if let go. And
we're so blessed that we had that scientist just be so driven to find that cure.
LB: I don't know if it's a cure.
NK: Well, it's not a cure, but it --
LB: It keeps people from dying, let's put it that way.
NK: Right. It keeps the count down. Yeah.
LB: There must be twenty people dying at the beginning of the epidemic in six
months and then improving forty years (inaudible).
NK: I'm just curious, my friends that are HIV today, how they'll fare moving
00:29:00forward. Some of them are in their sixties, early-mid sixties, late sixties, and
they're still plugging along (laughs) so it's really awesome to know that that
medication was able to keep the numbers down that they're not symptomatic.
LB: When people were dying -- I think I was asking you this before -- were those
people that you knew? Like one person I was interviewing was talking about how
having to go to all those funerals, it just got to be too much. It was so hard
to keep doing that. Do you have a memory of that?
NK: You know, I don't. I just remember people getting -- some of the guys
getting sicker, becoming more frail, and then I didn't see them anymore. And
00:30:00that's how they -- because I was very active in the bar scene, working pretty
much fulltime at the bar. So I would see guys coming in that were positive and
as they became more ill they came in less and less and less and then they were
replaced by new people. The traffic was always busy because in the eighties you
didn't have straight bars that accepted gay people. Not like today where you can
go into pretty much any straight bar and have fun. But back in the eighties you
stuck to your bar (laughs). You stuck to the gay bars where you could feel safe.
But I don't remember that. I definitely remember people coming into the bar and
00:31:00saying this person died, or that person died, and I'm like, wow.
LB: What were the other bars? There was Jeff's. Tell me about Jeff's. I went to
Jeff's maybe all of one time and then it was kind of not there. I think I came
to the Lehigh Valley in nineteen eighty-seven so I think I went one time. And
then I met Trish and we weren't really hitting bars but it was right then when
we met. But what was that bar? I don't think it was there much longer after
nineteen eighty-seven or eight. Is that true?
NK: No. That's funny because I actually (laughs) googled it because I was
curious, like, wow, when did Jeff close his bar? Because I couldn't remember
when he closed it. I know it was up for eighty-eight, eighty-nine, and then it
00:32:00closed. And then Diamonds opened up in ninety-two I think. So the only bars --
and Jeff's [Cityline?] Pub was frequented by guys and girls. It was a mixed bar.
But Candida's and Stonewall were primarily gay men with a splattering of women
here and there.
LB: I think the first or second time I went to Candida's Suzanne Westenhoefer
was doing a show. Do you remember that? You were probably there I'm sure.
Everyone was there. Every woman in the -- that was -- I don't think I was even
involved in the community yet then, I didn't really start being involved until
00:33:00nineteen ninety-four. It was before ninety-four I'm pretty sure. (inaudible)
NK: What's that?
LB: That was one of the best nights I've ever had when I was involved in that
kind of stuff. (inaudible)
NK: What?
LB: Was she there more than once?
NK: I don't know. I know that she was at Dina's bar and I know that she was at
Diamonds. And Lea DeLaria. But I can't remember if she was. Now, I left
Candida's in eighty-eight and I came back in nineteen-ninety. Yeah, because I
think that's when I worked at Jeff's Cityline Pub. But Suzanne Westenhoefer,
she's still around. I've watched some of --
00:34:00
LB: [We're Facebook friends?].
NK: Pardon?
LB: She's my Facebook friend.
NK: Is she? (laughs)
LB: Yeah.
NK (laughs) That's awesome.
LB: She was famous then. She was famous. For some reason she was doing a gig
where there were three other lesbian comedians and there were so many people in
the bar. So many lesbians. There must have been two-hundred women in the bar. I
think we were just standing up for an hour and a half or something. That was something.
NK: (laughs) It's crazy. Dina's bar was so -- Candida's was a small bar but I
just remember how much of a family -- like we were talking. It was such a
family. We did such things in that bar that were just so crazy. Like just fun
00:35:00things that it would be wall to wall people. Like you could not move. And it was
just amazing. And we accepted everybody. And that's what was so great about
Candida's. And even during that time when HIV was prominent there was never
anyone that was shunned. And that's the beauty of what gay people are about
because we are so loving and so accepting, do you know what I mean?
LB: Yeah, I do.
NK: And it created a nurturing place that people knew that they could come and
they would be loved.
LB: Did you ever have a circumstance -- and this happened to me -- a
circumstance where you were talking to somebody about HIV who was not in the
00:36:00know and they said negative things about it and you said, "that's not true."
That kind of thing. Did that ever happen to you, where people --?
NK: Not in the bar.
LB: I mean anytime in your experience.
NK: Oh, in anytime? Oh, yeah. (laughs) People were just -- I mean, before they
came out with the -- about it being transferred through anal sex, they were -- I
would hear people say, "no, you can get it from spit, you can get it from
kissing, you can get it from touching." And I'm like, "no, you can't. If that
was the case, we'd all be HIV." You know what I mean? Sometimes it's just common
sense. But again, fear just ruled a lot of people. Especially straight people.
LB: Do you remember -- I think right when Clinton was first elected, so that was
00:37:00into the nineties, but there was a letter sent that went out to every person in
the United States that explained where you got HIV and why. And it was to remove
stigma, to make people understand that you couldn't just get it. You couldn't
fire somebody for being HIV positive. That was included in the Civil Rights Act.
And I remember my father was a very smart man, very, very smart man. Absolutely
did not know anything about -- and when he gets the letter, I said, "well, did
you read the letter?" And he said, "well, yeah, how would I even know this?" And
I'm like, "how would you know this? I've known it for five years already." And
it wasn't just because I was --
NK: Wow.
LB: -- and he was -- I mean, this was a guy who did The New York Times crossword
puzzle every day and he still had no idea. He thought you could get it at the
00:38:00salad bar or something like that. And I think that we as people who are part of
the LGBT community don't always understand how out of the know so many people
were. That people should have known better and you just -- how could you not
know this? And one time, it's hard to not be. Did you think there was a
circumstance where people were judgmental when people got it and they'd say --
did you ever find people in the community being judgmental of each other if
people --?
NK: Actually, I didn't, and that, to me, I thought that was really beautiful
that no one judged anybody. At least I didn't find that. Bartending at Candida's
I didn't. Or even the Stonewall. It was just a happy place to go to. And you had
00:39:00those interjections of sadness when someone was positive or someone passed away.
But for the most part, the gay bars in Lehigh Valley were just an escape for
people to just meet where they knew that it was like-minded and they would be
liked and cared for and talked to, where you didn't feel lonely in your life if
you were. You could go to the gay bar and feel safe.
LB: We're coming down to a little bit of time left because we did the first
part, so since this is part two and you said some great, really interesting
things in part one. Was there anything else that you thought of or you said to
00:40:00Barb, "hey, I forgot to talk about this, this is something that I've thought of
since we talked."
NK: Well, I remembered after we were done talking, I said to Barb, wow, I forgot
to tell Liz about the New York Times article about the reiki because in the
eighties it was all about being spiritual (laughs) and just tapping into your
quiet place and reiki was a great modality. People didn't understand it but I
thought it was really progressive for The New York Times to have such a big
article and how impacted a lot of the gay men and giving them a moment of peace
or calm by just administering reiki to them. That was really awesome. But that's
I thought of after we broke the last time. But I feel so blessed to be able to
00:41:00be a part -- remember, I said to Dina I would never want to redo the eighties
because there were some sad times but there were so many good times. And I think
it was because we were all interconnected. We all felt safe. What's really funny
is because I bartended in the gay bars for so many years, I mean I bartended at
the Stonewall, I bartended at Candida's and Jeff's Cityline Pub, 13th Street Pub
in Easton, I mean I tended Rainbow Mountain, I went down to New Hope and I
bartended there sometimes. And so being in that community, it allowed me to just
be myself and just have fun. And I remember (laughs) finally actually moving. I
00:42:00wound up managing a straight bar that was the sister to the Chicken Lounge. It
was Marble's down in Phillipsburg. And it was the first time that I was out of
my gay element. And I didn't realize that when you're in that, working in a gay
bar and feeling so safe around men, you're going to feel safe that men aren't
going to hit on you if you call them "hon" or "dear." And that was a huge shift
for me because all of a sudden I found guys treating me differently. And I'm
like, what is this. And I forgot. When you're around gay men you feel safe
(laughs) because there's no pretense there. It's interesting.
LB: I remember one time Trish and I were leaving Candida's and something
00:43:00happened. We had a friend, Judy Art, who lives right around the corner. She
still lives there, right around the corner from Candida's. Trish had to go in
and talk to her and then there was some kids that were giving us a hard time.
And guys came out of the bar and they were there for us in about two seconds.
And it is true. But there is one other thing that we have to remember about the
eighties besides all of that stuff that made it so much fun. And it was because
we were young. (laughs)
NK: Yeah, that's true. (laughs)
LB: We weren't in our sixties then. We were --
NK: Nope, no we weren't. (laughs)
LB: The bars that are like that -- there's no bars that are like that anymore.
NK: Not anymore. You know, Liz, this is a true story. I was bartending one
Sunday afternoon, and it was probably eighty-seven, eighty-eight. I was
00:44:00bartending and these three guys came in. Older, like middle-aged guys. And they
sat at the bar so I was talking to them, and they were like, "why are you
friendly to us?" And I'm like, "what do you mean?" And they were like, "well,
why are you nice to us?" And I'm like, "well, why wouldn't I be nice to you?
Where are you from?" And they said, "well, we're from Connecticut, and in
Connecticut, there's women's bars and men's bars, and women don't talk to us gay
men." And I'm like, "well, that's not how it is in the Lehigh Valley." (laughs)
"Why would you discriminate, we're already discriminated against through sex,
like men and women. Why would there be a division?" I said, "no, that's not how
we are in the Lehigh Valley. We all work together." And they were like, "wow."
They were blown away by that.
LB: Do you think that that's because -- I think there was a big difference
00:45:00between the seventies and the eighties in terms of the division between men's
bars -- men's and women's bars -- because I went to a woman's bar. And I talk
about this all the time and now I can't think of the name. It's in Baltimore and
it was --
NK: In New York?
LB: Club Mitchell. It was in Baltimore. And this was a bar that would not allow
men in unless they knew the men. And there was a reason for that because in the
seventies there was guys, straight guys would come in and really cause problems
for the women. I mean, really scary problems for the women.
NK: Wow.
LB: So if they knew gay men they would let them come in. But because of the AIDS
epidemic and because of those circumstances, women who are lesbians really rose
00:46:00to help and support the gay men community.
NK: I agree. I agree totally, Liz. I'm with you on that. And it helped, too,
that when Dina opened her bar she was so interconnected with so many of the
older gay men, like the old guys (laughs) that it created such a great
foundation. It was just natural. And when HIV rose and came to prominence we all
just banded together and took care of each other.
LB: Because a lot of people who were involved with this FACT events, may not
have been the board of FACT, but the FACT events, were women too. They were
doing (inaudible), don't you think? Dina was so involved in that.
00:47:00
NK: Sure she was. And then you have Gail Hoover, she was a realtor forever. So
there was all those ties into everybody all just getting together to do the best
they could to raise as much money as they could.
LB: Well, great. So anything else that you want to toss in there?
NK: You know, Liz, thanks for giving me this opportunity. I don't know how much
I shared, (laughs) whether was -- (inaudible) but it was a lot of fun. And just
even bringing up Larry Kleppinger's name just brings back such -- my heart is
just filled with joy because that man is just a hoot and a half. He was just so
much fun. And he's just such a great guy. But I appreciate it, Liz.
00:48:00
LB: One of the things that people need to understand, I think, is that in the
nineteen-eighties, while we did have just the beginnings of some other groups
that weren't bar-oriented, like we had GLOSS, that sports group, and Force was
kind of starting up, and MCC had been going for awhile. And then we had the
League -- Gay and Lesbian Task -- or Lehigh Valley Gay and Lesbian Task Force.
And then just after that we started PA-GALA. And there had been Le-Hi-Ho, which
had been both men and women. But really in the eighties, the only thing that was
really going in the eighties was the bars. And if the bars hadn't existed,
nothing else would have come out of that because that's where people started out
where they started to make --
NK: Wow. That's so true. When did your Valley Press come out, when did that come out?
LB: Valley Gay Press, we started the Valley Gay Press in nineteen-- so Trish and
00:49:00I met Steve Black in nineteen ninety-four and we began to work on political
stuff with him that year. I think we started the Valley Gay Press in nineteen
ninety-eight. So it wasn't until ninety-eight. We were doing voter's guide
information for about three years but he had been -- we sort of knew him, we
knew him from the Pride Festival. We met him at the first Pride Festival. But at
the same time there was that effort to start the Gay and Lesbian Task Force that
was running in the Lehigh Valley for a little while. But what happened with that
was that people tended to be -- there was no focus of it. And there was no -- I
think that people just ended up to be -- because this is the point. FACT had an
extraordinary focus. Everybody knew what had to be done and they did it. But for
00:50:00general stuff, even Le-Hi-Ho became AIDS Services Center because people had to
deal with AIDS. They had to deal. But also that really codified our folks
together. It made us all begin to work together. And the very first thing that
Trish and I did that was part of the LGBT life here, because we've been here
since eighty-seven together, was that we went to an event that was put on by
FACT, that if you went that flamingo ice cream place that some of the money
would go to -- and the Red Ribbon Restaurant thing. They were doing that and all
of those things were happening at the very beginning of FACT. They were doing
00:51:00lots of different events and we got involved with that. But out of the bars also
grew that thing of going to the March on Washington in nineteen ninety-three
because the bars organized the buses. We went on our own and people came back
and said now we have to have the Pride Festival. And I think everything changed
because people could see that the organizational circumstances of FACT could
happen. That people could do this and that there were a lot of people who were
willing to be involved. And that really came out of the bars' response to AIDS.
I think that's really --
NK: Yeah, you're right. They truly were the foundation of everything getting
started. At least getting the community involved where everyone met. Wow, that's
so true. I just remember when you would bring in your newsletters from the Gay
00:52:00-- how quickly they would go. People just waited for them to come in (laughs)
and then they'd scarf 'em and they were gone. (laughs) Yeah.
LB: Well, I'm going to thank you again, and I'm just going to turn this off
since we're okay.
NK: Okay.
LB: I'm going to turn this off and I'm going to turn off the recording, but
thank you again, Nan. This has just been --
NK: Thanks so much, Liz. (laughs)
LB: I'm going to turn off the -- no, I have to turn off -- oh, it says stop
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